Anti-Scripture + Anti-Calvin...?

[katoikei]

Dear Solas,

I am participation on another forum; and read this. This doctrine seems really bad, I just don't know enough about the subject or Calvin, to tell if this person is bluffing or just spreading something bad. It seems to have a philosophical bent, strange. Please help me...?

'strictly speaking the bible teaches that man is neither naturally good not naturally evil, but rather naturally neutral. That is what Judaism teaches today and it was what Christianity taught for a long time until Calvin came along and decided every christian was as depraved as himself.....'

[Robert R. Higby]

If man is naturally neutral, then all of his thoughts and actions are neutral as well. As a man thinketh in his heart so is he! A tree produces fruit according to the nature of what kind of tree it is. Neutrality cannot be changed into sin or righteousness, evil or good. For any act or thought to be good--it must proceed from a righteous nature imparted by the Lord God to the spirit of the creature. For any act or thought to be evil--it must proceed from a wicked nature imparted by the Lord God to the spirit of the creature. Neither a righteous nor a wicked heart can be imparted by the devil, his angels, or another human being in biological generation.

[katoikei]

If man is naturally neutral, then all of his thoughts and actions are neutral as well.

Thanks, yeah I never thought of looking at the fruity tales....

[Mickey]

'strictly speaking the bible teaches that man is neither naturally good not naturally evil, but rather naturally neutral. That is what Judaism teaches today and it was what Christianity taught for a long time until Calvin came along and decided every christian was as depraved as himself.....'

This person just admited that Calvin was depraved...I am confused...if man is neutral then wouldn't Calvin be neutral?

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

This is going to seem a little obvious...

But what does the bible say?

[Mickey]

This is also going to seem a little obvious...

The person who said that quote, doesn't know.

[katoikei]

Is this the best Solas? You could help me a bit more here, hey? Get out the dusty Bibles and Calvin notes etc....and give this one a fair rattle and hum, before it melts.....lollypop

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

OH! Thems fight'n words!

Let's forget about Calvin right now and examine some measurable facts about mankind in general.

- We reject God.

- We take His name in vain.

- We worship false gods.

- We dishonor our parents.

- We close our hands from the poor and needy.

- We lust after "stuff".

- We use filthy communication.

- We are prideful about being human.

- We exercise vain imagination.

- We pollute and destroy our habitat.

- We're lazy.

- We kill each other.

- We lie to each other.

- We steal from one another.

- We lust after members of the opposite sex/same sex/animals etc.

These are just some of the sins we are guilty of in one way or another. The fact of the matter is Christ died to propitiate for these sins. If we were simply morally neutral, then none of these points would be predominate factors in our lives.

These innate 'traits' are just the tip of the iceberg. The list cold probably go on forever to hog up most of the bandwidth on this server.

[katoikei]

Thanks UGC,

(extract from your previous comment)

'If we were simply morally neutral, then none of these points (mentioned in your thread above) would be predominate factors in our lives ?'

The point is...

(from the opening post)

'strictly speaking the bible teaches that man is neither naturally good not naturally evil, but rather naturally neutral. That is what Judaism teaches today and it was what Christianity taught for a long time until Calvin came along and decided every christian was as depraved as himself.....'

It seems to have a philosophical bent, strange. Please help me...?

Do the Scriptures, Judaism and Christianity teach : (?)

1. Man is niether naturally good,
2. nor naturally evil,
3. but rather naturally neutral

Did John Calvin

Decide every Christians was depraved as himself ?

Carry on, please.

[samohtwerdna]

Why is this a mystery?

It's hard to find a passage in the scripture that does not testify to the total depravity of man!

Bob gave you a few examples of how the scripture treats our nature (either good or bad no neutral!) When we look at Eze 36 - we see that God has to take out our heart of stone and put in a heart of flesh - this passage assumes only two conditions and neutral is not one of them! If we keep reading to the next chapter (the famous dry bones chapter) we see that the army of Israel can only live by God's breathing life into them. The image is clear to all that until God regenerates man is dead - not neutral!

Skip over to the New Testament and we see Christ admonition that no man can serve to masters... no man can serve both God and mammon! Again Christ assumes only two possible conditions - serving God or serving mammon - no neutrality. Paul writes so clearly in Romans that we are all dead in our trespasses and sins - that it is almost a joke pretending even for a moment that one could support a neutral position from Paul's writings. John says - if we say we are without sin, then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us!! The more I think about it - the more convinced I am that this fellow is laughable, and the burden of proof should be on his shoulders!

Now concerning Calvin and Christianity. His statement about Calvin inventing the doctrine of total depravity is way off. The 5 points of Calvin where not made up by Calvin - but by the church in response to heresy. Never-the-less, Calvin surely believed in the doctrine. Many see Calvin as merely expanding or commenting upon what was taught and received by Augustine centuries before. Augustine is said to have been the greatest proponent for the depravity of man - although I would argue that Paul and the Holy Spirit have him beat by a mile! Any serious student of Calvin would know better than to attribute the doctrines of Calvinism to Calvin as there origin. And any moderate student of the Bible would know better than to make such a statement that the bible teaches neutrality of man. The only truth to his statement is that modern Jews teach such absurdities. But what does that matter?

The person who made the statement is obviously a fool, and his thinking great folly! - and the bible tells us not to answer a fool according to his folly! - In that vein I would say the best response would be to treat him like a fool for such a preposterous assertion - and demand of him text supporting his deranged thinking. This person however, is probably not interested in truth and will not take the time to develop a case for his argument. So tell him nice try... but try reading something more than the enquirer for your info!!

Andrew T. Adcock

[Mickey]

Rom 3:9-18

9What then? Are we Jews[a] any better off?[b] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
14"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

[katoikei]

Hi Solas,
I am following, thanks. This is very useful. Please don't stop.

[katoikei]

Happy New Year, to ye all.

When I meant, don't stop posting, I did not mean stop posting. I have to really scratch hard to come up with a new post.....well hopefully I will think of something fabulous!

[katoikei]

Well it is that birthday madness again.... I am fourty eight and loving every minute of it....smiles all around......thanks for the earlier contributions, now it is so silent, what does one talk about on this forum that is interesting..... ?

[GraceAmbassador]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY 48 TIMES!

Milt

[katoikei]

Thanks Milt,

'I'm not fool no Siree,
I'll live to be a hundered and three.'

Peace,