Is the final resurrection "bodily" or "spiritual"?

[Kings Kid]

There are a couple of verses that convince me that the "final resurrection" will be BODILY and not SPIRITUAL(unseen).

In 1 Corinthians 15:20-26, Paul relates the resurrection of our bodies with the resurrection of Christ's body. Paul teaches that our resurrection will be patterned after the resurrection of Christ.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul says that the Lord will descend from heaven with a "SHOUT" and with a "TRUMPET". Paul is obviously saying that when Christ comes back it's not going to be secret. Everybody is going to know!

Also in this passage, Paul says that the "dead in Christ" and those "still alive and remain" will meet the Lord in the clouds (in the air). This is a physical rapture, taking place in a physical realm.

Surely this is not some secret spiritual (unseen) event. If it had already happened, we would have known about it. No doubt!

Therefore I am a firm believer in the "bodily" resurrection of the Saints!

[Brandan Kraft]

Amen

[Odyssey]

Kings Kid,

Before we can look at the nature of this event, we must look at when it was/is to take place. There are those who look at the rapture and those who look at the 'Final coming' of Christ. That is, while looking at the 'rapture,' some view this as a 'coming' of Christ, therefore they hold to a third of final coming. First, there is nothing in the bible that teaches a third coming. Second, the 'resurrection' of the saints is always related to the coming of Christ (as in the passages you mentioned). With this stated, again, the Bible clearly teaches a first century coming of Jesus. In fact, if we look at some of those verses in the Greek, we will see that their expectation was that Jesus was 'about to' return. For example:

Matthew 16.27-28. 'For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work. Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.' Here Jesus was talking to the twelve disciples.


Luke 21.36. ' "But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." ' Again, Jesus was talking to the twelve. If we look at the context, we will see that this is a parallel of Matthew 24. Jesus stated that it was 'about to take place' within the lifetime of his disciples.

Acts 17.31. 'because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.' Paul was preaching to the men of Athens. His message was that god was about to judge the world.

Acts 24.24-25. 'And after certain days, Felix having come with Drusilla his wife, being a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith toward Christ, and he reasoning concerning righteousness, and temperance, and the judgment that is about to be, Felix, having become afraid, answered, ‘For the present be going, and having got time, I will call for thee.' Here we see that Paul taught that the 'judgment' was 'about to be.' It made Felix 'afraid.' Now why would Felix be afraid of the judgment if it was coming thousands of years later?

Romans 8.18. 'For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us.' Paul wrote that the glory of the people of god was about to be revealed.

2Timothy 4.1 'I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign—.' Here Paul wrote to Timothy that Jesus was 'about to judge the living and the dead at his manifistation and his reign.' This is exactly what Jesus told the disciples in Matthew 16.27-28. Notice that this would include resurrection (i.e., the dead).

The are others I could give, but I think these are more than enough to show that the NT apostles taught, through the infallability of the Holy Spirit I might add, that Jesus was about to come and bring judgment. This would include the resurrection. To further prove that, look at Acts 24:

Acts 24.14-15. ‘And I confess this to thee, that, according to the way that they call a sect, so serve I the God of the fathers, believing all things that in the law and the prophets have been written, having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous.'

Paul emphaticly taught that the 'resurrection' was about to take place. Make no doubt about it. This was the teaching of the first century apostles and church. They all taught and believed that Jesus was about to come, That he was about to raise the dead. That he was about to judge the world. That he was about to give rewards to people. Therefore, if we are true Bible believing Christians, and we believe the Bible to be the infallable, god-breathed word of the one true and holy god, then we must face the fact that this must have taken place. If not, 'we are of all people most to be pitied.' Our whole lives have been based on a lie. We might as well throw out the Bible. It's that simple.

Only after we deal with the issue of when this was to take place, and we submit to the authority of the word of god, can we honestly look at the dillemas it brings to understanding the nature of those things.

Grace to you,

jak

[Kings Kid]

Odyssey,

You said, "Before we can look at the nature of this event (the resurrection), we must look at WHEN it was/is to take place...Only after we deal with the issue of WHEN this was to take place...can we honestly look at the dillemas it brings to understanding the nature of those things."

I respectfully disagree with you on the starting point when studying whether the final resurrection is to be "bodily" or "spiritual". I am not saying that the "when" question is not important, but I think we need to understand what the "resurrection" means Biblically before we address the "when" question. So I will be trying to prove, through a variety of Bible verses, that the resurrection is in fact a "bodily" one.

In Job 19:25-27, Job says, "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on earth; and after my skin is destroyed, this I shall know, that in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another."

An obvious reference to a "bodily" resurrection!

In Psalm 17:15, it says, "As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness."

When the Psalmnist is resurrected, he will be in the presence of God (I will see your face) and will be in a glorified body (I awake in Your likeness)!

In Daniel 12:1,2 it says, "At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Here we see a time of trouble like never before, followed by deliverance that includes the "bodily" resurrection of some to "everlasting life" and some to "everlasting contempt"!

In John 5:28,29 it says, "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Here we see the "dead bodies" coming forth in the resurrection. Some "bodies" resurrected to life, and other "bodies" resurrected to condemnation.

In John 6:39,40,44,54 it says:
...but should raise it up at the last day (vs39)
...I will raise him up at the last day (40)
...I will raise him up at the last day (44)
...I will raise him up at the last day (54)

The previous verses have shown that there will be a "bodily" resurrection, but these verses show that the resurrection of the "body" will happen at the last day!

In Philipians 3:21 it says, "...who will transform our lowly body that it may conform to His glorious body..."

Our "bodies" will be transformed to conform with His glorified body. You can't get much clearer than that!!

The doctrine of the "bodily" resurrection is very important because salvation is not complete without redemption of the body also.

In Romans 8:11 it says, "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

Resurrecting life will be given to our "mortal bodies"!

In Romans 8:22,23 it says, "For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. And not only they, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body."

We see there is a groaning. Groaning for what? A groaning for the redemption our our body but also a groaning for the redemption of the whole creation. Our "bodies" groan for salvation, and until the body is resurrected, the groaning will continue. If the body is not resurrected, the work of salvation is unfinished!

In 2 Corinthians 5:2-4 it says, "For we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life."

Again we see that there is a groaning for a redeemed body (or glorified body). The "body" will never be redeemed (glorified) until the body is resurrected. That's why the doctrine of the "bodily" resurrection is absolutely crucial!!!

In 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 it says, "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed. For this corruptable has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality."

When the trumpet sounds, the "bodies" of the saints will be resurrected into an incorruptable and immortal state.

Before salvation can be completed, it must include the body also. If there is not a "bodily" resurrection, there will "NOT" be salvation.

Odessey, I could never accept that the final resurrection has already happened. Because if the final resurrection has already happened, then there is no hope for any of us. Our salvation would never be complete and our groaning would continue forever!

But PTL!!! We can stand on the Word of God that says that He will raise us up at the last day in resurrection power, fully redeemed and completely glorified, to glorify God and enjoy Him forever!!!

[Andrew]

KK,

Amen! It is def a physical resurrection! Not spiritual, becos our dead spirit was already resurrected when we were recreated/born again.

However, the rapture wld be a quiet event in the sense that it happens in the twinkling of an eye. In the Greek it means "atomic second". So yes the world will come to realised that millions are gone instantly, but it is not an event where Jesus makes a big show of it so that all the world can see Him taking us up slowly.

The "big show" only happens at the second coming, when we the church come down with him in great power and glory after our marriage to him at the marriage supper of the Lamb. Then the world world will see and know.

God bless

[Odyssey]

Kings Kid,

So then, there was a physical resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous in AD 70?

Grace to you,

jak

[Kings Kid]

There will be a "bodily" resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

When? I have no idea!

Could it have been AD 70! NO!

Why not? Because if the final resurrection has already happened, then we are left with an incomplete salvation. Our hope is directed to that "last day" when our "bodies" will be conformed to His glorious body, incorruptable and immortal. It is only at the final resurrrection (bodily), that we will finally be fully redeemed and fully gloridied.

Could there have been a "bodily" resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous in AD 70?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

[Odyssey]

Kings Kid,

First let me state that I do not believe we are in a disagreement concerning the resurrection of the 'body.' What I think we are in a disagreement over is the nature of the 'body.' In most of the passages you quoted the term 'body' or 'bodies' is not even present, it has to be read into the passage for your position to stand. In other words, you only base the idea of resurrection on the physical. Therefore, if a passage states that there is a resurrection, you automatically see it as physical. However, if that is true, then Jesus was not the Messiah because the Jews read and understood those passages of a conquering king to be one of national and political in nature. Therefore, they were right in believing that Jesus was not whom he claimed to be.

You see, we have to look at the whole context of Scripture to understand something. For example, we can not understand the idea of type and shadow unless we read the NT. That is, when we read about the sacrifices made by OT Israel we understand that they were a picture or poetic image of Jesus and his death. We would nevercome to this conclusion based on the OT alone. We have to look at things from the NT to rightfully interpret the OT. Am I making sense?

Most of the Bible is written in poetic imagery. That is, things are explained in a type of parable to help us understand the spiritual reality. For example, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he had to be 'born again' Nic was looking at the physical and he was wrong. Jesus point was that someone being physically born was a picture of the reality of spiritual birth. With that stated, let's look at Hebrew 11. The writer, when comparing the 'heros of faith' to the NT saints, made a startling statement: 'Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, in order that they might obtain a better resurrection' (v.35). Here the writer stated that there is a 'better resurrection' other than physical. Why? What is the purpose of those physical resurrections? They showed, in physical form, the true resurrection, i.e., a spiritual one. But also notice the rest of the passage: 'And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect' (vv.39-40). This shows us that the OT saints are not to receive their 'complete salvation' until the NT saints do. If that is true, or better still, if we are still waiting, then no one has made it to heaven! Those of the faith who have died are still underneath the altar waiting for Revelation to be fulfilled. We can not get into Heaven until then:

Revelation 6.9-11. 'And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also.'

Now, concerning the passages that speak of a 'bodily' resurrection: If you will notice in every one of the passages you quoted, the writer was addressing the recipients of that letter, i.e., the 'you' or 'we.' These passages can only apply to us if we were there when it was written. For example, in 1 Corinthians, Paul wrote, 'Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed' (15.51-52). Paul was not addressing us. He was addressing the Corinthian church. He plainly expected to be around when the resurrection occured because he wrote, 'we shall all be changed.' He was not even thinking about us. Like I stated earlier, the apostles clearly taught that Jesus was coming to them 'very soon.' So soon, in fact, that they believed some of them would still be alive to witness the event (see Matt. 16.27-28).

Furthermore, if we look at the rest of the verse we find the following: 'For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ' (vv. 53-57). Paul wrote that the 'perishable will have put on the imperishable' when the passage he quoted would be fulfilled. When would that be? When the law was fulfilled. If we have not been resurrected yet, then we are still under the law. Paul wrote that the product of sin was death. If we contend that 'death' is physical, then no one has yet been forgiven of sin. Why? '{F}or the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation...or until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law' (Rom. 4.15, 5.13).

Lastly, are we to understand 'body' as being only physical? I hope not for we are all 'the body of Christ.' How can this be if the term 'body' is only to be understood as physical?

Conerning the passage of Job, the passage can also be translated to say, 'without my flesh I will see God.' Therefore it depends on the translation.

The passage of Daniel is a very curcial passage indeed. For the angel told Daniel that he was talking about 'his people,' i.e., the nation of Israel. He also told him, 'But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase...And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end' (v. 4, 9). Notice that this states the 'time of the end' and not the end of time. No where does the Bible teach an end of time (compare this with Revelation 22.10).

And, 'When I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished' (v. 7). Notice that 'when the power of the holy people has been completley shattered, all these things shall be finished.' Everything about the physcial nation of Israel has been completely shattered. Even rabbis' today believe that 'biblical Judaism' ended in AD 70. And according to the angel, 'all these things shall be finished.' This is exactly what Jesus said in Luke when referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, 'because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled' (21.22). Since Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70, then 'all things written' must be fulfilled. That would include resurrection.

Grace to you,

jak

[Odyssey]

Kings Kid,

There are some preterists who believe that we receive our 'glorified bodies' when we die. FYI

Grace to you,

jak

[Kings Kid]

Odyssey,

The resurrection happens at the last trumpet and at the last day. There is a specific time when "all" the dead will be resurrected. Therefore, there is a specific time when "all" will receive glorified bodies.

[Odyssey]

Kings Kid,

John wrote that it was the 'last hour' (1 John 2.18).

Jesus stated that the 'last day' would be at the end of the OC age (Matt. 13.39-40).

There were two 'ages' mentioned in Scripute--the OC age (refered to as 'this age') and the NC age (refered to as 'that age'). The OC age was 'becoming obsolete' and 'growing old.' It would end. This is the 'last days' 'last hour' etc. to which the NT writers were referring. There will be no end to the NC age (Eph. 3.21).

Grace to you,

jak

[Kings Kid]

Odyssey,

One of the rules of Biblical interpretation is to interpret the unclear passages in light of the clearer passages.

I believe the Bible is clear that there is going to be a "bodily" resurrection in the "FUTURE", so I have to interpret the less clear verses in light of this truth.

I agree with Gentry (who is a partial preterist), that there is still a future parousia, a future judgement, and a future resurrection.

[Odyssey]

Kings Kid,

I agree with your interpretation rules (hermeneutics). One of the chief reasons I cannot agree with Gentry is this: He does a fantastic job of showing the inconsistencies of Dispensationalism based on their poor exegetics, especially when dealing with the timing of events. He holds to the belief that most of the Bible has already been fulfilled. However, when we look at the passages he uses for his view of the future (i.e., the 'final coming,' the resurrection, etc.) every one of them has a time statement! His hermeneutic goes right out the window. Do you know why he can't change? Because of the creeds. Because of tradition. There is no reason to interpret 'soon' in one passage to mean just that (he even uses the 'about to' passages against dispies), but turn right around and interpret it to mean something else in a different passage. Scripture must interpret scripture. The 'futurism' of the Bible was future to its' writers--not us.

I have written an article showing the problems of Partial Preterism and it can be found here at the Preterist Archive. It shows how the partial preterist is inconsistant in their views.

Grace to you,

jak

PS: In fact, I e-mailed Mr. Gentry for permission to quote him for my article.

[Odyssey]

Kings Kid,

Concerning clarity of Scripture: nothing could be more clear than the passages I showed that taught the 'final' coming of Christ was to be in the first century. Why aren't we supposed to interpret them clearly? What could be more clear than 'there is about to be a raising again of both the righteous and the unrighteous'?

Grace to you,

jak

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by Odyssey
Do you know why he [Gentry] can't change? Because of the creeds. Because of tradition.

Are you sure this is why he's not a complete preterist?

[Kings Kid]

Odyssey,

RC Sproul, when commenting on full preterism, says, "This schema indicates a single resurrection that takes place in three distinct stages during one eschatological period. For this schema to work, the traditional idea of resurrection must be replaced with a metaphorical idea of resurrection, dying to an old redemptive age or eon and "rising" to a new eon. This end of the age is the only "end" with which biblical eschatology is concerned."

Would you agree with this definition? In your understanding, is the resurrection strictly "metaphorical"? Is the resurrection a metaphorical dying to the OC age and a metaphorical rising to a NC age?

RC Sproul says, "The great weakness of full preterism - and what I regard to be its fatal flaw - is its treatment of the final resurrection."

PS

I haven't read your article yet, but thanks for giving it to me. I will read through it and hopefully get a better understanding of what full preterism believes!

[Odyssey]

Well, pretty sure. He has stated so over and over. Also, his first defense against preterism is the creeds. Second, he uses scriptures. Check out the article.

Grace to you,

jak

[Odyssey]

Originally posted by Kings Kid
There will be a "bodily" resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

When? I have no idea!

Could it have been AD 70! NO!

Why not? Because if the final resurrection has already happened, then we are left with an incomplete salvation. Our hope is directed to that "last day" when our "bodies" will be conformed to His glorious body, incorruptable and immortal. It is only at the final resurrrection (bodily), that we will finally be fully redeemed and fully gloridied.

Could there have been a "bodily" resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous in AD 70?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

So then, the Bible is wrong when it states that there was 'about to be a rising of both the righteous and the unrighteous?'

Grace to you,

jak

[Kings Kid]

Odtssey,

You said:

"So then, the Bible is wrong when it states that there was 'about to be a rising of both the righteous and the unrighteous?"

If you are referring to 2 Timothy 4:1, I don't understand where you get the 'about to be' phrase from.

The NKJ says "I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His Kingdom..."

The NAS says "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom..."

The NIV says "And so I solemnly urge you before God and before Christ Jesus - who will some day judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom..."

The Amplified Bible says "I charge [you] in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus Who is to judge the living and the dead, and by (in the light of) His coming and His kingdom..."

The ESV says "I charge you in the presence of God and of Jesus Christ who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom..."

None of these translations say 'about to' when referring to Christ judging the living and the dead. Where do you get the 'about to' from?

[Odyssey]

The passages I quoted earlier are from the Young's Literal Translation. If you will look up the term in the Greek you will see that the term is 'mello' and it means 'about to.' The passage I was referring to was Acts 24.14-15:

'And I confess this to thee, that, according to the way that they call a sect, so serve I the God of the fathers, believing all things that in the law and the prophets have been written, having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous.'

In the passage you referred to, Paul wrote, 'I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign—'

That is the way it is in the original Greek. Look it up in a Strong's Concordance. It is there.

Grace to you,

jak

PS: Did you not read my first post in this series?