The Timing of Justification and Imputation

[ray kikkert]

So are you saying then that Job, David, Abraham were not justified until the cross? So when David said in Romans 4:6-7 ..blessed is the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness... God couldn't actually impute this righteousness yet because Christ had not shed blood? You speak riddles to me harold. It does say Job was upright or righteous and just before Almighty God. All these men were justified in God's eyes because of the surety of His precious Son and what He would accomplish. All these men knew it and David knew how blessed he was that God had imputed righteousness to him.

Eph. 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

yes.... the LAMB SLAIN FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD, the foundation, hope and promise for all the saints like Job, David et al. The words of Job and David are a great comfort to the saints Harold.

[harald]

Joe,

I did a KJV based search of the Greek and found only three instances in the NT which are genuine cases of "faith in Christ", Christ-ward faith. What I mean where the Greek has PISTIS in the same clause with EIS and CHRISTOS. They are those here below. Then there are other cases of "faith in Christ". But they differ in that the preposition is EN. In the latter case the penmen do not talk about Christ-ward faith or trust, but about faith which is in Christ as the sphere. PISTIS plus EN plus CHRISTOS is not the same as Christ-ward faith/trust. PISTIS plus EIS plus CHRISTOS means Christ-ward faith/trust. And I found, as stated, only 3 instances of Christ-ward faith. In context none deal with JBG. The penmen did not confuse the two prepositions EIS and EN. EIS means "into" or "toward" basically. EN basically means "in" in the sense of "inside", "within", "in the sphere of".

Acts 24:24, 20:21 (KJV has "toward"), Col. 2:5

My opinion of these three scriptures which all contain PISTIS, EIS, CHRISTOS, is that all no doubt set forth Christ-ward faith.

As for "faith in God" I did a quick search and found no verse with PISTIS plus EIS plus THEOS, which would mean God-ward faith. The closest I found is Heb. 6:1 which has PISTIS plus EPI plus THEOS, lit. "faith upon God". This can be understood of as God-ward faith. Then there is Mark 11, reading "PISTIN THEOU", lit. "faith of God". As LITV rightly renders. Jesus was not, in context, commanding God-ward faith. He literally says "be ye having faith of God!" . The imperative verb is in the present tense, not aorist, thus He commanded them to continuously have such faith. In context "faith of God" can only mean that kind of supernatural faith which was associated with miracles. Look at the context and this should be verified to you.

So, as you see it is not true to say Christ-ward and God-ward faith are found myriads of times.

As for Romans 3 you confuse the verses. KJV says "of" in v. 22 and "in" in v. 26. But Paul penned a genitive in each case, "faith of Jesus Christ" and "faith of Jesus" respectively. So, Jesus Christ-ward and Jesus-ward faith, respectively, was not what he talked about. This would have presupposed EIS with Jesus in the accusative case. In v. 26 KJV translators no doubt rendered according to theological bias. Some prior English versions rightly rendered "faith OF Jesus". So what Paul was talking about was Jesus' faith, not Jesus-ward faith, nor yet faith FROM Jesus, which would have presupposed APO or PARA or EK. At the end of Eph. 6 Paul wrote "faith from ...Jesus Christ", using APO. The grammatical construct of both v. 22 and 26 testifies to the fact that Paul was talking about none other thing but Jesus' own faith, that glorious faith He was possessed of as a man. In v. 26 Paul is emphatic about it by simply writing "Jesus", thus driving home the point that he was in the business of emphasizing Him as Jesus of Nazareth in His pre-ascension capacity. "Faith of Jesus" means that faith He had as Jesus of Nazareth, i.e. prior to the resurrection and ascension. This is so simple a thing, but theologians and "doctors" and religionists have complicated things, being darkened in their reasonings, thus they have turned Paul's glorious gospel into another.

Harald

[harald]

So are you saying then that Job, David, Abraham were not justified until the cross? So when David said in Romans 4:6-7 ..blessed is the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness... God couldn't actually impute this righteousness yet because Christ had not shed blood? You speak riddles to me harold. It does say Job was upright or righteous and just before Almighty God. All these men were justified in God's eyes because of the surety of His precious Son and what He would accomplish. All these men knew it and David knew how blessed he was that God had imputed righteousness to him.
(John Gipson)

Yes, I am saying that Job, David, Abraham et.al. were not justified before God until the stake.

John, could you explain how God imputed righteousness to Job? What righteousness did He impute to him? It could not be Christ's justifying righteousness, because when Job lived Christ had not yet incarnated, nor yet had He gone to Calvary. How could God impute something that did not yet actually exist? If you say He nonetheless did impute then you will have to show to me that God is a God who engages in imputing things which have no existence. Every time Paul wrote the verb logizomai he spoke of something that existed. Imputation, in Paul's thought, is based on reality. That which existed was imputed. Not some non-existing thing.

If you say justifying righteousness was imputed to David in eternity you will have to prove that also sin had been charged to his account, logically prior to the justification. But you cannot find any scripture which says there was a law before the foundation of the world in light of which sin was legally charged to the account before the world was.

Harald

[harald]

Harald makes God subject to eternal law philosophy. (Brandan)

I know nothing of this said philosophy. I could not even articulate a sentence. It is rather you who are engaging in philosophy, not submitting to Paul's sound words and teaching as respects justification before God.



yes.... the LAMB SLAIN FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD, the foundation, hope and promise for all the saints like Job, David et al.
(Ray)


You are making things up, Ray. There is no such thing as "Lamb slain from BEFORE the foundations of the world". Revelation contains a similar wording, but with the difference that it says "from (APO) the foundation of the world" (KJV), not "from BEFORE", which would presuppose PRO. So, this Revelation verse cannot be used to support "justification in eternity". All this wresting you folks come up with when you refuse to submit to the God-breathed and inviolable words of the living God, instead willfully presuming to correct God's words and teachings through bringing your own fanciful philosophies and reasonings and figments and traditions of vain men.


Harald

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

There is no such thing as "Lamb slain from BEFORE the foundations of the world". Revelation contains a similar wording, but with the difference that it says "from (APO) the foundation of the world" (KJV), not "from BEFORE", which would presuppose PRO. So, this Revelation verse cannot be used to support "justification in eternity". All this wresting you folks come up with when you refuse to submit to the God-breathed and inviolable words of the living God, instead willfully presuming to correct God's words and teachings through bringing your own fanciful philosophies and reasonings and figments and traditions of vain men.


Harald

So, at what point did the chosen becomes God's elect?

[harald]

So, at what point did the chosen becomes God's elect? (Scott)

Scott, are you kidding me? I looked at your profile and you are a Supralapsarian Calvinist. So why do you ask a question like this?

But since you ask. God's chosen ones were chosen/elected by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, "in Christ" as the sphere of this election. This is, to be specific, stated concerning "the body of the Christ", by Paul in Ephesians chapter 1. But I believe also the other two households were (with ref. to time) chosen before the foundation of the world, although no NT scripture explicitly states this. Logically speaking the body of the Christ was chosen before Israel, and before the righteous nations. The body was chosen first, and revealed last in redemptive history. It will also first of all households enter into its hope, corroborated by the Greek of 1Cor. 15:23.

Harald

[Brandan Kraft]

God's chosen ones were chosen/elected by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, "in Christ" as the sphere of this election.

Harald, I highlighted your words "in Christ." If God's elect were "IN CHRIST" before the foundation of the world, and Christ is Righteous, how could the elect not be righteous IN HIM? How can anyone be IN CHRIST, and yet be unrighteous?

[lionovjudah]

Harald, I highlighted your words "in Christ." If God's elect were "IN CHRIST" before the foundation of the world, and Christ is Righteous, how could the elect not be righteous IN HIM? How can anyone be IN CHRIST, and yet be unrighteous?

1) Does in Christ mean Justified?

2) Does chosen=justified

3) does union =justified


These are questions that must be answered. Are these words synonomous?

Harald: one does not have to seperate Christs sheep as you do. The writ clearly and easily calls all of the sheep chosen. OT saints are as equally chosen as NT saints. This just complicates matters with a seperation that is not needed nor is it scripturally accurate.


Has anyone given a clear definition of what is meant by justification? Can we at least decide and concur together how we are defining this word? I know it is very pregnant, with distinctions.

pardon?
remission of sins?
adoption?
declared righteouss?
aquited?
eternal life?

[Brandan Kraft]

When I use justification from eternity, I mean that God counts the elect as Righteous in Christ. It is entirely outside of the experience of God's people.

[jmgipson]

Definition of Justification as I understand it:

Justification is a legal, or forensic, term, and is used in Scripture to denote the acceptance (and anything pertaining to it) of any one as righteous in the sight of God.

Eph 1:4-6
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. KJV

He chose us in eternity, He made us holy and without blame before Him (the righteousness of Christ), and we are now accepted by the Father in the beloved, all in eternity. All things will be complete in time at the judgement seat.

John

John

[lionovjudah]

1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered 3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

This is from the greek word dikaioo.




1) righteous, observing divine laws
a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
a) only Christ truly
4) approved of or acceptable of God b) in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them

dikaios for above.


Can we agree on this? I mean this is the literal translation of the word in the greek.



hebrew : tsadaq

1) to be just, be righteous
a) (Qal)
1) to have a just cause, be in the right
2) to be justified
3) to be just (of God)
4) to be just, be righteous (in conduct and character)
b) (Niphal) to be put or made right, be justified
c) (Piel) justify, make to appear righteous, make someone righteous
d) (Hiphil)
1) to do or bring justice (in administering law)
2) to declare righteous, justify
3) to justify, vindicate the cause of, save

4) to make righteous, turn to righteousness e) (Hithpael) to justify oneself

In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

[melted]

1) There is justification to an audience of the human subjective mind.
2) There is justification to an audience of God's subjective mind.

#1 is for the benefit of the human and is fully subjective to the human mind. Human subjectivity does not determine objective truth. There is objective truth outside of human subjectivity.

#2 is commonly termed "objective justification" - it is subjective to God's mind. Truth subjective to God is the very definition of objective truth. Something is true only because God knows it to be true.

I think that most of us can agree that justification to the audience of the human mind is by faith. Faith delivers the subjective message of objective truth.

The discussion now is over when the audience of God's mind subjectively (and therefore objectively) sees His elect as righteous. To propose that God "learns" of a truth in time is absurd. God's omniscience is self-sufficient. He knows things to be true because it is His will that they be true. His knowledge is removed from time in every way - it is eternal. To propose that the audience of God's mind sees the elect as righteous only at the act of Christ's death in time is to subject God to His own creation - time.

The Lord Jesus Christ and His work were "foreknown before the foundation of the world" (1 Pet. 1:20). It is obvious that God is the one foreknowing this redemption and accounting His elect blameless in eternity, apart from the trappings of time. To deny "justification in eternity" is to deny that the elect are justified AT ALL in the eternal mind of God. God is the eternal "I AM". If it is true in His mind, then it has always been true; and further, is true only because it is true in His mind.

I do not believe that one must (or even CAN) divorce justification from the cross in order to believe in justification in eternity.

[Brandan Kraft]

Well that was the best post in this entire thread Kyle! Thank you.

[jmgipson]

WOW!!! With all this so far if I didn't believe in Eternal Justification, I would now!!!! Good definition Kyle.

JOHN

[ray kikkert]

yes.... the LAMB SLAIN FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD, the foundation, hope and promise for all the saints like Job, David et al.
(Ray)


You are making things up, Ray. There is no such thing as "Lamb slain from BEFORE the foundations of the world". Revelation contains a similar wording, but with the difference that it says "from (APO) the foundation of the world" (KJV), not "from BEFORE", which would presuppose PRO. So, this Revelation verse cannot be used to support "justification in eternity". All this wresting you folks come up with when you refuse to submit to the God-breathed and inviolable words of the living God, instead willfully presuming to correct God's words and teachings through bringing your own fanciful philosophies and reasonings and figments and traditions of vain men.


Harald

I see, now I am making things up. Ironic you could not , nor dealt with the exegesis as to just what "foundation" of something means. "PRO" is presupposed here. Your "blinder theology" exposed as bankrupt.

The whole counsel of God testifies to the elect's "Justification from or in eternity" from God's eternal counsel, whom the Lord seen fit to accomplish in His Son , our Saviour Jesus Christ.

But it is enough. I think you know your exegesis is unreliable. He is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.

1. Isaiah 28:16
   Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
   Isaiah 28:15-17 (in Context) Isaiah 28 (Whole Chapter)
2. Matthew 25:34
   Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
   Matthew 25:33-35 (in Context) Matthew 25 (Whole Chapter)
3. John 17:24
   Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
   John 17:23-25 (in Context) John 17 (Whole Chapter)
4. Hebrews 9:26
   For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
   Hebrews 9:25-27 (in Context) Hebrews 9 (Whole Chapter)
5. 1 Peter 1:20
   Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
   1 Peter 1:19-21 (in Context) 1 Peter 1 (Whole Chapter)

........ now with regards to the "haroldneutics" of Revelation chapter 13:8, here is Gill's expostion, one who by the way took the whole counsel of God in his commentary:

Revelation 13:8

Ver. 8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,.... The inhabitants of the Roman empire, the idolatrous part of it, the men of the world, earthly minded men; who are as they came into the world, and are of the earth, earthly, and seek only after earthly honours, pleasures, and profits; these are the admirers and adorers of the beast:

whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; by which book is meant God's predestination of men to eternal life, or his decree of election; why this is called the "book of life", See Gill on "Re 3:5"; and their "names [being] written [therein] from the foundation of the world",
Re 17:8, for such a construction the words will bear, denotes that election is eternal, and is not an act of time, nor dependent upon anything done in time; and that it is of particular persons, and not of bodies of men, of nations and churches, and still less of propositions, or of persons so and so qualified, or under such conditions and circumstances; and that it is perfectly well known to God, and is sure and certain in its effects, and is unchangeable and irrevocable; for what is written in it, is written, and will always stand, not upon the foot of works, but of the sovereign grace of God; and this is called the Lamb's book; that is, Christ, who is compared to a Lamb for its harmlessness, meekness, and patience, and was typified by the lambs in the legal sacrifices; and this book is called his, because he was present at the making of it, and was concerned in putting down the names in it, Joh 13:18, and he himself stands first in it as the elect of God, and the head of all the elect, who, as members, were chosen in him: the act of election was made in him, and stands sure in him; and he is the author and giver of that life, which men are chosen unto both here and hereafter: and he may be said to be "slain from the foundation of the world"; in the decree and purpose of God, by which he was set forth, or foreappointed to be the propitiation for sin, and was foreordained, before the foundation of the world, to redeem his people by his blood, and in the promise of God immediately after the fall of man, that the seed of the woman should have his heel bruised, and he himself should bruise the serpent's head, which made it as sure as if it was then done; and in the sacrifices, which were immediately upon this offered up, and were types of the death and sacrifice of Christ; and in the faith of the saints, which brings distant things near, and considers them as if present; and also in his members, in Abel, and others, in whom he suffered, as he still does in his people; to which may be added, that such is the efficacy of the bloodshed and death of Christ, that it reached to all the saints from the beginning of the world, for the justification of their persons, the atonement of their sins, and cleansing from them; for the remission of sins, that are past, and for the redemption of transgressions under the first testament; for Old Testament saints from the beginning are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, as New Testament ones are. Something like this the Jews say {e} of the Messiah upon Ge 49:11,

"he washed amle yrbtad amwym, "from the day that the world was created"; who is he? this is the King Messiah.--It is written Ge 1:2; "and the Spirit of God", &c. This is the Spirit of the King Messiah; and from the day that the world was created; he washed his garments in wine;''

which the Jewish writers {f} understand of blood, which for its redness is like to wine; though they interpret it of the blood of the slain, with which the garments of the Messiah will be stained. Now such whose names are not written in this book of the Lamb, who have no interest in electing grace, nor in redemption by Christ, the slain Lamb of God, nor any right unto eternal life, who are reprobate persons, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, who are foreordained to condemnation, and are given up to believe a lie, that they might be damned, these are the followers and worshippers of antichrist.

{e} Zohar in Gen. fol. 128. 2, 3. {f} Targum Jon. & Jerus. & Aben Ezra in Gen. xlix. 11.


....... so Harold, please put off your "blinder theology"

[ray kikkert]

Well that was the best post in this entire thread Kyle! Thank you.

Indeed, well said Kyle. Thank you.

[jmgipson]

Matthew 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 14:2
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
KJV

Ray,
I completely forgot about Matt. 25:34. What is interesting is most pretrib. men think John 14:2 means Jesus was going to go up with a hammer and saw and prepare a place for them. What this is speaking of is in context Jesus going to the cross. This fits in with Kyles definition - we see in God the Fathers mind (speaking as a man) that Kingdom was prepared for us (Christs death and righteousness) in eternity (Objective). And in John 14:2 Jesus is preparing this place in time (Subjective). I think I explained this OK. If not I hope you got my jest.

John

[ray kikkert]

I think I explained this OK. If not I hope you got my jest.

John

I did.

In fact the last time this was discussed , Bob Higby also had a very understandable definition of justification from/in eternity. I cannot find it at present because I forget what thread it was under. Maybe it will come up underneath this thread here.

It usually lists threads that are in common with the present thread discussion.

[lionovjudah]

The timing of justification is a tremendous subject. When were the elect declared righteouss.

I have read the EJ side, and there are some aspects of justification that I believe are true.

But one scripture still has me convinced it happenned at the cross

Romans 5;10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

One cannot be justified and still need reconciliation. It is an impossibility. And according to Paul, this reconciliation happenned at the cross.

I will add more later. My son is going for his brown belt in karate tonight!!!!!

One more thing. Paul also states we were enemies, we are new creatures, and this happenned at the death of Christ.

The major problem I have with some peoples explinations of EJ, is that if we are justified before being born, how are we born sinners at enmity with God? How are we guilty? Now I know the elect, even from a supra view, are not born in grace.

I think of it like this. If I called my bank and asked them for the title of my car, they would tell me not until the laon/dent is paid. Which happenned at the cross..


Ciao for now

JK

[Mickey]

One more thing. Paul also states we were enemies, we are new creatures, and this happenned at the death of Christ.

We are not new creatures at the cross, we are new creatures after conversion. Our being born from above pertains to our experience of salvation. We are born dead in sin and then born from above.

The major problem I have with some peoples explinations of EJ, is that if we are justified before being born, how are we born sinners at enmity with God? How are we guilty? Now I know the elect, even from a supra view, are not born in grace.

We are guilty because we sin and we were at enmity with God before conversion not the other way around. In other words, we hated God before our conversion and were indeed guilty, BUT, God still loved us and saw us as justified in Christ. The term Justification--as has been explained over and over in this thread--is a legal or forensic term given to the elect declaring them 'not guilty' even though we have indeed committed the crime. This declaration still applies to the elect before conversion but we don't 'experience' or 'know' of this justification until we are converted and God reveals this to us through faith. Hence our view of Justification by faith: God shows us that we have always been justified in His eyes because of the imputed righteousness of Christ.