The Timing of Justification and Imputation

[jmgipson]

I think one of our biggest mistakes even as reformed men is to constantly think of words as meaning the same thing wherever they are used in scripture. Examples: world, all, circumcision, etc. Should we not consider this same thing when it comes to the word faith. Sometimes it means the obedience of christ, sometimes it is believing, etc. I put this forward to you: Could we not also think of faith as a synonym for Christ? For instance:

Gal 3:23-24
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. KJV

Now does it make sense to say that before believing came, we were kept under the law.... we might be justified by believing....

It is more accurate I think to say "before Christ" came, ..... justified by Christ.....

Context is always the master and I know I continually have to remind myself of that. That is my 2 cents worth. Faith does not always mean believing just like world does not mean every person in the world.

John

[harald]

Could we not also think of faith as a synonym for Christ? For instance:

Gal 3:23-24
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. KJV

Now does it make sense to say that before believing came, we were kept under the law.... we might be justified by believing....

It is more accurate I think to say "before Christ" came, ..... justified by Christ..... (John Gipson)

Verse 23 in the Greek has all along stated that "the faith" (Gr. teen pistin) is Christ. I pointed this out to someone here last year. KJV and other versions obscure the verse and Paul's sense by omitting a determiner and not rendering TOU literally. In fact most versions neglect to translate TOU at all. Moreover the majority of versions do wrong by adding an article "the" to "law" in v. 23. The Greek has an anarthrous nomos. Furthermore most versions mistranslate the participle present mellousan. KJV mistranslated as "should afterwards", while in fact it is "being about .. to be directly revealed".

As for v. 24 "faith" does not mean "Christ (crucified)". Then, the preposition "by" of KJV is a mistranslation of EK. EK here has its primary sense, "from within". Thus lit. "to the end that from within faith we would be justified". Go and learn what sense dikaioô has in this verse.
Moreover "schoolmaster" is a mistranslation of paidagôgos. It does not denote "school-master", but it denoted someone whose task it was to escort or lead children to and from school. "the law" of v. 24 cannot mean the Mosaic law, because Paul was writing to Galatian members of the Body of the Christ with "heathen" background. Thus the article "the" (with nomos) of v. 24 is the article of previous reference. And the previous instance where nomos occurred was the anarthrous nomos of v. 23. The Galatians, when they were "heathen" still, had absolutely not been under the Mosaic law. If so then they would have had some knowledge of Elohim. But now Paul says in chapter 4, v. 8, that they had had absolutely no propositional or perceptive or cognitive knowledge (eidoo) of Elohim. Had they been under the Mosaic law they would have had some cognitive knowledge of Elohim.

Harald

[ray kikkert]

Could we not also think of faith as a synonym for Christ? For instance:

Gal 3:23-24
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. KJV

Now does it make sense to say that before believing came, we were kept under the law.... we might be justified by believing....

It is more accurate I think to say "before Christ" came, ..... justified by Christ..... (John Gipson)

Verse 23 in the Greek has all along stated that "the faith" (Gr. teen pistin) is Christ. I pointed this out to someone here last year.

Yeah, so what?

KJV and other versions obscure the verse and Paul's sense by omitting a determiner and not rendering TOU literally. In fact most versions neglect to translate TOU at all.

God forbid, you d'ont say Harold. We have been blinded all this time. Thank you Harold for your "blinder theology".

Moreover the majority of versions do wrong by adding an article "the" to "law" in v. 23. The Greek has an anarthrous nomos. Furthermore most versions mistranslate the participle present mellousan. KJV mistranslated as "should afterwards", while in fact it is "being about .. to be directly revealed".

Well then all ploughboys and pewsitters repent of the KJV and look to the gospel according to Harold.

As for v. 24 "faith" does not mean "Christ (crucified)". Then, the preposition "by" of KJV is a mistranslation of EK. EK here has its primary sense, "from within". Thus lit. "to the end that from within faith we would be justified". Go and learn what sense dikaioô has in this verse.

Yes Johnor Ray you idiotic ploughboys, smarten up, you ought to know better.

Moreover "schoolmaster" is a mistranslation of paidagôgos. It does not denote "school-master", but it denoted someone whose task it was to escort or lead children to and from school. "the law" of v. 24 cannot mean the Mosaic law, because Paul was writing to Galatian members of the Body of the Christ with "heathen" background. Thus the article "the" (with nomos) of v. 24 is the article of previous reference. And the previous instance where nomos occurred was the anarthrous nomos of v. 23. The Galatians, when they were "heathen" still, had absolutely not been under the Mosaic law. If so then they would have had some knowledge of Elohim. But now Paul says in chapter 4, v. 8, that they had had absolutely no propositional or perceptive or cognitive knowledge (eidoo) of Elohim. Had they been under the Mosaic law they would have had some cognitive knowledge of Elohim.

Harald

I think the sky is going to fall. My interpretation of "schoolmaster" has made my faith void. If only I had the right lexicon in the first place, I would not be in the mess I am in.

Harold, your doctrinal views I will continue to refute as long as you continue to promote this dung infested "blinder theology". When your ready to deal with the whole counsel of the Lord here I would then like to know how your above babble could explain Job and his standing before the Lord Justified and his sin NOT Imputed??

[jmgipson]

Yes John or Ray you idiotic ploughboys, smarten up, you ought to know better.

Ray, you kill me!!!

[harald]

Yeah, so what? (Ray Kikkert)

Yeah, so what. You could probably not, in your lukewarmness, care less for what Paul wrote by Spirit-inspiration in the original Greek. But I do.

23 That is, prior to him [Gr. tou, MASCULINE] who was to come, namely the faith [FEMININE],


How's that for "blinder theology".


Harald

[ray kikkert]

Here is the attachment of my review of the EAGC Conference.

Darth, thank you for putting to paper your clear definitions of the doctrines of Justification and Imputation of Righteousness. The Gospel of Christ is full of examples that vindicate this God honoring response of yours.

[ray kikkert]

Yeah, so what? (Ray Kikkert)

Yeah, so what. You could probably not, in your lukewarmness, care less for what Paul wrote by Spirit-inspiration in the original Greek. But I do.

23 That is, prior to him [Gr. tou, MASCULINE] who was to come, namely the faith [FEMININE],


How's that for "blinder theology".


Harald

Lukewarmness?? It is not that I care less for it. It is after all PART of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Something you ignore. I see you also ignored my challenge with regards to your theology for Job.

Can you Harold , in simple language explain how the doctrines of justification and imputation of righteousness are as valid for Job, David, Daniel..... as the New Testamnent saint??

Brother Darth was able to and he needed no lexicon or original Greek to come to an answer.


What I care less about is "Harold's Perspective on Paul" which includes this lexicon, and that original Greek. The Holy Spirit and Christ are not subserviant to these tools. They must honor and glorify Him as the Sovereign Lord.

[jmgipson]

Darth, thank you for putting to paper your clear definitions of the doctrines of Justification and Imputation of Righteousness. The Gospel of Christ is full of examples that vindicate this God honoring response of yours.

I have finished reading the paper and I must give my thanks with Ray. When you can see the definitions of these doctrines in writing, you can see how much in common you have with most in this forum. THANKS!

John

[lionovjudah]

THis reoccuring thought about justification has caused me to seriously look at the issue at hand.

One thing I find missing is any scriptural backup to justify eternal justification. Not logical conclusions, we can all do that. But solid biblical inspired words that explicitly or implicitly that speak of justification in eternity past, I cannot find. I see throughout the writ explicit teachings that speak completely against this thought.

For starters, not to blast out 20 at once, look at Abraham. He does not look backwards as we do, but only forward. "that God gave it to Abraham by promise." (Gal.3:18). This would have been the perfect opportunity for the Holy Spirit to say Abe looked back. But He doesnt. The example of Abraham in the epistles constantly speak of some future promise to be brought about by the faithfullness of God. What did the OT saints look forward to? The cross. When all were reconciled by His blood.

Now we can muddy the waters by speaking of some platonic concept of time and eternity, but we need not go there. The writ is perfectly clear to me.

"And these all having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Christ actually became our substitute. And was not only ordained to be.


Joe

[Brandan Kraft]

Joe, nobody here has said the work of justification took place "in" eternity. We're saying that imputation takes place in eternity.

[jmgipson]

Joe,

I think this verse as I wrote earlier speaks volumes.

Rom 4:8
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

3364 ouv me ou me {oo may}
Meaning: 1) never, certainly not, not at all, by no means
Origin: from 3756 and 3361;; particle
Usage: AV - not 56, in no wise 6, no 6, never + 1519 + 165 + 3588 6, no more at all + 2089 5, not tr 1, misc 14; 94

[ray kikkert]

THis reoccuring thought about justification has caused me to seriously look at the issue at hand.

One thing I find missing is any scriptural backup to justify eternal justification. Not logical conclusions, we can all do that. But solid biblical inspired words that explicitly or implicitly that speak of justification in eternity past, I cannot find. I see throughout the writ explicit teachings that speak completely against this thought.

For starters, not to blast out 20 at once, look at Abraham. He does not look backwards as we do, but only forward. "that God gave it to Abraham by promise." (Gal.3:18). This would have been the perfect opportunity for the Holy Spirit to say Abe looked back. But He doesnt. The example of Abraham in the epistles constantly speak of some future promise to be brought about by the faithfullness of God. What did the OT saints look forward to? The cross. When all were reconciled by His blood.

Now we can muddy the waters by speaking of some platonic concept of time and eternity, but we need not go there. The writ is perfectly clear to me.

"And these all having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Christ actually became our substitute. And was not only ordained to be.


Joe

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.Through faith we understand the the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:1-3.

Lets look at the accounts of Abraham in the Gospel:

1. Genesis 17:9
   And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
   Genesis 17:8-10 (in Context) Genesis 17 (Whole Chapter)

.... it is the Lord who is faithful and will preform that which He commands for His chosen people.

1. Genesis 21:12
   And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
   Genesis 21:11-13 (in Context) Genesis 21 (Whole Chapter)

God's sovereign purposes come first which includes His gracious covenant with His elect alone.

Consider Genesis 18 and 22. Who was it that appeared to and spoke to Abraham? The angel of the Lord. The angel of the Lord spoken of was none other then the second person of the Godhead, Jesus Christ.

Genesis 18: 18-19, the Lord has spoken it and He will preform His good pleasure.

1. Psalm 105:6
   O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
   Psalm 105:5-7 (in Context) Psalm 105 (Whole Chapter)

1. Isaiah 63:16
   Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
   Isaiah 63:15-17 (in Context) Isaiah 63 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luke 3:7-9 (in Context) Luke 3 (Whole Chapter)


Repentance is the gift of the Lord.

1. John 8:53
   Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
   John 8:52-54 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)
2. John 8:56
   Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
   John 8:55-57 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)
3. John 8:57
   Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
   John 8:56-58 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)
4. John 8:58
   Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
   John 8:57-59 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)

Abraham knew very well of His Redeemer. He was not put in some kind of Justification and Imputed Righteousness Purgatory.

1. Acts 13:26
   Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
   Acts 13:25-27 (in Context) Acts 13 (Whole Chapter)
2. Romans 4:1
   What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
   Romans 4:1-3 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
3. Romans 4:2
   For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
   Romans 4:1-3 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
4. Romans 4:3
   For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
   Romans 4:2-4 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
5. Romans 4:9
   Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
   Romans 4:8-10 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
6. Romans 4:12
   And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
   Romans 4:11-13 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
7. Romans 4:13
   For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
   Romans 4:12-14 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
8. Romans 4:16
   Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
   Romans 4:15-17 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)

That promise is sure only in Jesus Christ as determined by the Lord would save His elect.

1. Romans 9:7
   Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
   Romans 9:6-8 (in Context) Romans 9 (Whole Chapter)
2. Galatians 3:7
   Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
   Galatians 3:6-8 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
3. Galatians 3:8
   And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
   Galatians 3:7-9 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
4. Galatians 3:9
   So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
   Galatians 3:8-10 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
5. Galatians 3:14
   That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
   Galatians 3:13-15 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
6. Galatians 3:16
   Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
   Galatians 3:15-17 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
7. Galatians 3:18
   For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
   Galatians 3:17-19 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
8. Galatians 3:29
   And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
   Galatians 3:28-30 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)

It is hard to fathom that you can miss that the Lord in eternity saw His elect child as justified and did not impute sin to Him on account of seeing Abraham as righteous in the Lamb slain from before the foundations of the earth. That is how the Lord seen Abraham among the other Old Testament saints.

[lionovjudah]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.Through faith we understand the the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:1-3.

Lets look at the accounts of Abraham in the Gospel:

1. Genesis 17:9
   And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
   Genesis 17:8-10 (in Context) Genesis 17 (Whole Chapter)

.... it is the Lord who is faithful and will preform that which He commands for His chosen people.

1. Genesis 21:12
   And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
   Genesis 21:11-13 (in Context) Genesis 21 (Whole Chapter)

God's sovereign purposes come first which includes His gracious covenant with His elect alone.

Consider Genesis 18 and 22. Who was it that appeared to and spoke to Abraham? The angel of the Lord. The angel of the Lord spoken of was none other then the second person of the Godhead, Jesus Christ.

Genesis 18: 18-19, the Lord has spoken it and He will preform His good pleasure.

1. Psalm 105:6
   O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
   Psalm 105:5-7 (in Context) Psalm 105 (Whole Chapter)

1. Isaiah 63:16
   Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
   Isaiah 63:15-17 (in Context) Isaiah 63 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luke 3:7-9 (in Context) Luke 3 (Whole Chapter)


Repentance is the gift of the Lord.

1. John 8:53
   Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
   John 8:52-54 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)
2. John 8:56
   Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
   John 8:55-57 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)
3. John 8:57
   Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
   John 8:56-58 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)
4. John 8:58
   Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
   John 8:57-59 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)

Abraham knew very well of His Redeemer. He was not put in some kind of Justification and Imputed Righteousness Purgatory.

1. Acts 13:26
   Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
   Acts 13:25-27 (in Context) Acts 13 (Whole Chapter)
2. Romans 4:1
   What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
   Romans 4:1-3 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
3. Romans 4:2
   For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
   Romans 4:1-3 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
4. Romans 4:3
   For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
   Romans 4:2-4 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
5. Romans 4:9
   Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
   Romans 4:8-10 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
6. Romans 4:12
   And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
   Romans 4:11-13 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
7. Romans 4:13
   For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
   Romans 4:12-14 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
8. Romans 4:16
   Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
   Romans 4:15-17 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)

That promise is sure only in Jesus Christ as determined by the Lord would save His elect.

1. Romans 9:7
   Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
   Romans 9:6-8 (in Context) Romans 9 (Whole Chapter)
2. Galatians 3:7
   Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
   Galatians 3:6-8 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
3. Galatians 3:8
   And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
   Galatians 3:7-9 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
4. Galatians 3:9
   So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
   Galatians 3:8-10 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
5. Galatians 3:14
   That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
   Galatians 3:13-15 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
6. Galatians 3:16
   Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
   Galatians 3:15-17 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
7. Galatians 3:18
   For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
   Galatians 3:17-19 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
8. Galatians 3:29
   And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
   Galatians 3:28-30 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)

It is hard to fathom that you can miss that the Lord in eternity saw His elect child as justified and did not impute sin to Him on account of seeing Abraham as righteous in the Lamb slain from before the foundations of the earth. That is how the Lord seen Abraham among the other Old Testament saints.

Ray, no need to place a barrage of scripture that proves nothing of the sort. Not one speaks of Abraham being justified before being born. Instead the scripture speak of Abraham looking forward to the promise. Not looking back.

Look, I am not going to repeat 100 times. not one of the 1500 verses you mention equal justification.imputation before the worlds were created, not one Ray. Infact until one adressed Galatians3 that i posted, there is no need to go further. This whole concept you strive against the writteen word to promote is just not there Ray. You would have to conclude that we are not born in need of a savior Ray. We are born in grace, then fall when we sin. I dont know, but this sounds pelagian to me. All you mention does not equal justification or imputation truthfuilly. You can say it does, but that does not make it so. In fact it is repeatedly stated as a promise that God WOULD fulfil, not had fulfilled right? All you have shown is Gods plan of salvation is not by works. Of which I agree 100%.


Answer one question please. What is the promise and did Abraham look back or forward. That is all I would like to know.

[lionovjudah]

It is hard to fathom that you can miss that the Lord in eternity saw His elect child as justified and did not impute sin to Him on account of seeing Abraham as righteous in the Lamb slain from before the foundations of the earth. That is how the Lord seen Abraham among the other Old Testament saints.

Election does not equal imputation

Eternal Union does not equal imputation.

These words are not synonyms ray. Not even close. Was not adams sin imputed to Abraham? And to all of his posterity? What are we concluding here. Christs death is not some secondary event to play out a decree. It is the consumation of ALL events in the redemptive history of mankind. There is no remission without the shedding of blood period. Christ did not shed His blood in eternity. He was not whipped in eternity. He did not die in eternity. He died in 30 ad. We also forget that it wa His obedience that is imputed also. And the Law was not even given yet, therefore what did he obey?

[ray kikkert]

Ray, no need to place a barrage of scripture that proves nothing of the sort. Not one speaks of Abraham being justified before being born. Instead the scripture speak of Abraham looking forward to the promise. Not looking back.

According to the Lord He was Justified and also the Lord did not impute sin to Abraham. You may stop your ears from witnessing this truth but the Soverign Lord and His eternal, deteminate counsel come first.

Look, I am not going to repeat 100 times. not one of the 1500 verses you mention equal justification.imputation before the worlds were created, not one Ray.

Well from everlasting to everlasting He is God and that includes His eternal purposes.

Infact until one adressed Galatians3 that i posted, there is no need to go further.

No need to go further. I dare say Galatians 3 will not be explained properly if the whole counsel of the Lord is not taken into account. The apostle seemed intent on doing so, why not you?

This whole concept you strive against the writteen word to promote is just not there Ray. You would have to conclude that we are not born in need of a savior Ray.

I conclude from the account of Abraham that he not only was in need of a Redeemer but knew that His Redeemer liveth, spoke with Him and rejoiced to see Him. So do I.

We are born in grace, then fall when we sin. I dont know, but this sounds pelagian to me.

We are born and conceived in sin. The Lord by His determinate counsel willed to save His elect whom He loved. That His glory and honored may be magnified. Read John 17. I have no idea where you get Pelagianism from. Please explain.

All you mention does not equal justification or imputation truthfuilly. You can say it does, but that does not make it so.

Well then do not take my word for it , read again Numbers 23 and 24. Why did the Lord not see iniquity in Jacob??

In fact it is repeatedly stated as a promise that God WOULD fulfil, not had fulfilled right? All you have shown is Gods plan of salvation is not by works. Of which I agree 100%.


Answer one question please. What is the promise and did Abraham look back or forward. That is all I would like to know.

Well a clear example is Christ speaking of Abraham, what I sent through regarding John 8:54-58. But alas, as for your answer to your question the promise is eternal salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ and that same Redeemer Abraham knew of and rejoiced to see His day and verily Abraham saw it.

Consider Gill's exposition of the John 8 text:

John 8:54

Ver. 54. Jesus answered, if I honour myself, my honour is nothing,.... It is empty and vain, and will not continue; see 2Co 10:18;

it is my Father that honoureth me: by a voice from heaven, both at his baptism, and transfiguration, declaring him to be his beloved Son, and by the works and miracles he did by him; as he afterwards also honoured him by raising him from the dead, and setting him at his own right hand, by pouring forth his Spirit on his disciples, and succeeding his Gospel in every place:

of whom ye say that he is your God; your covenant God and Father, being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; of this the Jews boasted. The Alexandrian copy, and some others, and all the Oriental versions read, "our God".


John 8:55

Ver. 55. Yet ye have not known him,.... Not as the Father of Christ, nor as in Christ, whom to know is life eternal: they had no spiritual knowledge of him, nor communion with him; nor did they know truly his mind and will, nor how to worship and serve him as they ought:

but I know him; his nature and perfections, being of the same nature, and having the same perfections with him; and his whole mind and will lying in his bosom: nor did, or does any know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom he is pleased to reveal him:

and if I should say, I know him not, I should be a liar like unto you. Our Lord still intimates, that they were of their father the devil, and imitated him not only as a murderer, but as a liar: this is quite contrary to the character they give of themselves, for they say {x}, that an Israelite will not tell a lie.

But I know him, and keep his saying: do his will, and always the things that please him, observe his law, preach his Gospel, fulfil all righteousness, and work out the salvation of men, which were the will and work of his Father he came to do.

{x} Maimon. in Misn. Pesachim, c. 8. sect. 6.


John 8:56

Ver. 56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day,.... Or "he was desirous to see my day", as the Syriac and Arabic versions rightly render the word; or "very desirous", as the Persic version: and indeed, this was what many kings and prophets, and righteous men, were desirous of, even of seeing the Messiah and his day: we often read of xyvmh twmy, "the days of the Messiah": and the Jews, in their Talmud {y}, dispute much about them, how long they will be; one says forty years, another seventy, another three ages: it is the opinion of some, that they shall be according to the number of the days of the year, three hundred and sixty five years; some say seven thousand years, and others as many as have been from the beginning of the world; and others, as many as from Noah; but we know the day of Christ better, and how long he was here on earth; and whose whole time here is called his day; this Abraham had a very great desire to see:

and he saw [it] and was glad; he saw it with an eye of faith, he saw it in the promise, that in his seed all the nations of the earth should be blessed; and when it was promised him he should have a son, which was the beginning of the fulfilment of the other, he laughed, and therefore his son was called Isaac, to which some reference is here made; he saw him in the birth of his son Isaac and rejoiced, and therefore called his name Isaac, that is, "laughter": he saw also Christ and his day, his sufferings, death, and resurrection from the dead, in a figure; in the binding of Isaac, in the sacrifice of the ram, and in the receiving of Isaac, as from the dead; and he not only saw the Messiah in his type Melchizedek, and who some think was the Son of God himself, but he saw the second person, the promised Messiah, in an human form, Ge 18:2; and all this was matter of joy and gladness to him. This brings to mind what the Jews say at the rejoicing at the law, when the book of the law is brought out {z}

"Abraham rejoiced with the rejoicing of the law, he that cometh shall come, the branch with the joy of the law; Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Samuel, David, Solomon, rejoiced with the joy of the law; he that cometh shall come, the branch with the joy of the law.''

{y} T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 99. 1. {z} Seder Tephillot, fol. 309. 1. Ed. Basil.


John 8:57

Ver. 57. Then said the Jews unto him, thou art not yet fifty years old,.... One copy reads forty, but he was not that; no, not much more than thirty; not above two or three and thirty years old: the reason of their fixing on this age of fifty might be, because Christ might look like such an one, being a man of sorrows and acquainted with griefs, as well as of great gravity; or they might be free in allowing him as many years, as could be thought he should be of, and gain their point; for what were fifty years, when Abraham had been dead above two thousand? and therefore he could never see Abraham, nor Abraham see him; moreover, this age of fifty, is often spoken of by the Jews, and much observed; at the age of fifty, a man is fit to give counsel, they say {a}; hence the Levites were dismissed from service at that age, it being more proper for them then to give advice, than to bear burdens; a Methurgeman, or an interpreter in a congregation, was not chosen under fifty years of age {b}; and if a man died before he was fifty, this was called the death of cutting off {c}; a violent death, a death inflicted by God, as a punishment; Christ lived not to that age, he was now many years short of it:

and hast thou seen Abraham? if he had not, Abraham had seen him, in the sense before given, and in which Christ asserted it, and it is to be understood.

{a} Pirke Abot, c. 5. sect. 21. {b} T. Bab. Chagiga, fol. 14. 1. Juchasin, fol. 44. 2. {c} T. Hieros. Biccurim, fol. 64. 3. T. Bab. Moed Katon, fol. 28. 1. Macsecheth Semachot, c. 3. sect. 9. Kimchi in Isa. xxxviii. 10.


John 8:58

Ver. 58. Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you,.... Whether it will be believed or not, it is certainly fact:

before Abraham was, I am; which is to be understood, not of his being in the purpose and decree of God, foreordained to sufferings, and to glory; for so all the elect of God may be said to be before Abraham, being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world: or that Christ was man, before Abraham became the father of many nations; that is, before the calling of the Gentiles; for nothing is said in the text about his being the father of many nations; it is a bold and impudent addition to it: and besides, Abraham was made the father of many nations, as Ishmaelites, Israelites, Hagarenes, &c. long before the incarnation of Christ; yea, he was so from the very promise in Ge 17:5, which so runs, "a father of many nations have I made thee"; so that this appears a false sense of the text, which is to be understood of the deity, eternity, and immutability of Christ, and refers to the passage in Ex 3:14. "I am that I am--I am hath sent me unto you", the true Jehovah; and so Christ was before Abraham was in being, the everlasting I am, the eternal God, which is, and was, and is to come: he appeared in an human form to our first parents before Abraham was, and was manifested as the Mediator, Saviour, and living Redeemer, to whom all the patriarchs before Abraham looked, and by whom they were saved: he was concerned in the creation of all things out of nothing, as the efficient cause thereof; he was set up from everlasting as Mediator; and the covenant of grace was made with him, and the blessings and promises of it were put into his hands before the world began; the eternal election of men to everlasting life was made in him before the foundation of the world; and he had a glory with his Father before the world was; yea, from all eternity he was the Son of God, of the same nature with him, and equal to him; and his being of the same nature proves his eternity, as well as deity, that he is from everlasting to everlasting God; and is what he ever was, and will be what he now is: he is immutable, the same today, yesterday, and for ever; in his nature, love, grace, and fulness, he is the invariable and unchangeable I am.

[lionovjudah]

According to the Lord He was Justified and also the Lord did not impute sin to Abraham. You may stop your ears from witnessing this truth but the Soverign Lord and His eternal, deteminate counsel come first.

My ears are open ray. He did not impute sin because it was purposed to be convered by the sacraficial death of Christ.

No need to go further. I dare say Galatians 3 will not be explained properly if the whole counsel of the Lord is not taken into account. The apostle seemed intent on doing so, why not you?

Are you telling me one cannot find truth in scripture without using all 66 book? I know you are not saying that. So again, Paul expounds much truth In galatians 3 and romans 4. We need not read Job for the answer

ray]I conclude from the account of Abraham that he not only was in need of a Redeemer but knew that His Redeemer liveth, spoke with Him and rejoiced to see Him. So do I.We are born and conceived in sin. The Lord by His determinate counsel willed to save His elect whom He loved. That His glory and honored may be magnified. Read John 17. I have no idea where you get Pelagianism from. Please explain.

Pelagious claimed man is born in a somewhat neutral state with some grace. Then falls from this grace only when they consciously sin. What you appear to be proposing is that this "determinate council" you so "eloquently" repeat ad nauseum(i just learned what that meant so I used it), Saves the elect from nothing. Since we are viewed as justified before creation, imputed before the foundations of the world with Christs righteoussness.

Well then do not take my word for it , read again Numbers 23 and 24. Why did the Lord not see iniquity in Jacob??

I have read it. And it more accurately means He has not held the offenses against those whom He has found satisfaction in the death of Christ.

Look at Jer 50:20:

er 50:20In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and [there shall be] none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve. At what time? Why did He not say, I have already pardoned them in eternity past? Again he says I Will Pardon them. Not He has pardoned them without viewing the death of Christ

Gill speaks of the eye of faith. This stil looks forward to the promise and not backwards. This is a roadblock that you cannot get over. Not once is the promise spoken of as completed or in the past.

As an aside, why did Christ have to die Ray? If all it took for God to view us as righteouss and justified before the foundations of the world, then why the horrible death of His Only Begotten son? Please do not tell me it was only to show us His secret determinate will. Please do not say Christ shed His blood for no reason. Why would God humble Himself, and become man. Flesh of our flesh, bone of our bone. Walk the earth for 33 years.

Did Christ shed His blood before the foundations of the world?

There is NO remission without the shedding of blood.

[melted]

I have just posted an article that speaks to the objective and subjective aspects of justification. While some may not agree with some of the conclusions therein, I think it may help bring light to at least some of the many issues that confuse this topic.

http://www.bornagain.net/index.php?a...0Justification

[jmgipson]

I have just posted an article that speaks to the objective and subjective aspects of justification. While some may not agree with some of the conclusions therein, I think it may help bring light to at least some of the many issues that confuse this topic.

http://www.bornagain.net/index.php?a...0Justification

Makes sense Kyle!

1 Thess 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 2:3
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Rom 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

John

[ray kikkert]

My ears are open ray. He did not impute sin because it was purposed to be convered by the sacraficial death of Christ.

Correct. The Lord's purpose is first and foremost.

Are you telling me one cannot find truth in scripture without using all 66 book? I know you are not saying that. So again, Paul expounds much truth In galatians 3 and romans 4. We need not read Job for the answer

Yes you as I need to read Job. The whole Gospel must be taken into consideration to do justice to the text exegetically.

Pelagious claimed man is born in a somewhat neutral state with some grace. Then falls from this grace only when they consciously sin. What you appear to be proposing is that this "determinate council" you so "eloquently" repeat ad nauseum(i just learned what that meant so I used it), Saves the elect from nothing. Since we are viewed as justified before creation, imputed before the foundations of the world with Christs righteoussness.

I said man(including me) are born and conceived in sin. I totally detest that man falls from the Lord's grace. Remember Joe I maintain that the Lord views us as justified and His purpose was accomplished in time at the cross. This does not mean there are 2 justifications, it is one in the same. I see your nicely ignore my post as others to the effect.

I have read it. And it more accurately means He has not held the offenses against those whom He has found satisfaction in the death of Christ.

Wow, God actually seen no iniquity in the elect, before Christ actually in time died on the cross. The death of Christ would indeed take place some time after Baalam's vision, yet according to the Lord sin cursed elect vessels of honor are viewed by the Lord as without sin.

Look at Jer 50:20:

er 50:20In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and [there shall be] none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve. At what time? Why did He not say, I have already pardoned them in eternity past? Again he says I Will Pardon them. Not He has pardoned them without viewing the death of Christ

...and what of elect vessels as Jeremiah? Are they cast to purgatory till Christ in time suffered on the cross? What of their state before the death and resurrection of Christ??

Gill speaks of the eye of faith. This stil looks forward to the promise and not backwards. This is a roadblock that you cannot get over. Not once is the promise spoken of as completed or in the past.

According to the Lord it is. If it was not the roadblock into eternal bliss for the patriarchs before Christs death would needs be purgatory or transition place of some kind. What of this roadblock? What of those vessels of dishonor? Is there a possibility that they as well are in a transition place before the death and resuurection of Christ ?

As an aside, why did Christ have to die Ray?

It was the determinate counsel of the Lord to do so.

If all it took for God to view us as righteouss and justified before the foundations of the world, then why the horrible death of His Only Begotten son?

As I have said time and again, that the Lord may be glorified and honored by it. His Sovereign good pleasure comes first.

Please do not tell me it was only to show us His secret determinate will.

Is it then still a secret Joe??

Please do not say Christ shed His blood for no reason.

Again, the Lord's purpose was to honor and glorify Himself.

Why would God humble Himself, and become man. Flesh of our flesh, bone of our bone. Walk the earth for 33 years.

The Lord saw fit that His honor and glory should be manifested in this way.

Did Christ shed His blood before the foundations of the world?

Again the Lord saw His elect as such in the shed blood of Christ and His determinate counsel was set forth in time.

There is NO remission without the shedding of blood.

This was accomplished in time as well as determined by the Sovereign will and good pleasure of the Lord.

[jmgipson]

Joe,
If we follow this line of thinking we would have to say that we are not yet justified or righteous. We still have to stand before God.

2 Tim 4:8
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Rev 19:8
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.