I have a question.
Does anyone here (in this forum) believe that the Book of James is NOT supposed to be a part of Holy Scripture? What about other books?
This is just to "test the waters here".
Bill
I have a question.
Does anyone here (in this forum) believe that the Book of James is NOT supposed to be a part of Holy Scripture? What about other books?
This is just to "test the waters here".
Bill
Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
Bill, we've had multiple threads on this subject. There are a few of them in the Noteworthy Archives.
I do not think James should be in the canon because it opposes the Gospel of Christ. (justification by works - whether before men or God) Some here think James should be included in the canon, but that maybe sections of it were added by works mongerers later.
I'd ask that you read those threads on the canon (multi-level canon & determination of the canon / sola scriptura, and the Sean Gerety / Trinity Foundation / Luba BLOWUP thread), and then if you have any questions, feel free to ask away.
Brandan
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Brandan if you belive that james should not be part of the cannon because the supposed teaching of faith by works then you would have to throw out the Gospel of John as well and take issue with Jesus himself.
John 6:29- "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
In Christ,
Gordon
Cheap polemics are not welcome here Gordon. Besides, John 6:29 is not talking about justification. It's simply stating it's GOD'S work in an individual when that person comes to a knowledge of the truth. If you believe this is teaching justification by man's works, then I have to assume that you are confused.Originally Posted by Ekere
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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What I am confused about brandan, is why you won't just answer my question instead of telling me of 374 post threads!
I asked a simple question. All I want is an answer. Is James inspired by the Holy Spirit of God or NOT? Which OTHER BOOKS are NOT either?
That is it.
I don't have time to read 374 posts to get an answer!
Bill
Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
Bill, read above. I already said that I do not think James should be in the Bible. James probably didn't write the book, and it was a plant by works mongerers. It was promoted by the Roman Catholics, and has been the basis for every single so-called christian religion that has opposed Justification by Grace from the moment it has been accepted as truth.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Brandan first of all I am not confused and secondly if you were to truly read AND understand what James is saying then you would not come to the conclusion of Justification by works. No cheap polemics here.
Gordon
O.K.. Brandan. Thank you, but for the second half of my question:
What of the other 65 books of the "Canon"?
Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
We have given ample, logical, and biblical reasons for our position if one wishes to read our threads on this subject. Please do not ask for us to present the same evidence all over again; that is not proper stewardship of our time or yours.
Bill: I don't have time to read 374 posts to get an answer!
Then I will pray for you that the Lord will give you time!
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Ekere, we've discussed the issue of James to the point of exhaustion. I'm not going to have this conversation again. Read these threads if you're interested in my position. I am more aware of your argument than you give me credit for being!
These threads have dealt with this topic far more in depth than you realize. Go read them before you try to argue with me about the book of James.
http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=2673
http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=2590
http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=1355
http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=2925
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Gordon and Bill, please don't be disappointed if we do not feel like rehashing and repeating everything we discussed for the month of December. You don't have time to read a bunch of posts and we do not have time to repeat everything. Many attempted rebuttals have been given and so far they have all been weak. Gordon, this includes your last post.
I accept the rest of the bible as God-breathed. I still am investigating the canonicity of some other books such as Esther.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Thank YOU BRANDAN!
I will not continue to ask. That was ALL I asked for! I promise.
Thanks again.
Bill
Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
To give a brief response, our position on the infallibility of scripture is not different from other Reformed expositors. The canon issue is a discussion of exactly WHAT constitutes scripture, not an open door to skepticism of the Bible itself. We condemn skeptical arguments every bit as much as any other Protestant teacher.
I have presented evidence for the low (rather than high/innerrant) canonicity of a few OT/NT books in the canon studies, including Esther, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Solomon, and James.
I do not believe that James the brother of Jesus was an enemy of the gospel (in his earthly life)--but certainly believe that he severely compromised the gospel in his misguided zeal for the Jewish law and promotion of the need for a true "Christianized" Judaism. Many of his followers (the 'party of James' mentioned by Paul in Gal. 2) used his erroneous law-devotion to form a 'James cult' (which I believe James opposed) against Paul's gospel.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
I have to say: that this has caused me to re-examine James 2. I have to admit...my position on this chapter is pretty weak after re-reading it.
This is interesting.
b
Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
Remember, all things must be judged by the Gospel. That is all we are advocating.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Who said I wanted to rehash anything? I just made a smiple comment. You guys do not need to be sooooo defensive.
Gordon
Please, even if you make any comment, for the sake of intellectual fairness give the issue the same scholarly attention we have given. It is really unfair when someone comes in thinking that we just took what we defend from a novelty box and have no argument to support what we think.
We don't mind people disagreeing with us and in fact encourage disagreement; but disagreement based upon scholarly done research. You mentioned a text that has nothing to do with salvation by works thereby demonstrating a little bit of confusion as to the meaning of the text you presented.
*************
Bill said:
I rejected the book of James even when I was an "arminian" not only because of chapter 2 but also because of chapter 5 wherein James teaches that we can change God's will by praying and we can forgive sins by praying for the sick (the favorite argument in the Roman Catholic Church). We don't believe James wrote these things.I have to say: that this has caused me to re-examine James 2. I have to admit...my position on this chapter is pretty weak after re-reading it.
This is interesting.
Many people attempted to explain away the meaning of James 2:24 as not being "jusrification by works" but, "justification before man"; no one, however was able to establish that above and beyond argument. It is justification by works before God according to the context and that contradicts Paul's teachings and the core of the Gospel.
The more you attempt to gather information about James 2 the more you will find interpolations, possibly by Erasmus, and a few other texts that appear for certain not to have been written by James...
I wish you well as you study James!
Milt
Grace Ambassador
A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace
My pledge to other members:
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11
Thanks to all!
I am soon going to extract my canon studies from the 25 pages into a separate closed thread, since they are almost 'lost' in all the dialog. Ditto the "Luke vs. James" dialog which I intend to continue!
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
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