The Timing of Justification and Imputation

[beloved57]

Andrew....You are making a fatal error here. By saying the elect were not Justified prior to regeneration, you have sided with the Roman Catholic Church (ala..Augustine.) not good! What you are proposing here is the Catholic teaching of (GRATIA INFUSA)., infused grace. You can skirt around this all you want. Impute can never be re-defined as infused. I would like you to answer a few questions for me. (1) Was Christ's Sacrifice at the cross a potential Justification? or was it an actual Justification, a real transfer of our sin debt to him, and His righteousness accounted to us, before we ever existed? (2) Is regenerative grace & faith a WORK that we cooperate with and the basis (ground) of our Justification? (3) Is Regeneration and faith toward Christ, the formal cause of our Justification? Or is regeneration and faith the FRUIT AND CONSEQUENCE of our Justification. Your clever sophistry will get you nowhere with me. I was educated in the Satanic schools of Rome, many many years ago. So do not attempt to equivocate with me.

You contradict yourself. You say that we are Justified IN Christ before the foudation of the world, and we are not Justified prior to regeneration and faith.......Nicholas

Good observation saint joe, the gentleman does contradict himself...

(edited by Darth Gill to fix formatting)

[Saint Nicholas]

Dear Ray and Nic,

My post was a warning about were some might go if not held to the scrutiny of the written word. I did not direct anything against what I have read by either of you. I am interested Ray, why did you take it that way?

Now, concerning Ray's comment about Vos and the need to quote him. I must first say that I am often away from my library and cannot fetch quotes from book not on the Internet, second the whole of his 144 pg book is applicable and helpful in the questions raised here about individual eschatology and the difference between the OT and NT saint. I will not quote the whole thing but here is a snippet:



Just prior to this statement Vos quoted over 30 verses in the OT that have an opposite trajectory for the believer after death than what is now thought to be the case (upwards to the throne)! I mentioned in my post that the Vos book was helpful for any one serious about the subject - and I stand by this. I am not mounting arguments here, but merely trying to direct with reminders towards biblical accuracy.


speculation is to say God is... and then fill in the blank with an idea without scriptural support.


Of course! predestine purpose and reality of enmity are two different things. Some here suggest that prior to conversion you are only unaware of your salvation - the Spirit merely makes you aware. Ray, do you take this stand? I am quite sure that no leader in the PRC would endorse this view - what would you say to them??

St. Nic,
I did not intend to lead to an infused righteous stand. My point is that scripture (not the RCC) clearly teaches that regeneration brings us from death to life! Not from life to an acknowledgment of life. If the Spirit does not quicken us then we are dead in our trespasses and sins. This is not Infusion - but regeneration. I did not contradict myself when I then stated another biblical truth that we where saved IN Christ before the foundation of the world. Both statements are what the New Testament teaches without apology. Sorry if I worded it strangely, but I am not trying to trick anyone with sophistry.

ATA

Andrew....I posed three simple questions for you to answer. You have not answered them at all. Please do so kindly. I understand that Regeneration brings us from spiritual death to life, this is not the issue. You are trying to dodge the questions that I put forth. I also understand that we were saved in Christ before the foundation of the world. This also is not the issue. Please answer the questions I put forth. We are discussing Justification not regeneration!

Nicholas

[Robert R. Higby]

Vos quoted over 30 verses in the OT that have an opposite trajectory for the believer after death than what is now thought to be the case (upwards to the throne)!

These are those that state that all men (righteous & wicked) go to Sheol (the realm and rule of the state of death) at death, which hardly exhausts the truth of what happened to OT saints. The fact of progressive revelation and an increase in man's understanding of the divine reality over time does not negate God's reality transcendent of that earlier limited understanding. Christ did not go to a different place at his ascension than he had been before his incarnation--and I can see nothing in the Bible that would lead us to believe the deceased OT saints went anywhere else than to be with him after they died.

Eph. 4:8 is clear on the meaning of "led captivity captive"; it refers to the 'sealing up' of death and hades accomplished by Christ when he descended before he ascended on high (after his resurrection). He went and preached doom and eternal judgment to the spirits in prison. His atonement not only constituted the saints justified; it sealed up the judgment of the reprobate! Christ also defeated death in his own resurrection to eternal life--but we have no evidence that others have yet been resurrected with him--in the sense of the final resurrection body made like unto his--that awaits the eschaton.

I'm a little concerned that we do not forget the scriptural teaching that justification has a public, individual dimension. That dimension of justification starts when we are regenerated unto faith and continues to eternity beyond that point. This is not to say that justification begins at regeneration--far from it! It is to say that the public and declared dimension of it--with respect to a particular individual's eternal life--is hidden and concealed in God's purposes until then.

[lionovjudah]

Vos quoted over 30 verses in the OT that have an opposite trajectory for the believer after death than what is now thought to be the case (upwards to the throne)!

These are those that state that all men (righteous & wicked) go to Sheol (the realm and rule of the state of death) at death, which hardly exhausts the truth of what happened to OT saints. The fact of progressive revelation and an increase in man's understanding of the divine reality over time does not negate God's reality transcendent of that earlier limited understanding. Christ did not go to a different place at his ascension than he had been before his incarnation--and I can see nothing in the Bible that would lead us to believe the deceased OT saints went anywhere else than to be with him after they died.

Robert, may I post a few scriptures. Progressive revelation also has an acorn every time, it does not start out as a full blown tree. Progressive revelation created exnihlo is to be scrutinized with veracity.


Psalm 9:17; 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

The Word hell is also translated shoel


31;17; 17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.



Genesis 37:35 35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.


Job 14:13
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Psalm 6:5

5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

88:3
4 I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:
5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
6 Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.



TO me these scriptures speak of both the wicked and saints went to the sam eplace.



I myself have ever mentioned Christ. I have stated He is the first to ascend. I also believe Ray inadequitly explained John 3:13 and Acts 2.34.

for David did not go up to the heavens, and he saith himself: The Lord saith to my lord, Sit thou at my right hand,

and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.


Now the reson for me to connect this issue with justification is becasue their justification was not not ratified until His death. Hence they rested in Shoel


JPK

[lionovjudah]

Okay Joe.

Then in dealing with the account of Elijah, how did you determine which definition of heaven to use??

By

1)the context.

2) comparing it to other Scriptures where the same word and thought is used.

3) John 3:13

4)Acts 2:34

5) Paul stating the Christ was the first.

Luke 16 parable

I would also like to state that in 1 Cor 15. Paul said "17and if Christ has not been raised your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. 20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

Paul says without His resurrection we are still in our sins. Then those who have fallen asleep IN CHRIST (OT saints) or anyone prior to this event, are not in heaven becasue Christ had not ascended yet. These people are in fact in Christ, but where is Christ? not i n heaven yet

[jmgipson]

Question:

If the imputation of righteousness requires our actual existence, the imputation of sin does also. This is why imputation can be without our existence. That sin was imputed to us before we had an actual being, is evident, for sin was imputed to us when we were made sinners, which we were immediately by the fall of Adam as we see in Romans 5:19. That is, all the posterity of Adam were by God reputed sinners, because they sinned in him as their public head.



So, since sin inherent suposes that sin is imputed, so also inherent righteousness presupposes righteousness is imputed. (T. Goodman)

John

[lionovjudah]

Question:

If the imputation of righteousness requires our actual existence, the imputation of sin does also. This is why imputation can be without our existence. That sin was imputed to us before we had an actual being, is evident, for sin was imputed to us when we were made sinners, which we were immediately by the fall of Adam as we see in Romans 5:19. That is, all the posterity of Adam were by God reputed sinners, because they sinned in him as their public head.



So, since sin inherent suposes that sin is imputed, so also inherent righteousness presupposes righteousness is imputed. (T. Goodman)

John

NOt so fast there John!! The question should be when was our sin/sins imputed to Christ? That was at the cross.

And the goodman quote is a riddle!!!!

JPK

[jmgipson]

NOt so fast there John!! The question should be when was our sin/sins imputed to Christ? That was at the cross.

And the goodman quote is a riddle!!!!

JPK

Then you must answer of whom it is in Romans 4:8

8 Blessed <3107> is the man <435> to whom <3739> the Lord <2962> will <3049> <0> not <3364> impute <3049> (5667) sin <266>.

3364 ouv me

ou me {oo may}

Meaning:

1) never, certainly not, not at all, by no means

Origin:

from 3756 and 3361;; particle

Usage:

AV - not 56, in no wise 6, no 6, never + 1519 + 165 + 3588 6, no more at all + 2089 5, not tr 1, misc 14; 94

Geneva Bible Notes:

None for this verse.

You must follow the same idea that our sins where imputed to Christ and His righteousness imputed to us before the foundation of the world.

John

[harald]

John,

Since you maintain "imputation of Christ's righteousness" before the foundation of the world, do you have any Scripture verse or passage which plainly teaches this?

Harald

[Brandan Kraft]

John,

Since you maintain "imputation of Christ's righteousness" before the foundation of the world, do you have any Scripture verse or passage which plainly teaches this?

Harald

Harald, you're being suspended for a week because it appears to me you're not interested in sincere research and study. There has been plenty evidence given in this thread, you just have simply refused to read it.

[Robert R. Higby]

Well, I am getting weary of all these irrational arguments as I'm sure many others are also.

Joe"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

The Word hell is also translated shoel

Fine, I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND that you believe the elect were put into hell (or hell-fire, even) prior to the atonement--it has been made abundantly clear through your posts of the last week or two! I thank God hourly that I have been delivered from such an obviously absurd interpretation of scripture! The use of Sheol in this instance simply means that the plans and aspirations of the wicked come to nothing--they are going to die and face what is beyond the curtain in the realm of death!

Harald, please exegete Rom. 8:29-30 and do not use the argument that tense determines meaning!

[Brandan Kraft]

Also, Joe, the next time you attack Ray or anyone else for that matter, you will be suspended for two weeks. This is just a friendly reminder.

[Brandan Kraft]

I'm thinking of closing this thread. What does everyone else think? Is there anything else that needs to be said?

[jmgipson]

I think we have gone in a circle , but saying that I must admit it has reinforced my belief in justification and imputation in eternity.

John

[Brandan Kraft]

OK, I'm closing this thread. If anyone wants to discuss how their views have changed or been reinforced, use this thread: http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=3094

Do not use that thread as a means of debating doctrine. It's simply meant to be used as reflection.

Thank yous go out to all participants. I am glad that my understanding has been reinforced. I really do have a better understanding and can articulate my position much better.

This is the second largest thread in the history of this website! It was a good one folks! Now let's move onto something else.