The Sean Gerety / Trinity Foundation / Luba BLOWUP

[bauerpauer]

Hello. I recently transfered to a christian school to get away from the problems in public high school. Upon transferring we had our first chapel service yesterday and i must say it was rather disturbing... Most of the students were worshipping with their arms waving in their air... mostly dancing.. some dropping to their knees and muttering things to themselves.. but it was not right i coulnd't put my finger on it but it seemed.... i'm not sure wha tto say or wether or not to judge but can anybody provide me with some direction on this issue.

[wildboar]

It's difficult to find good Christian schools. Some are poor theologically, many of those who are theologically better do a very poor job with education. There's nothing wrong with raising our hands in worship to God (don't tell those staunch Dutch people about those Bible passages where people lift their hands to God) but alot of times it can become showy and emotion driven and it certainly sounds from your description that it is. Sometimes even the best theologically have students who engage in activities worse than that in public schools.

You might want to stick the year out and try to find somewhere better next year (depending upon what year you are in). There's an LCMS affiliated High School in Kansas City that you might want to look into: http://www.lhskc.com/ You might want to ask for recommendations at the church you are attending. Some have had good experiences at the "conservative" Baptist high schools (you just have to put up with all the legalism).

[ray kikkert]

Hello. I recently transfered to a christian school to get away from the problems in public high school. Upon transferring we had our first chapel service yesterday and i must say it was rather disturbing... Most of the students were worshipping with their arms waving in their air... mostly dancing.. some dropping to their knees and muttering things to themselves.. but it was not right i coulnd't put my finger on it but it seemed.... i'm not sure wha tto say or wether or not to judge but can anybody provide me with some direction on this issue.

This is pathetic worship. Reverence for the Lord is replaced by the vain philosophy of men.

I am against the waving of hands in the air and more apt to swat such folks up side the head with the waving of my hand. These are the outward vanities of the Pharisee. Muttering, clucking, barking all need to be rebuked and admonished.

Be ye holy for I am holy says the Lord. This is the product of men based on the emotion and feelings of the vessel, not the doctrine of the Lord.

Regardless an opportunity to witness to folks by yourself.

[lionovjudah]

This is pathetic worship. Reverence for the Lord is replaced by the vain philosophy of men.

I am against the waving of hands in the air and more apt to swat such folks up side the head with the waving of my hand. These are the outward vanities of the Pharisee. Muttering, clucking, barking all need to be rebuked and admonished.

Be ye holy for I am holy says the Lord. This is the product of men based on the emotion and feelings of the vessel, not the doctrine of the Lord.

Regardless an opportunity to witness to folks by yourself.

Well does not Paul command us to worship lifting Holy Hands? The barking and the clucking are ridiculous. But shouting Amen, lifting up ones hands are absolutley in line with Spirit led worship, unless of course you are in a congregation of extra starched dutch who know how to sit and kneel, "Decently and in order".

Ray, reverance for the Lord does not equal solemn and sickly looking faces. Now that is pharasitical. Those who want you to know they are fasting, wearing long tassles on their robes!!!!!

I would love to see more excitement in our services. All signs of emotion does not equal vain emotionalism.

You also forgot to label this as arminianism, youre slipping ray.

[ray kikkert]

Well does not Paul command us to worship lifting Holy Hands? The barking and the clucking are ridiculous. But shouting Amen, lifting up ones hands are absolutley in line with Spirit led worship, unless of course you are in a congregation of extra starched dutch who know how to sit and kneel, "Decently and in order".

Ray, reverance for the Lord does not equal solemn and sickly looking faces. Now that is pharasitical. Those who want you to know they are fasting, wearing long tassles on their robes!!!!!

I would love to see more excitement in our services. All signs of emotion does not equal vain emotionalism.

You also forgot to label this as arminianism, youre slipping ray.

Not overly surprised by the comments Joe , and as one as yourself who has membership in the RCA( where robes are indeed worn)..... the fence straddling response was expected.

[lionovjudah]

Not overly surprised by the comments Joe , and as one as yourself who has membership in the RCA( where robes are indeed worn)..... the fence straddling response was expected.

Well it is scriptural what I wrote Ray. I need to ask one thign though. WHy is everything funneled to the following with you?

1) Arminianism
2) babble
3) Fence straddling.

Just because you call it that, does not make it that Ray.

Until one can show me emotions are not to be part of our worship, lifting up holy hands and shouting amen is vanity and sin, I will do it and encourage others as well. Like I said, "Decent and in order: has been perverted to mean "Stale, quiet, solemn, stern, serious, DEAD"

Please point out the fence I am straddling. I do not feel it.

Lift up your hands the next service and yell amen. DO you think they would want to perform an exeorcism on you?

Perhaps you would have been those who complained on pentacost that they were drunk!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ray kikkert]

Well it is scriptural what I wrote Ray. I need to ask one thign though. WHy is everything funneled to the following with you?

No Scripture text was referenced.

1) Arminianism
2) babble
3) Fence straddling.

Just because you call it that, does not make it that Ray.

Your are right Joe, this is man by nature.

Until one can show me emotions are not to be part of our worship, lifting up holy hands and shouting amen is vanity and sin, I will do it and encourage others as well. Like I said, "Decent and in order: has been perverted to mean "Stale, quiet, solemn, stern, serious, DEAD"

Is that what they teach over at the RCA?

Please point out the fence I am straddling. I do not feel it.

Due to the numbing process of constant fence straddling.

Lift up your hands the next service and yell amen. DO you think they would want to perform an exeorcism on you?

I would not know Joe, I have no interest in going to a Catholic or RCA church.

Perhaps you would have been those who complained on pentacost that they were drunk!!!!!!!!!!!!

More importantly one of these that the Lord called..... , "Now when they heard this they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Acts 2:37

[lionovjudah]

No Scripture text was referenced.

1 Tim 2:8 Read it Ray.

I desire therefore that the men pray in every place, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and disputing.


Physical posture or actions are not a requirement for worship Ray. But to blatantly attack some overcome by emotions that are spirit led, and cast them as vain inventions of man is false.


There is nothing wrong with lifting you and waving our hands when we pray/worship and shouting AMEN!!!!!!

here are some other scriptures for you to read.

1Kgs. 8:22; Isa. 1:15

Job. 11:13-14; Psa. 63:4

If thou set thy heart aright, And stretch out thy hands toward him; (ASV)


So will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name. (ASV)

[GraceAmbassador]

This is pathetic worship. Reverence for the Lord is replaced by the vain philosophy of men.

I am against the waving of hands in the air and more apt to swat such folks up side the head with the waving of my hand. These are the outward vanities of the Pharisee. Muttering, clucking, barking all need to be rebuked and admonished.

Be ye holy for I am holy says the Lord. This is the product of men based on the emotion and feelings of the vessel, not the doctrine of the Lord.

Regardless an opportunity to witness to folks by yourself.

Ray, you can ignore scripture about lifting of hands, that's ok! Most of us pick the Bible selectively anyway.

In the other "hand" however (no pun intended), can you show us WHY lifting of hands, waving in the air and other things are offensive to God's Holiness?
Be careful, I am asking for scriptures; not confessionals or traditions.

Also, would you please tell us why ANYONE should leave a very important part of God's creation in us, namely OUR EMOTIONS, aside when we worship God? Why do we show emotions in every area of our lives, especially, but not limited to, when in sports events, or when we see a loved one that we had not seen for a long time, but when it comes to our relationship with God we are so controlled that our SPONTANEITY is totally gone?

When we discussed about "alcohol and tobacco" I was asked (not by you) to post scriptures here that proved that those things are wrong. Now I want to bring the same burden of proof to the issue of "lifting one's hands" when praying or singing and "showing emotions". Just as one must not allow him to be controlled by alcohol, one must not be controlled by emotions; I am aware of that. But, just as much alcohol when controlled and in moderation is ok, why wouldn't be something that God built in us, such as emotions?

Have you ever read in the Bible that:

Micah, David's wife - was punished with barrenness because she despised and mocked David's emotions?

That when a woman loudly glorified God and wiped Jesus' feet, Jesus said it was ok for her to show emotions?

That one of the lepers that Jesus' healed came back praising God with a "loud voice" and Jesus did not say: Shhhhhh, don't shame the dutch reformed, you're not supposed to be loud...?

I don't want to get on the charismatic issue here. I have done enough of that and my opinion has been clearly stated throughout this Forum. I just want people to realize that the same criticism they direct to those who "lift their hands" in singing (I prefer not to use the term "worship" so as to avoid all the doctrinal load attached to this word), and for people who are loud (Psalm 100) when they do celebrate the Lord (again, the word "worship" is not being used by me), this very same criticism, can be directed at those cold blooded, tough upper lipped, heartless, un-emotional stiffs whose services resemble more the funeral of some town "war lord" than a real celebration of God's blessings.

We should criticize neither for the same reason that I don't criticize the people who get an electric shock and scream to their lungs, and I don't criticize people who when they get an electrical shock just say silently "ouch".

I just want a bit of reflection from you and the why you consider these things to be against God's Holiness.

Lifting my hands and shouting Hallelujah,

Milt

Milt

[ray kikkert]

Ray, you can ignore scripture about lifting of hands, that's ok! Most of us pick the Bible selectively anyway.

The comments were not made out of selectivity , but for bringing attention to one's self , over reverance to the Lord in Spirit and truth. The Spirit and truth business is not what I have problems with. It is the part and parcel events that go along with it.

In the other "hand" however (no pun intended), can you show us WHY lifting of hands, waving in the air and other things are offensive to God's Holiness?

I have no problem with the Scripture texts cited. I have problems with attention grabbers.

Be careful, I am asking for scriptures; not confessionals or traditions.

Joe's reference texts were ligit.

Also, would you please tell us why ANYONE should leave a very important part of God's creation in us, namely OUR EMOTIONS, aside when we worship God?

When emotion trumps the doctrine of the Lord.

Why do we show emotions in every area of our lives, especially, but not limited to, when in sports events, or when we see a loved one that we had not seen for a long time, but when it comes to our relationship with God we are so controlled that our SPONTANEITY is totally gone?

Those events will show themselves for either the truthfulness or fakeness within it. Again emotion does not trump doctrine.

When we discussed about "alcohol and tobacco" I was asked (not by you) to post scriptures here that proved that those things are wrong. Now I want to bring the same burden of proof to the issue of "lifting one's hands" when praying or singing and "showing emotions". Just as one must not allow him to be controlled by alcohol, one must not be controlled by emotions; I am aware of that. But, just as much alcohol when controlled and in moderation is ok, why wouldn't be something that God built in us, such as emotions.

Again "in Spirit and truth" not to bring attention to one's self.

Have you ever read in the Bible that:

Micah, David's wife - was punished with barrenness because she despised and mocked David's emotions?

That when a woman loudly glorified God for a miracle she received from Jesus, and was rebuked by the disciples, Jesus said it was ok for her to show emotions?

I don't want to get on the charismatic issue here. I have done enough of that and my opinion has been clearly stated throughout this Forum. I just want people to realize that the same criticism they direct to those who "lift their hands" in singing (I prefer not to use the term "worship" so as to avoid all the doctrinal load attached to this word), and for people who are loud (Psalm 100) when they do celebrate the Lord (again, the word "worship" is not being used by me), this very same criticism, can be directed at those cold blooded, tough upper lipped, heartless, un-emotional stiffs whose services resemble more the funeral of some town "war lord" than a real celebration of God's blessings.

Your admonishment is noted. I on the other hand dealt with the post at hand namely " emotion based/ charismatic/ pentecostal" and in that light , posted in that regard with what the poster indicated.

We should criticize neither for the same reason that I don't criticize the people who get an electric shock and scream to their lungs, and I don't criticize people who when they get an electrical shock just say silently "ouch".

One can distinquish between "real" and that which is "fake".

I just want a bit of reflection from you and the why you consider these things to be against God's Holiness.

Lifting my hands and shouting Hallelujah,

Milt

Milt

reflection given, answers given, admonishment heeded.

[GraceAmbassador]

The comments were not made out of selectivity , but for bringing attention to one's self , over reverance to the Lord in Spirit and truth. The Spirit and truth business is not what I have problems with. It is the part and parcel events that go along with it.

I have no problem with the Scripture texts cited. I have problems with attention grabbers.

I agree. There is a lot of attention grabblers; but, how can I tell who is indeed doing this in the Spirit or in "spirit"? I believe here one more time we have to allow the tares grow up with the wheat and seek to exercise ecclesiastical discipline.

When emotion trumps the doctrine of the Lord.

I fully agree with this one. Most of the services where "emotions" run rampant, the study of the word is left to a secondary, at best, position, if not completly ignored. It is up to the leader of the service to exercise some leadership. (I could write a book on that one).

Those events will show themselves for either the truthfulness or fakeness within it. Again emotion does not trump doctrine.

I refer my right and honorable brother to the reply a gave a few lines above.

Your admonishment is noted. I on the other hand dealt with the post at hand namely " emotion based/ charismatic/ pentecostal" and in that light , posted in that regard with what the poster indicated.

reflection given, answers given, admonishment heeded.

Thank you! Your honesty and openness is also noted.

Milt

[harald]

Milt,

I do not see that this "wheat and tare" thing applies to the household management of the mystery. Christ spoke those words and it did not have bearing on the Body, which was a mystery until revealed to and through Paul. Paul does not repeat this wheat and tare thing, but gives quite clear marching orders to the Body of the Christ and its local manifestations. In conjunction with this I must say I've for some reason always had an unexplicable problem with the application of the wheat and tare parable to this present dispensation. Now I know why I have had it. It applied to the Kingdom program.

Harald

[GraceAmbassador]

Milt,

I do not see that this "wheat and tare" thing applies to the household management of the mystery. Christ spoke those words and it did not have bearing on the Body, which was a mystery until revealed to and through Paul. Paul does not repeat this wheat and tare thing, but gives quite clear marching orders to the Body of the Christ and its local manifestations. In conjunction with this I must say I've for some reason always had an unexplicable problem with the application of the wheat and tare parable to this present dispensation. Now I know why I have had it. It applied to the Kingdom program.

Harald

Sorry Harald! You are correct!
My mentioning of the "wheat and tares" applying to the issue at hand was just because I failed to find another comparison for the undue effort in trying to identify that which is "real" and "fake", exclusively as it pertains to this issue. I could only have said: "Since we can't read minds, as long as people don't use of manifestations not sanctioned by Paul's writings, we should refrain from attempting to identify and distinguish that which is real and that which is not leaving it up to the leader of the service to exercice Pauline discipline to the Body in curbing off carnal exaggerations". It was not an attempt to bring an undue passage to the ledger of discussions.

Thanks for your interjection!

Milt

[Tobias Crisp]

Milt,

I do not see that this "wheat and tare" thing applies to the household management of the mystery. Christ spoke those words and it did not have bearing on the Body, which was a mystery until revealed to and through Paul. Paul does not repeat this wheat and tare thing, but gives quite clear marching orders to the Body of the Christ and its local manifestations. In conjunction with this I must say I've for some reason always had an unexplicable problem with the application of the wheat and tare parable to this present dispensation. Now I know why I have had it. It applied to the Kingdom program.

Harald

Harald, you are not going to like what I'm going to say. In all honesty I grow tired of this hyperistic dispensational division of the Scriptures. The Kingdom program as you call it is centered in the Gospel of God's sovereign grace. It is not separated into a pre and post Acts 2 "mystery body" silliness. I don't mean to be offensive but come on man, where do you get some of this stuff? I find it a distraction to the pure Gospel.

I don't see why the wheat and the tares parable is made to be so difficult. It refers to the world and not the church perse. What am I missing?

[harald]

Milt,

No problem. I am content that we seem to agree on this. I did not mean to be nitpicky on you. Not that you in any way charged me. But I know myself sometimes may sound thus.


Harald

[harald]

Anthony,

I am not offended with what you say. I am beginning to get used to prejudice to "dispensationalism" in general. Much of it may relate to now knowing the distinctions between the many brands thereof. Dispensationalism, generally as well as specifically, is often misrepresented.

As for me I am no Acts 2 dispensationalist. Rather Mid-Acts. But for all that, being a "dispensationalist" when it comes to ecclesiology (and some other things), it does not mean that I endorse what errors some dispies have held to, like the heresy that OT saints were "saved by law keeping" as distinct from NT saints being "saved through faith" (as they say). I am no friend of Scofield.

If you do have a real problem with "the body of the Christ" being a mystery then I must feel really sorry for you. Because it is by Paul referred to as a mystery. It was never the subject of OT prophecy. The body of the Christ had no existence before Paul's conversion, except in the purpose and decree of God, of course.

One must learn to make the distinction between the Kingdom program and the program for Christ's very Body. The Kingdom program has no bearing on this present age of the Body of the Christ. If it had then those that are God-appointed to proclaim God's gospel would have to command "be baptized all of you unto" etc., and there would be allowed no delay as respects baptism. This just one example. But how many professed "preachers of the gospel" today do command like this, and baptize without delay? Not many. So, if they purport to obey the Kingdom gospel program they fail miserably.

If looking at the pure soteriological and christological content of Paul's and Peter's gospels respectively, then they are quite the same, except that Paul goes into more details. Paul's gospel is by himself called "my gospel", and, "the gospel of the uncircumcision". Peter's is called (by Paul) the gospel of the circumcision. The Body of the Christ and "the mystery" are exclusively Pauline concepts. The same applies to "the household management of the undeserved favour of God", Eph. 3.


Harald

[Yoder]

The problem with raising your hands during service is that it is usually in response to a feel good 'spiritual' song that is man centered and devoid of any doctrine or teaching. With most of these songs, replace the name God or Jesus with boyfriend and you have yourself a love song.

(I get up in the morning and brush my hair because I can't wait to see you.......(wait for it).... Jesus!!!!)

The waiving of hands or excitement should be in response to good teaching and doctrine. Unfortunately people just want to feel good, told they are good people, listen to some jamming music and have their felt needs met.

Listen to the music that is being played in some of your churches. It is scripturally weak and devoid of any real meat. When did we come to a place where it is OK to sit there and "worship" to this babble? (<---that one was for you Ray.)

Dave

[lionovjudah]

The problem with raising your hands during service is that it is usually in response to a feel good 'spiritual' song that is man centered and devoid of any doctrine or teaching. With most of these songs, replace the name God or Jesus with boyfriend and you have yourself a love song.

David:

I agree 100% with you on this. This issue I was discussing with Ray was all hand rasing, clapping, shouting Amens is nto man centered attention grabbing "BABBLE"

The posture for worship is not commanded, the intent is. Is it God centered or man centered? COuld you imagine David dancing naked in front of some Dutch stiff, starched , "proper-decent-and in order" calvinist? I guarantee they would respond as micah did. So many want to squelch excitement people have for the Lord because of the junk we see on TV now. It is a shame.

[GraceAmbassador]

The problem with raising your hands during service is that it is usually in response to a feel good 'spiritual' song that is man centered and devoid of any doctrine or teaching. With most of these songs, replace the name God or Jesus with boyfriend and you have yourself a love song.

(I get up in the morning and brush my hair because I can't wait to see you.......(wait for it).... Jesus!!!!)

The waiving of hands or excitement should be in response to good teaching and doctrine. Unfortunately people just want to feel good, told they are good people, listen to some jamming music and have their felt needs met.

Listen to the music that is being played in some of your churches. It is scripturally weak and devoid of any real meat. When did we come to a place where it is OK to sit there and "worship" to this babble? (<---that one was for you Ray.)

Dave

This used to be truth some 15 years ago when the songs were composed by some people who probably read the Bible very little and wrote songs with tremendous doctrinal errors. Especially in the 1800's when Southern Gospel became more popular we had songs such as "There is a NEW name written in the Glory", "Hold to God's unchanging hand", "Is there all in the altar of sacrifice laid", and many others that I could mention that the very principle they proclaim in poetry is borderline heretical. The Mennonites and a few other denominations still sing these "hymns" as if they are the truth.

Thankfully, God took care of that and inspired some good men and women of His to put music in the Psalms and other Biblical texts and also God restored some of the singing of the early 1600 and 1700 that were closely related to the theology taught by the reformers. If one raises their hands in one of their singing "feeling good", GREAT, in my opinion because they are agreeing in surrender to the message of the Word of God itself.

What amazes me is that people who feel uncomfortable with the raising of hands and waving of hands in churches always say: "if it would be for this or that it would be OK.". However, I wave and raise my hands to good Bible study, I whisper Praise God or Hallelujah when the teacher makes a great blessed point and still there are criticism...

I believe that we should react to the issue of raising our hands not based upon "when" or "why" we should raise our hands but whether we are responding to an Apostolic command. We can't say that the bad justifies us avoiding the good. We can't say that because some do it in error we will not pursue doing it in accordance to the Word of God. I don't believe this is a valid excuse for not obeying God's commands. It is the same as watching someone using a washing machine as a blender, and when whatever he wanted to blend didn't come out right, we say to ourselves: "I will never buy a washing machine because it does not work as a blender."

Milt

[Mickey]

I prefer to lay prostrate not moving a muscle. The only thing is it’s easy to fall asleep!