The Timing of Justification and Imputation

[lionovjudah]

How is it , in your line of reasoning.... that you think that the reprobate old testament wicked souls are in hell......... but that elect old testament saints souls are not in heaven, but elsewhere??

Where then are they??

You have said that they are not in purgatory,
nor that they are not in outer space.

when pressed last time , you stated they were in Abraham's bosom.
Yet it has been proven that "Abraham's bosom" is another term for heaven.

The other theory you have posited is that these souls may indeed be in 1 of 3 heavens. To which one of these heavens is the old testament elect soul in? How is this "heaven" defined ??

I find it odd that you would advocate that the old testament wicked reprobate soul is in hell, but that in the opposite direction , the elect old testament soul would be denied fellowship in heaven with the Godhead.

Please explain.

For some odd reason you continue to say I have said things I never said!!! Good debate technique ray. You continue to speak of Elijahs whirlwind experience, and lump my answetr their and connect it to OT saints location p[rior to Christs resurrection. perhaps it is my fault and have not been clear. So lets try it again. I will also be more careful in the terms I use.

At the onset, nowhere has it been "proved" that abrahams bosom =the heavenly throne of God. So we can quickly move past this.

1) When Elijah was seen being caught up into a whirlwind, this account does not equal him going to be with the Lord. Heaven used in this account means the sky.

2) All ot testament people who have died prior to the cross/ressurection of Christ, the first to RISE from the dead are in Shoel/hades. Perhaps different compartments. Hence the Rich man being able to talk to lazarus and Abraham.

As I look back, I have not been as clear as I could have. Therefore positing the above 2 answers is as clear as I can get.


3) The souls of those who dies prior to the res of Christ did not go to be with Christ. Because He was not there in bodily form yet. \


this also leads into eternal Justification. Is it the contention of those who propose this that Christ has always been with the Father in bodily form? Were His hands/feet/side pierced before the foundations of the world?

If you say yes to this, then this completely destroys His incarnation. Unless you can believe His incarnation happenned in eternity also.

[Mrs. Gill]

Joe,
In simple terms, you are thinking in time on everything. Do you see that God is not bound by this in any way? I think we all agree that Christ had to come to earth, to atone, etc.......but, this is as good as done in God's eyes in eternity. You cannot explain OT saints any other way. Are you thinking of eternity as before time, or a really long time ago or something? OT saints are and have been in the same place(with God) since their death. Well, more later if time permits.

[beloved57]

Kentucky Kid, thats a good post, it appears to be sound and scriptural what you are presenting...

[ray kikkert]

For some odd reason you continue to say I have said things I never said!!! Good debate technique ray.

Well you can check for yourself Joe. I did not list the statements you made in vain. See I believe that good debate skills means being honest and forthright with the statements one brings forth. That is why I listed the statements you made. They are yours , not mine. I am dealing with what you are stating.

You continue to speak of Elijahs whirlwind experience, and lump my answetr their and connect it to OT saints location p[rior to Christs resurrection. perhaps it is my fault and have not been clear. So lets try it again. I will also be more careful in the terms I use.

At the onset, nowhere has it been "proved" that abrahams bosom =the heavenly throne of God. So we can quickly move past this.

See Joe , that is not good debating skills. You stating that Abraham's bosom does not equal the heavenly throne does not make this the truth. You have to first establish this truth to be ligit by a faithful exegesis of the text in question. So you may quickly want to pass over this , yet I would rather see what defintion then you have of Abraham's bosom if it indeed is not the heavenly throne of God.

1) When Elijah was seen being caught up into a whirlwind, this account does not equal him going to be with the Lord. Heaven used in this account means the sky.

Okay Joe , good debating skills would be to list the actual text in question first. Then you would have to explain why you believe the term "heaven" here means "sky" rather than the heavenly throne of God while being truthful with the text as a whole. I hope you see why I mockingly state that in your world Elijah is floating about in the sky awaiting entrance into the heavenly throne of God.

2) All ot testament people who have died prior to the cross/ressurection of Christ, the first to RISE from the dead are in Shoel/hades. Perhaps different compartments. Hence the Rich man being able to talk to lazarus and Abraham.

Okay Joe this really is not "being more careful". What is rising from this Shoel/hades?? The body or the soul. If the body state thus. If the soul, state thus. If you say the soul, then please give a definition of what this Shoel/ hades is and the different compartments you "perhaps" think are here. You would also have to align this with the text (which you again forget to quote from Scripture) of the rich man/Lazurus/Abraham parable.

As I look back, I have not been as clear as I could have. Therefore positing the above 2 answers is as clear as I can get.

Well I will ask for some clarity here. Your going to have to be able to defend your answer not only for me, but maybe for some other poor soul that would have the pleasure of discussing this topic with you.

3) The souls of those who dies prior to the res of Christ did not go to be with Christ. Because He was not there in bodily form yet. \

Okay Joe once again, being "more clear" would mean you will have to be able to back this up with a clear exegetical answer from Scripture that would indeed deal with the topic at hand here which is "where are the souls of elect old testament souls after there death, but before the death, resurrection, and final judgement of our Saviour"

this also leads into eternal Justification. Is it the contention of those who propose this that Christ has always been with the Father in bodily form? Were His hands/feet/side pierced before the foundations of the world?

Joe, I would suggest you answer the questions above, before going on yet another wild adventure free from truthful exegetical restraint.
Lest you be thought to be skirting the issue at hand.

If you say yes to this, then this completely destroys His incarnation. Unless you can believe His incarnation happenned in eternity also.

Well Joe, their is the skirting of a previous issue here, that has not been answered by yourself. But I will ask yet again an answer.

How is it you can advocate that the wicked reprobate old testament soul is in hell??
Is this an eternal hell. Perhaps these reprobate souls too are floating about while being tormented at the same time. Is it that they are perhaps in different compartments of Satan's bosom?? Perhaps it is not even Satan's bosom but some wicked demons bosom?? Perhaps hell does not mean the same thing as a demons bosom??

Please explain.

[jmgipson]

Divine adoption, or sonship, took place before any work of Christ was wrought in time, for any of the sons of men; it was before his incarnation and birth; forasmuch then, or because "the children are partakers of flesh and blood", the children of God, who are so by adopting grace; therefore "he also", Christ, "himself took part of the same"; for though the nature he assumed was what was in common to all mankind, yet he assumed it with a peculiar view to the children of God, the spiritual seed of Abraham; whose nature he is said to take, and for whose sake he was the child born, and the Son given, (Isa. 9:6; Heb. 2:14, 16) and in consequence they must be the children of God before Christ suffered and died; and, indeed, he suffered and died for them under this character, considered as the children of God by adopting grace; for he died not only for the elect of God among the "Jews, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad"; that is, those who were already the children of God by adopting grace, who were scattered throughout the whole Gentile world. This relates to the gathering of all the elect in one, in Christ, in the dispensation of the fulness of times; when Christ suffered as their Surety, Head, and Representative; and when they were all considered as the children of God, whether in heaven or on earth, and whether among Jews or Gentiles, (Eph. 1:10; John 11:51, 52) and in order to bring these many sons to glory, it became him to be made perfect through sufferings, and that through his redemption of them thereby, they might receive, actually in their own persons, the adoption before provided for them, as before observed; see (Heb. 2:10; Gal. 4:5).

The elect of God were espoused to Christ in eternity; as has been shown in the preceding chapter; which serves to illustrate and prove the relation of sonship to God so early; for as in natural and civil marriage, if a man marries a king’s daughter, he becomes his son in law; as David to Saul: or if a woman marries a king’s son, she becomes the king’s daughter: so the elect of God, his church and people, being espoused to the Son of God, they become the sons and daughters of the Lord God almighty, the King of kings; and hence the church is called the King’s daughter, (Ps. 45:13) and these persons being betrothed to Christ, the Son of God, in eternity, as they were the spouse of Christ, they must be, and must be considered as being the sons of God so early. (John Gill)

If we are considered sons by God before Christ went to the cross, then we must be justified in God’s mind to be sons.

John

[lionovjudah]

Well Joe, their is the skirting of a previous issue here, that has not been answered by yourself. But I will ask yet again an answer.

How is it you can advocate that the wicked reprobate old testament soul is in hell??
Is this an eternal hell. Perhaps these reprobate souls too are floating about while being tormented at the same time. Is it that they are perhaps in different compartments of Satan's bosom?? Perhaps it is not even Satan's bosom but some wicked demons bosom?? Perhaps hell does not mean the same thing as a demons bosom??

Please explain.

Raymond, I am done for now. You in no way will lead me along like a puppy dog with your inane requests and constant repeating. You have it all figured out anyway, wrong as it may be, you still have your own koolaid induced conclusions. I played your game for a while. I graciously clarified my postion for you countless times, yet you accuse me of unfaithful exegesis. Well I know I am speaking to Johnny Ploughboy from Wingham Ray. I do find it ironic you speak to Harald becasue he is too complicated, yet you scramble out of answering anything I have asked by quoting the infallible Gill and Calvin and the COD and of course Job(The answer for all in quieries).

I have shown you the different heavens. I have stated where scritpure alone says these saints are, I have clarified my words, but yet you mock continuously.


Anyway, when you have something to offer other than vain repetitions, Gill, Calvin, COD, I will then perhaps partake of your nonsense. You do the same tactic in all of your debates. you canstantly ask the same questions and spin a web of deceit greater than most politicians. You throw in your boring cliche's. Honestly Ray, you are a good theological parrot, faith by proxy is your life. Now you go do an exegesis on the term "faith by proxy" and the answer is not in Job But I have to go clean the cat litter now, of which ranks higher at this time thrn playing baal with you. Next time I ask to play football, dont bring a hockey puck.

AS an aside, DOn Cherry is smarter and definately funnier than you

[melted]

Raymond, I am done for now. You in no way will lead me along like a puppy dog with your inane requests and constant repeating. You have it all figured out anyway, wrong as it may be, you still have your own koolaid induced conclusions. I played your game for a while. I graciously clarified my postion for you countless times, yet you accuse me of unfaithful exegesis. Well I know I am speaking to Johnny Ploughboy from Wingham Ray. I do find it ironic you speak to Harald becasue he is too complicated, yet you scramble out of answering anything I have asked by quoting the infallible Gill and Calvin and the COD and of course Job(The answer for all in quieries).

I have shown you the different heavens. I have stated where scritpure alone says these saints are, I have clarified my words, but yet you mock continuously.


Anyway, when you have something to offer other than vain repetitions, Gill, Calvin, COD, I will then perhaps partake of your nonsense. You do the same tactic in all of your debates. you canstantly ask the same questions and spin a web of deceit greater than most politicians. You throw in your boring cliche's. Honestly Ray, you are a good theological parrot, faith by proxy is your life. Now you go do an exegesis on the term "faith by proxy" and the answer is not in Job But I have to go clean the cat litter now, of which ranks higher at this time thrn playing baal with you. Next time I ask to play football, dont bring a hockey puck.

AS an aside, DOn Cherry is smarter and definately funnier than you

This kind of rhetoric is rediculous and embarassing. I cringe with embarassment for you. Is it not possible to read over your post prior to hitting submit and remove obvious personal attacks and childish remarks?

It may be a good idea to also review your own signature before clicking the submit button.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

[harald]

John Gipson,

In your post #365 above you apparently quoted John Gill. Shouldn't you give credit where credit is due?

Harald

[melted]

John Gipson,

In your post #365 above you apparently quoted John Gill. Shouldn't you give credit where credit is due?

Harald

He did give credit, Harald.

(John Gill)

[Brandan Kraft]

John Gipson,

In your post #365 above you apparently quoted John Gill. Shouldn't you give credit where credit is due?

Harald

Harald, this is the second time you've said this to John. Are you out to prove him wrong by showing him to plagiarize? I hope this is not so as it would only demonstrate an inability on your part to defend your position logically and biblically.

Kyle, thanks for your help!

[lionovjudah]

This kind of rhetoric is rediculous and embarassing. I cringe with embarassment for you. Is it not possible to read over your post prior to hitting submit and remove obvious personal attacks and childish remarks?

It may be a good idea to also review your own signature before clicking the submit button.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

Kyle, button up your shirt, your heart is falling out. Believe me, Ray can dish it out and he can take it. He is a big boy.

I said nothing that is not true. And if I offended Don Cherry, I apologize.

[jmgipson]

John Gipson,

In your post #365 above you apparently quoted John Gill. Shouldn't you give credit where credit is due?

Harald

Thanks Kyle and Brandan. I need say no more.

John

[doctr_of_grace]

Joe,

I am sorry you have decided to no longer defend your position. I have been there myself at times and I do understand. This idea of yours though will either go away on this thread or it needs to be explained if you want anyone to give it consideration.

The OT saints are as imputed with righteousness as the rest of the elect. (I do equate justification and righteousness imputed). I think Mrs Gill hit the nail on the head when she asked you about "time" being part of your thinking.

Most dispensationalists see prophesy as historical events being fufilled. It is actually much more than that. It has to do with God's decree and how God will never fail in accomplishing his desire or decree. To say that OT saints were not in God's presence seems to be a novel thought for me as a reformed believer. You have failed to show this is in fact the case from scripture while accusing Ray of not using scripture. When Ray quotes Gill or Calvin there are scriptural references (perhaps you scanned over it too quickly) or even didn't bother reading it because it was not Ray's owns words. Nothing wrong with using these men when proving a point (IMHO).

Anyways ... I would hope you wouldn't quit before your job was completed. If you do so be it. The koolaid remarks should be saved for really special blunders if over used it loses it's comic relief (LOL)

Out for now ... Jan

[lionovjudah]

Joe,
In simple terms, you are thinking in time on everything. Do you see that God is not bound by this in any way? I think we all agree that Christ had to come to earth, to atone, etc.......but, this is as good as done in God's eyes in eternity. You cannot explain OT saints any other way. Are you thinking of eternity as before time, or a really long time ago or something? OT saints are and have been in the same place(with God) since their death. Well, more later if time permits.

Angela: God is not bound by time, He binds time. He starts at the end and works backwards per se'. Time is bound by His providential workings to bring to fruition His eternal decree. EJ justification is much more than just saying God knows and it as good as done. Noone is arguing this, at least I am not. It is more than God viewing the cross in eternity. It is His actual viewing it at 30 ad.

Yes there is a way to explain the OT saints. Explain it the way scripture explains it. They looked FORWARD, not backwards for their hope in everlasting life. They looked forward for the ressurection unto life.
Since you and Janny are nice, I will t=reluctantly throw my hat back in the ring. And for Ray's sake, letus deal with one topic at a time please.


1) How could OT saints be in Heaven with Christ before He Himself rose? THis is the question. How were their sins forgiven without the shedding of Blood. This could nto be accomplished by their sacrifices. This had to be accomplished with a substitutionary sacrifice in Christ. Now, I asked , "How could Christ have shed His blood prior to His incarnation? TO answer because God is eternal is no answer. IT is a truth, but no answer. IF the elects sins were forgiven, just because God decreed they would be forgiven prior to His son's death, then why send Christ to die? WHy find Mary, why would the Almighty Sovereign God lower Himself and take the form of the created man? The cross is not an after thought with no implications. The cross ratified His decree, The cross was His testament, His fulfillment of His promise. You say they were with God, yet as I pointed out in John 3:13, Christ Himself says NO MAN has, has angela, no man has ascended except Him. Paul says Christ IS the first to rise from the dead.

God knows all, God sees all, God knew I would get married may 1 1993 or 1994 which is it I forgot. Anyway, He most certainly planned every day of my life, but I was not married until may 1 199?

[GraceAmbassador]

Raymond, I am done for now. You in no way will lead me along like a puppy dog with your inane requests and constant repeating. You have it all figured out anyway, wrong as it may be, you still have your own koolaid induced conclusions. I played your game for a while. I graciously clarified my postion for you countless times, yet you accuse me of unfaithful exegesis. Well I know I am speaking to Johnny Ploughboy from Wingham Ray. I do find it ironic you speak to Harald becasue he is too complicated, yet you scramble out of answering anything I have asked by quoting the infallible Gill and Calvin and the COD and of course Job(The answer for all in quieries).

I have shown you the different heavens. I have stated where scritpure alone says these saints are, I have clarified my words, but yet you mock continuously.


Anyway, when you have something to offer other than vain repetitions, Gill, Calvin, COD, I will then perhaps partake of your nonsense. You do the same tactic in all of your debates. you canstantly ask the same questions and spin a web of deceit greater than most politicians. You throw in your boring cliche's. Honestly Ray, you are a good theological parrot, faith by proxy is your life. Now you go do an exegesis on the term "faith by proxy" and the answer is not in Job But I have to go clean the cat litter now, of which ranks higher at this time thrn playing baal with you. Next time I ask to play football, dont bring a hockey puck.

AS an aside, DOn Cherry is smarter and definately funnier than you

There are issues that are debatable here; The Bible speaks of "the heavenlies, third heaven (although it does not say where is the first), Abraham's boson, Sheol" and other expressions, but this is not the way to find out and discuss the issue. At the same time, to deny that "be absent from the body is to be present with THE LORD" (the Glorified Jesus) is pure immaturity.

Now, whether Ray is a big boy or not is not the focus of this forum. If someone failed to take their dose of A.D.D. medicine, please, think twice before posting. I for one have for a long time have gotten sick of childsh tantrums; that's why I refrain from posting in threads that the poster is merely arguing to be the center of attentions with no bona fide desire for discovery. I post once and twice and then leave. I hope the fact that one is a paying subscriber will not give them right to say and write whatever they want here.

Milt

[doctr_of_grace]

Yes there is a way to explain the OT saints. Explain it the way scripture explains it. They looked FORWARD, not backwards for their hope in everlasting life. They looked forward for the ressurection unto life.
Since you and Janny are nice, I will t=reluctantly throw my hat back in the ring. And for Ray's sake, letus deal with one topic at a time please.

Joe ... thanks for the compliment. I fear after this thread is finished you won't think I am so nice . Why does it matter whether a person looks backwards or forwards to the cross in order for it to be effectual? The instrument is faith is it not?

1) How could OT saints be in Heaven with Christ before He Himself rose? THis is the question. How were their sins forgiven without the shedding of Blood. This could nto be accomplished by their sacrifices. This had to be accomplished with a substitutionary sacrifice in Christ. Now, I asked , "How could Christ have shed His blood prior to His incarnation? TO answer because God is eternal is no answer. IT is a truth, but no answer. IF the elects sins were forgiven, just because God decreed they would be forgiven prior to His son's death, then why send Christ to die? WHy find Mary, why would the Almighty Sovereign God lower Himself and take the form of the created man? The cross is not an after thought with no implications. The cross ratified His decree, The cross was His testament, His fulfillment of His promise. You say they were with God, yet as I pointed out in John 3:13, Christ Himself says NO MAN has, has angela, no man has ascended except Him. Paul says Christ IS the first to rise from the dead.

Joe ... How can your sins be forgiven before you believe? Same answer for the OT saints ... If I am comprehending this concept. God doesn't need to wait for us to believe in order to apply Christ's precious blood ... nor does God wait for an event in "time" to see the OT saints as righteous ... again you are thinking linearly and not even trying to see outside the box. For us this doesn't become real until some point in our lives when we have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. But that isn't the issue and you keep forcing it to be the issue for those that had been granted faith before the cross.

I am not a real brainy person and this subject was something I struggled through for sometime. Brandan and I discussed it a year ago and I don't think I understood it (probably still don't) haha until recently.

We are considering this from God's perspective not ours and you keep focusing on "our perspective". If I have misunderstood you then please clarify for me this idea that the OT saints faith wasn't real until the cross.

Thanks in advance .... Jan

[Whammer]

How were their sins forgiven without the shedding of Blood. This could nto be accomplished by their sacrifices. This had to be accomplished with a substitutionary sacrifice in Christ. Now, I asked , "How could Christ have shed His blood prior to His incarnation? IF the elects sins were forgiven, just because God decreed they would be forgiven prior to His son's death, then why send Christ to die? WHy find Mary, why would the Almighty Sovereign God lower Himself and take the form of the created man? The cross is not an after thought with no implications. The cross ratified His decree, The cross was His testament, His fulfillment of His promise.

God knows all, God sees all, God knew I would get married may 1 1993 or 1994 which is it I forgot. Anyway, He most certainly planned every day of my life, but I was not married until may 1 199?

I once had a pastor, who knew I loved football, and said this to me....."Bryan, in a game between my favorite team, the Minnesota Vikings and the SF 49rs, we see Joe Montana throw a touch down pass to Jerry Rice, the 49rs fans go wild.......then we get a shot at the instant replay, you as a 49rs fan are waiting to rejoice again and....wait...the replay shows Jerry Rice dropping the pass.....and no touch down?" ..I was startled at this absurdity....and what I am saying should be as obvious as my 1st post......I selected the portion of your last post that I did because there is no disagreement from anyone who has posted on this thread as the nature of those things........I think that you are doing exactly what Mrs Gill said here......and you are not giving a proper place to "THE DECREES" of God.........we are living out the replay at this very moment of a very well laid plan! A PLAN that is THE REAL THING!

[lionovjudah]

Joe ... thanks for the compliment. I fear after this thread is finished you won't think I am so nice . Why does it matter whether a person looks backwards or forwards to the cross in order for it to be effectual? The instrument is faith is it not?

It matters because Scripture states it does. We look back to the cross, they looked forward.

Joe ... How can your sins be forgiven before you believe? Same answer for the OT saints ... If I am comprehending this concept. God doesn't need to wait for us to believe in order to apply Christ's precious blood ... nor does God wait for an event in "time" to see the OT saints as righteous ... again you are thinking linearly and not even trying to see outside the box. For us this doesn't become real until some point in our lives when we have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. But that isn't the issue and you keep forcing it to be the issue for those that had been granted faith before the cross.

The only even He waited for was the death of Christ. Not waiting as wondering when Christ will die. He decreed that in 30ad, all the sins of His elect will be forgiven. The OT saints trusted Gods faithful promise of "The one who comes" and died without receiving that promise, but were united with Christ at the throne after His death and resurrection. I never have .

We are considering this from God's perspective not ours and you keep focusing on "our perspective". If I have misunderstood you then please clarify for me this idea that the OT saints faith wasn't real until the cross.

Thanks in advance .... Jan

Gods perspective was always the historical redemption of His children. Their faith WAS real. Their trust was real. God graciously revealed to them that their promised messiah would come and die for them. And for this they would be saved.

[Brandan Kraft]

The only even He waited for was the death of Christ.

God does not wait!

[Whammer]

God does not wait!

AMEN!