Did Christ die for all or just the elect?

[Ron151]

Most evangelical churches today say that Jesus loves you over the tv airwaves to anyone watching. Also that he died just for you. But is this really scriptural? I have always believed the bible teaches that the Father elected a certain mass of people called the elect and Christ came to bear their sins on the cross.I Pet 2:24

All who are the elect of the Father will be drawn by the Holy Spirit through the call of the gospel to Christ. This to me cannot be true for those who are non believers, especially atheists and millions of others who are Muslims in the world. And most of these non believers live and die in this state.

What do you say? And why isn't this taught more in fundamental evangelical churches today? I attend a church where Christ is offered as a "provisional sacrifice for one's sins for the whole world, but only those who receive Christ are actually forgiven? In other words no one's sins are actually removed until they believe. This is now the norm in most churches today. What do you say about this?

[Tobias Crisp]

Most evangelical churches today say that Jesus loves you over the tv airwaves to anyone watching. Also that he died just for you. But is this really scriptural? I have always believed the bible teaches that the Father elected a certain mass of people called the elect and Christ came to bear their sins on the cross.I Pet 2:24

Ron, welcome to the forum. Your observation is correct. Christ's cross work is fundamental to the Gospel and the nature of that work is the certain redemption and justification of His people that was accomplished through that work. This is not a secondary issue but one of preeminent importance.

All who are the elect of the Father will be drawn by the Holy Spirit through the call of the gospel to Christ. This to me cannot be true for those who are non believers, especially atheists and millions of others who are Muslims in the world. And most of these non believers live and die in this state.

Again you are correct.

What do you say? And why isn't this taught more in fundamental evangelical churches today? I attend a church where Christ is offered as a "provisional sacrifice for one's sins for the whole world, but only those who receive Christ are actually forgiven? In other words no one's sins are actually removed until they believe. This is now the norm in most churches today. What do you say about this?

This truth is not taught because it is rejected. I would suggest that if your church is teaching what you say it is that you should leave it and look else where.

~Anthony

[Brandan Kraft]

All who are the elect of the Father will be drawn by the Holy Spirit through the call of the gospel to Christ. This to me cannot be true for those who are non believers, especially atheists and millions of others who are Muslims in the world. And most of these non believers live and die in this state.

Well I agree with your statements, but I must add a clarification to this paragraph. God does indeed draw those who do not believe. Yes, even muslim men and atheist women, IF THEY ARE ELECT, will be drawn by the Holy Spirit at the given time.

[Ron151]

Why would God draw those who he never had any intention of saving? And what of the millions who have lived who were never even exposed to the gospel? Did God intend to save them as well?

[wildboar]

"Fundamental" churches do not teach that the particular atonement is one of the fundamentals. Most fundamentalist churches are anti-theological and just pick the doctrines they like best. "Oh yes, we like eternal security, but we don't like irresistable grace...." Despite the fact that their system is logically contradictory, it is popular. My advice is to flee fundamentalism. Yes, the virgin birth and other such things are important and should be affirmed by every Christian, but their is no Biblical grounds for a list of fundamentals. All of Scripture is God-breathed.

I'm guessing that you hold to baptistic beliefs. For me the acceptance of household baptism went hand in hand with belief in God's Sovereignty in salvation when I fled the Semi-Pelagian baptist church I was going to. I know that this is not the case for everyone. I would suggest that you put a higher priority on the doctrine of salvation as taught by a church than who that church admits to baptism. It boggles my mind that baptist denominations exist where the subjects of baptism and mode are viewed as being something worth dividing over but not the doctrine of salvation. Piper's church and the small CERC seem to have realized the folly in this but not many others have. You might want to check out some of the churches on this list: http://mountainretreatorg.net/churchit/churchit.cgi?oh

I would probably start looking at some of the OPC or RPCNA churches if there are any nearby you.

[Brandan Kraft]

Why would God draw those who he never had any intention of saving? And what of the millions who have lived who were never even exposed to the gospel? Did God intend to save them as well?

God does not draw anyone He does not have any intention of saving. He only draws those whom He saved in Christ.

[Mickey]

Why would God draw those who he never had any intention of saving? And what of the millions who have lived who were never even exposed to the gospel? Did God intend to save them as well?

I don't know if this question is in response to what Brandon wrote, but I can assure you that he doesn't believe that God draws people He did not predestine to be saved.

God predestined there to be vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath. Christ SAVED His sheep (the vessels of mercy) on the cross and condemned the vessels of wrath. When we are at enmity with God and dead in our trespasses, He through the work of regeneration raises His elect to life and draws us to Christ (This is the 'drawing' spoken of in John 6).

Brandon's point is that when God regenerates His children, He does so while we are in unbelief. It takes Him and Him alone to raise us from our dead state and give us faith. WE HAVE NO PART IN OUR SALVATION. He does this to Muslims, Mormons, Arminians, JW's, Native Americans, etc...But He ONLY draws His elect from these cults. The rest He hates and His wrath abides on them.

While God's elect were SAVED on the cross, we in our experience and in our minds are God haters. However God's favor and love still abide with us and guide our steps all the way, even in our unregenerate state. This is shown when in time, according to His predetermined plan, He breaths life into us and gives us the gift of faith.

Through this gift of faith God reveals to His elect that they were Justified by the merits of Christ alone and that they had no part in their salvation.

Mike

[Rod]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 should explain to all who can be saved. I don't know where the rest of you are getting your doctrine, but I think there's to much explanation of a simple teaching. Stick to God's Word and save the theoligical explanations.

[Tobias Crisp]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 should explain to all who can be saved. I don't know where the rest of you are getting your doctrine, but I think there's to much explanation of a simple teaching. Stick to God's Word and save the theoligical explanations.

Rod, in your profile you describe your soteriological position as "Calvinism" and yet you seem to distain the truth that Christ's cross work was an effectual atonement for His church and that that work is co-extensive with His intercession. You need to read John's gospel for carefully and in context. Did not Christ say that he did not pray for the world and that the Pharisee's were not His sheep and that He only gave His life for His sheep? All these are also in John's gospel.

~Anthony

[Rod]

You got all that from me simply quoting scripture? "For God so loved...." what more of an answer do you need?

Rod, in your profile you describe your soteriological position as "Calvinism" and yet you seem to distain the truth that Christ's cross work was an effectual atonement for His church and that that work is co-extensive with His intercession. You need to read John's gospel for carefully and in context. Did not Christ say that he did not pray for the world and that the Pharisee's were not His sheep and that He only gave His life for His sheep? All these are also in John's gospel.

~Anthony

[GraceAmbassador]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 should explain to all who can be saved. I don't know where the rest of you are getting your doctrine, but I think there's to much explanation of a simple teaching. Stick to God's Word and save the theological explanations.

Rod:

You should be able to read other references to the word "world" and notice that your exegesis of the verse above is totally incorrect. I hope you would follow Tobias Cirsp advice.

God loves the world is there; But also it is there that Jesus on John 17 says "he does not pray for the world". Would Jesus NOT pray for a group of people God loves? Also it says that "we are not of the world". Alas, if God loves the world and I am not of the world, then I am not loved by God... Can you see the folly of your assertion in deeming John 3:16 the parameter of God's love and your rendering of the word "world".

Want more? In the Epistles of John, since you claimed to be such an avid Bible reader in the other thread, John tells us that we should not love the world; If John is inspired by God, would God tell us NOT TO LOVE a group that He does love? What kind of confused and manic depressive little "god" you love Rod? Not the God that the Bible speaks about.

I was not going to engage you and let others do; However when I read your "divination" of what and who Doc Holiday, a moderator here, is and how you defined him without any knowledge of who he is I decided to be on the look out for your folly and warn you that the spirit of divination is against God's word and seers and diviners are not welcome in this Forum.

You may have misrepresented yourself as a "Calvinist" in your profile and that is also against the rules. Perhaps you don't know what a Calvinist is and that is fine. You don't have to be a Calvinist to partake of this Forum. So, please, revise your position and let us know who you really are and what you really believe since, contrary to you, we do not practice "divination".

Finally, you will find that assertions and statements here made as "the final word" based upon faulty biblical interpretation will be a fair game for anything, any answer that fits within the decorum of a Christian. We feel that to ridicule those purveyors of bad theology is perfectly fair and within the decorum of a Christian. So, please, reconsider your positions and the way you address the members of this Forum and check the way you present your biblical interpretations and you will be just fine as a participant here.

Thank you!

Milt

[Tobias Crisp]

You got all that from me simply quoting scripture? "For God so loved...." what more of an answer do you need?

Well, first of all you need to explain the purpose of quoting John 3:16 in light of the discussion. As it is those who oppose the fact that Christ established a righteousness through His work of Redemption, making an atonement for His elect's sin so that they are reconciled to the Father quote this verse. And as you have done they quote it as if it is totally self explanatory and completely refutes what we believe.

So, let's not be cryptic, what do you believe on this vital issue?

[Rod]

Rod:

You should be able to read other references to the word "world" and notice that your exegesis of the verse above is totally incorrect. I hope you would follow Tobias Cirsp advice.

God loves the world is there; But also it is there that Jesus on John 17 says "he does not pray for the world". Would Jesus NOT pray for a group of people God loves? Also it says that "we are not of the world". Alas, if God loves the world and I am not of the world, then I am not loved by God... Can you see the folly of your assertion in deeming John 3:16 the parameter of God's love and your rendering of the word "world".

Want more? In the Epistles of John, since you claimed to be such an avid Bible reader in the other thread, John tells us that we should not love the world; If John is inspired by God, would God tell us NOT TO LOVE a group that He does love? What kind of confused and manic depressive little "god" you love Rod? Not the God that the Bible speaks about.

I was not going to engage you and let others do; However when I read your "divination" of what and who Doc Holiday, a moderator here, is and how you defined him without any knowledge of who he is I decided to be on the look out for your folly and warn you that the spirit of divination is against God's word and seers and diviners are not welcome in this Forum.

You may have misrepresented yourself as a "Calvinist" in your profile and that is also against the rules. Perhaps you don't know what a Calvinist is and that is fine. You don't have to be a Calvinist to partake of this Forum. So, please, revise your position and let us know who you really are and what you really believe since, contrary to you, we do not practice "divination".

Finally, you will find that assertions and statements here made as "the final word" based upon faulty biblical interpretation will be a fair game for anything, any answer that fits within the decorum of a Christian. We feel that to ridicule those purveyors of bad theology is perfectly fair and within the decorum of a Christian. So, please, reconsider your positions and the way you address the members of this Forum and check the way you present your biblical interpretations and you will be just fine as a participant here.

Thank you!

Milt

Divination? What are you talkin about? Where do you get this? Can a response of simply quoting scripture bring this kind of judgment against me?

[Rod]

I believe Christ crucified. I believe when He said "It is finished" He bore our sins and paid the eternal price for our sins. As far as quoting John 3:16 I don't understand your response.

Well, first of all you need to explain the purpose of quoting John 3:16 in light of the discussion. As it is those who oppose the fact that Christ established a righteousness through His work of Redemption, making an atonement for His elect's sin so that they are reconciled to the Father quote this verse. And as you have done they quote it as if it is totally self explanatory and completely refutes what we believe.

So, let's not be cryptic, what do you believe on this vital issue?

[Rod]

I believe Christ crucified. I believe when He said "It is finished" He bore our sins and paid the eternal price for our sins. As far as quoting John 3:16 I don't understand your response.

Well, first of all you need to explain the purpose of quoting John 3:16 in light of the discussion. As it is those who oppose the fact that Christ established a righteousness through His work of Redemption, making an atonement for His elect's sin so that they are reconciled to the Father quote this verse. And as you have done they quote it as if it is totally self explanatory and completely refutes what we believe.

So, let's not be cryptic, what do you believe on this vital issue?

[InChristAlways]

You got all that from me simply quoting scripture? "For God so loved...." what more of an answer do you need?

Originally Posted by Tobias Crisp
Rod, in your profile you describe your soteriological position as "Calvinism" and yet you seem to distain the truth that Christ's cross work was an effectual atonement for His church and that that work is co-extensive with His intercession. You need to read John's gospel for carefully and in context. Did not Christ say that he did not pray for the world and that the Pharisee's were not His sheep and that He only gave His life for His sheep? All these are also in John's gospel.

~Anthony

Didn't He pray for them and not the World because they would be the ones proclaiming His message after the Cross and Pentecost? They were also the ones to sit on "12 thrones" judging their own people and they were eventually "taken out of the world" through death, just as we will be. This passage is pretty fascinating:

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, `Verily I say to you, that ye who did follow me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man may sit upon a throne of his glory, shall sit--ye also--upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel;

Jesus spoke a lot differently to His followers than He did the corrupt Priesthood in Jerusalem as they were in charge of the Firstborn Church of Israel, but of course they failed miserably and God "took them out" later.

Didn't Paul later state that we are to ourselves pray for all others along with our own brotherhood in the Body?.
We are the Lord's minsters and as such we have to look at the whole world as "the harvest", though many will forsake the message, but then again, it is up to God to open up the eyes of others after they have heard the message.


John 17:9 `I ask in regard to them; not in regard to the world do I ask, but in regard to those whom Thou hast given to me, because Thine they are,

1 tim 2:2:1 I urge you therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings, be made for all people; 2:2 for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 2:4 who wills that all people be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. 2:5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and humanity, himself human, Christ Jesus, 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, testimony at the appropriate time; 2:7 whereunto I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I speak the truth, I'm not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

1 Thessalonians 2:16 forbidding us to speak to the nations that they[Jewish rulers/Judeans] might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the wrath did come upon them--to the end!

[Tobias Crisp]

I believe Christ crucified. I believe when He said "It is finished" He bore our sins and paid the eternal price for our sins. As far as quoting John 3:16 I don't understand your response.

Rod, I'm not sure if you are confusing yourself or not. The discussion is whether Christ died for all men or only for the elect. Instead of engaging in the discussion you simply quoted John 3:16 and seemed to distain any theological explanation. My question is how are you using John 3:16? Are you using the verse to state that Christ in fact died for all mankind without exception and distinction? If the only point you were making is that we should just use simple biblical terminology to explain definite atonement then just say so.

[Rod]

I approach the Word of God in the simplist way possible. Yes I believe that Christ is the atonement for all. However, it is a gift of God that must be accepted in order to be saved. I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. I guess not. I speak to whoever the Lord puts in front of me to minister to and most of them have no idea they can be saved or how to be saved. So I am used to speaking in a simple to the point way. I cannot speak as intellectually as the rest of you and I'm sorry if I have come off as judgmental to any of you. I'm saved by grace and I don't pretend to really know who else can be saved according to God's eternal plan of redemption. As far as the elect of God, I"ve always thought this referred to the Jews. { So now I just opened up another discussion by saying all of this}

[Rod]

I approach the Word of God in the simplist way possible. Yes I believe that Christ is the atonement for all. However, it is a gift of God that must be accepted in order to be saved. I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. I guess not. I speak to whoever the Lord puts in front of me to minister to and most of them have no idea they can be saved or how to be saved. So I am used to speaking in a simple to the point way. I cannot speak as intellectually as the rest of you and I'm sorry if I have come off as judgmental to any of you. I'm saved by grace and I don't pretend to really know who else can be saved according to God's eternal plan of redemption. As far as the elect of God, I"ve always thought this referred to the Jews. { So now I just opened up another discussion by saying all of this}

[InChristAlways]

I approach the Word of God in the simplist way possible. Yes I believe that Christ is the atonement for all. However, it is a gift of God that must be accepted in order to be saved. I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. I guess not. I speak to whoever the Lord puts in front of me to minister to and most of them have no idea they can be saved or how to be saved. So I am used to speaking in a simple to the point way. I cannot speak as intellectually as the rest of you and I'm sorry if I have come off as judgmental to any of you. I'm saved by grace and I don't pretend to really know who else can be saved according to God's eternal plan of redemption. As far as the elect of God, I"ve always thought this referred to the Jews. { So now I just opened up another discussion by saying all of this}

LOL. Yes you did brother! They were up to the Cross. The jews practice Judaism, while the rest of their brethren, the Israelites, are into all other types of religions. [You and Harald need to get together on that subject]. [The Eschaton board is a great place to discuss this I think]
Other than this, I am enjoying your posts a lot brother and welcome aboard.