The Timing of Justification and Imputation

[Brandan Kraft]

John, if Harald's accusation is true, please cite your source and continue to do so in the future. Plagiarism is not acceptable on this website. If Harald's accusation is not true, then please ignore this message! Harald, if you're not correct in your accusation, you will owe John an apology.

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We require that all participants honestly represent themselves by answering all required fields in the user profile form. From time to time, we make changes to these fields as we like to know where all participants stand concerning subject matter that we believe is of utmost importance.

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I have to go as I have a meeting to attend!

[jmgipson]

John Gipson,

I take it post #62, your post, is basically a quote from someone else. Unless I mistake from a website by the name "Let God be true", which has an article with the identical wordings as your post above. Perhaps you should give credit where it is due.

Harald

It may be, I don't now. The documents I have has no author. It is the same one on 5solas.org Post #7 Jesus Saves? I will always put down where I got the doc. if I have it.

[jmgipson]

I probably should have put author unknow under it. I stand rebuked.

Sorry Predestinarian network!!!

John

[Brandan Kraft]

No problem John. Take care!

[lionovjudah]

I found this troubling. I never knew the WC speaks of justification at regeneration, or at the point of faith. IS this what they mean about the Holy Spirit applying Christ to them? wow

Like I mentioned before, this says that God is still charging the elects debt, after it has been paid, until they are regenerated. This totaaly mocks the work of Christ in my estimation.

Perhaps I am reading this wrong.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter 9
IV. God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect,[11] and Christ did, in the fullness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification:[12] nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.[13]

[Mickey]

Like I mentioned before, this says that God is still charging the elects debt, after it has been paid, until they are regenerated. This totaaly mocks the work of Christ in my estimation.

Indeed Joe...but think of the OT saints...did God charge their debt until the resurection of Christ?

[jmgipson]

And this reconciliation happenned at teh cross. This "in Christ"cannot mean chosen in Christ means justified can it? If this was the case we would be a new creature before being born

Joe,
I am reading George Ella's book on John Gill and in the chapter "spanning Eternity" he writes something that really hits home with me:

"Gill's veiw of Scripture teaching is that the grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love wherer a souls is not justified. these aspects belong together as intergal parts."

John

[jmgipson]

Forgot this:

Goat Yard Confession of faith article 3:

III. We believe that, before the world began, God did elect a certain number of men unto everlasting salvation, whom he did predestinate to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ, of his own free grace, and according to the good pleasure of his will: and that, in pursuance of this gracious design, he did contrive and make a covenant of grace and peace with his Son Jesus Christ, on the behalf of those persons, wherein a Saviour was appointed, and all spiritual blessings provided for them; as also that their persons, with all their grace and glory, were put into the hands of Christ, and made his care and charge.

John

[lionovjudah]

Indeed Joe...but think of the OT saints...did God charge their debt until the resurection of Christ?

No Mike. Because Scripture says they looked forward to the Sacrafice of Christ. And His death was efficacious to them because of the promise. The OT saints were trusting in the promised work to be accomplished by the messiah.

Plus as I mentioned earlier in my understanding of eternal justification is it is not linear at all. Chtrists Atonement is the hub of all Atonement. This timelessness is shown in many verses.

to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." Revelation 13:8

Look at what moses and elijah have to say here:

And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem." Luke 9:30, 31

"But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor....he [a child] is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."
(Gal 3:25; 4:3-5)


These scriptures show the death of Christ is the beginning, center, and end of all redemptive history. And again, "Without the shedding of Blood, there is NO remission." So the eternal element of His death is accomplished at the cross.

[harald]

John Gipson,

I believe you. Here is the URL to the article I had in mind. I believe it is composed by one Jonathan Crosby, who seems to be the main man behind the website. I post the URL for the reason that I brought this up, but I do not endorse the site or the author due to some unscriptural things he holds (e.g. water baptism, KJV onlyism, and I also believe he holds Conditional Time Salvation). I do acknowledge he teaches some things aright.

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/sa...-you-saved.htm


Harald

[harald]

Joe,

I do not believe you are reading the WC wrongly. I have known all along that WC is a solafideite confession, and that the penners were solafideites (JBG at point of Christ-ward faith). They believed precisely as Luther, and as a matter of fact I believe they basically got their notion from him. He is the main promoter of solafideism in the last centuries. I posted a load of quotes from his Galatians commentary in another thread some weeks ago which clearly show he was a zealot for the notion of JBG at the point of Christ-ward faith. Someone did not like it that I thus posted and said something to the import that I sound like a broken record, if I recall aright, but no one was able to come to Luther's defense. The evidence is there, and it is irrefutable. Luther, as far as I am aware, is the first Bible translator in modern times to have wrested "faith of Jesus Christ" into "faith IN Jesus Christ". It can be seen all over his German Bible where this formula occurs, and where the formula is "faith of Jesus" and "faith of Christ" in the correctly rendered versions. The first, as far as I know, to follow him in this new translation-novelty, this wresting, was Miles Coverdale. Tyndale greatly looked up to Luther I've understood, but in e.g. Rom. 3:22 I think Tyndale corectly renders "faith OF Jesus Christ". I have Tyndale's version so I can check if need be. It may be intersting to know that both the Syriac Peshitta (reportedly 2nd century) and the Vulgate render correctly, "faith of Jesus Christ", in Rom. 3:22. I recall also that Wycliffe has the correct rendereing, and he reportedly translated the Vulgate. Beza's Latin NT from the 1550's got it right in every instance. Geneva Bible got it right most of the time if not always. Castalio's Latin NT from the 1550's got it right in most places if I recall aright. The papist Douay Rheims version of the 1580's got it right. Bishops Bible got it right. The Spanish version of de Reina of 1569 got it right. Valera's revision of it of 1602 got it right. KJV got it right but not in 3:26b. Diodati's Italian version got it right in some places. The Dutch Statenvertaling of 1637 got it right every time I think.
The only Bible translator of those old times who I can think of who consistently wrested "faith of Jesus Christ" into "faith IN" (Germ. Glauben an) was Luther. As a matter of fact every time it occurs in Paul, viz. Rom. 3:22a, 26b, Gal. 2:16 (2x), Gal. 3:22, Phil. 3:9, also Eph. 3:12 ("faith of him"), Luther wrested it. Evidencing his unregeneracy. He never knew the Scriptural and Pauline truth concerning JBG, he was in darkness and ignorance of God's gospel. So it was also with the WC penners, and so it has been with countless would-be Christians after them, both Calvinists (including John Calvin himself) and Arminians.


Harald

[lionovjudah]

Harald:

Why dont you just have brandan put this repeated haranguing you do against Luther, and now Calvin somehere on this site engraved in stone. Give it a name, and just reference that name instead of you haveing to repeat it daily in some way or another. Would this not save you time and energy and anxiety? Call it "Harald's Broken Record" So when you feel the need to regurgitate the above post, you can just nicely say "Reference Harald's Broken Record"

Now dont get upset or rebuke me, I am just lightening up the mood!!!!!


Enjoy the Finlandia HArald!!!! Try it with a twist...

[jmgipson]

Harold,
I went to the website and now I know why it was not signed by the writer:

Why are your documents not signed?

First, we have no ambition for notoriety, popularity, or recognition by anyone on this earth. If we do all we are supposed to do in serving the Lord Jesus Christ, our attitude at the end will be, “We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do” (Luke 17:10). We hope we have John the Baptist’s attitude, “He must increase, but I must decrease” (John 3:30).

Second, we try to back up our assertions with the Scriptures, and the blessed God should need no endorsement or recommendation. If the Bible says it, then that settles it. The regenerate elect of God tremble before His word, and a precept of Scripture is more than sufficient for them (Is 66:2; Ps 119:128).

Third, what difference does it make? Only a person seeking an ad hominem argument would even ask the question. Who cares about who said or wrote something? If it is true on its own merit, believe it. If it is false on its own merit, reject it. Elihu was a young fool in comparison to the four old wise men in the book of Job, but only he had inspired understanding of the situation at hand (Job 32:1-14).

Fourth, remember the higher a person’s education or intelligence, the lower the probability for truth or wisdom from that person (Matt 11:25-27; I Cor 1:19-20; 2:14-16; 3:19-20). The scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, educated scholars all, were nothing compared to the Bereans (Acts 17:11). The apostles of Jesus Christ, ignorant fishermen that they were, annihilated the wisdom of the Jews and Greeks of their day. The Word of a God is a hammer and fire that can break in pieces all the dreams and thoughts of men (Jer 23:28-29).

Fifth, we want any believer to be able to use the material in any way they choose, as long as they maintain the same overall intent. Anyone is free to copy any document, plagiarize it, alter it, or make it better, without giving us any credit or linking to our website! Truth is the gift of God, and it is free to any who will buy it (Pr 23:23)! Give God the glory; you need not even thank us.

I still put names to writings if I know them.

[GraceAmbassador]

Harold,
I went to the website and now I know why it was not signed by the writer:

Why are your documents not signed?

First, we have no ambition for notoriety, popularity, or recognition by anyone on this earth. If we do all we are supposed to do in serving the Lord Jesus Christ, our attitude at the end will be, “We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do” (Luke 17:10). We hope we have John the Baptist’s attitude, “He must increase, but I must decrease” (John 3:30).

Second, we try to back up our assertions with the Scriptures, and the blessed God should need no endorsement or recommendation. If the Bible says it, then that settles it. The regenerate elect of God tremble before His word, and a precept of Scripture is more than sufficient for them (Is 66:2; Ps 119:128).

Third, what difference does it make? Only a person seeking an ad hominem argument would even ask the question. Who cares about who said or wrote something? If it is true on its own merit, believe it. If it is false on its own merit, reject it. Elihu was a young fool in comparison to the four old wise men in the book of Job, but only he had inspired understanding of the situation at hand (Job 32:1-14).

Fourth, remember the higher a person’s education or intelligence, the lower the probability for truth or wisdom from that person (Matt 11:25-27; I Cor 1:19-20; 2:14-16; 3:19-20). The scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, educated scholars all, were nothing compared to the Bereans (Acts 17:11). The apostles of Jesus Christ, ignorant fishermen that they were, annihilated the wisdom of the Jews and Greeks of their day. The Word of a God is a hammer and fire that can break in pieces all the dreams and thoughts of men (Jer 23:28-29).

Fifth, we want any believer to be able to use the material in any way they choose, as long as they maintain the same overall intent. Anyone is free to copy any document, plagiarize it, alter it, or make it better, without giving us any credit or linking to our website! Truth is the gift of God, and it is free to any who will buy it (Pr 23:23)! Give God the glory; you need not even thank us.

I still put names to writings if I know them.

Well, Brandan and all moderators:

It seems as if the guys who wrote the article have the same mindset that we have here at 5solas. As such, there is no condemnation for or problems about Jmgipson posting a nameless quote.

As for me this issue is over and explained to full satisfaction.

No problem at all!

Milt

[Saint Nicholas]

Nicholas, we have some Catholics that drop in every now and then. Your experience and knowledge of Catholicism will be a great contribution to this website! If you want you can start some threads targeting specific issues in the Catholic cult.

Thank you, Michael.
I want to make myself absolutely clear. I will never intend to abuse my privileges, in the use of this forum, by turning it into an Anti-Catholic forum. There are plenty of other websites for that cause. However, I would only use Catholic teachings when absolutely necessary, to show how Protestant, Evangelicals, and non-catholic churches, are going back home to Rome (MAMA) in ecumenical unity. But not only in outward unity, but also in theology.
Why do you think J.I. Packer apostatized himself, by signing ECT 1 and ECT 2. ?

Yours in Christ.......Nicholas

[Saint Nicholas]

1) There is justification to an audience of the human subjective mind.
2) There is justification to an audience of God's subjective mind.

#1 is for the benefit of the human and is fully subjective to the human mind. Human subjectivity does not determine objective truth. There is objective truth outside of human subjectivity.

#2 is commonly termed "objective justification" - it is subjective to God's mind. Truth subjective to God is the very definition of objective truth. Something is true only because God knows it to be true.

I think that most of us can agree that justification to the audience of the human mind is by faith. Faith delivers the subjective message of objective truth.

The discussion now is over when the audience of God's mind subjectively (and therefore objectively) sees His elect as righteous. To propose that God "learns" of a truth in time is absurd. God's omniscience is self-sufficient. He knows things to be true because it is His will that they be true. His knowledge is removed from time in every way - it is eternal. To propose that the audience of God's mind sees the elect as righteous only at the act of Christ's death in time is to subject God to His own creation - time.

The Lord Jesus Christ and His work were "foreknown before the foundation of the world" (1 Pet. 1:20). It is obvious that God is the one foreknowing this redemption and accounting His elect blameless in eternity, apart from the trappings of time. To deny "justification in eternity" is to deny that the elect are justified AT ALL in the eternal mind of God. God is the eternal "I AM". If it is true in His mind, then it has always been true; and further, is true only because it is true in His mind.

I do not believe that one must (or even CAN) divorce justification from the cross in order to believe in justification in eternity.

bravo !!

[Saint Nicholas]

St Nick: You lost me on this one. Perhaps some lingering affects of years of rc incense?

HA! HA!....not only incense, but I was a midnite TOKER back then. Thank Our Lord for the Amazing Grace, He had thus bestowed on me a miserable sinner.

What was your question pertaining to the post?

[lionovjudah]

HA! HA!....not only incense, but I was a midnite TOKER back then. Thank Our Lord for the Amazing Grace, He had thus bestowed on me a miserable sinner.

What was your question pertaining to the post?

I dont have a question because the metaphors gave me brain freeze!!!! Let us just move on, it will be much safer for my senility!!!!!!!!!

[Robert R. Higby]

Mike: So when Paul speaks of us being new creatures he is speaking of us being creatures living in a new order?

Exactly, I love your way of putting it! The new order is inagurated by Christ and already perfect in him; we are a part of it because we are in him. We also already experience it in our own souls, albeit imperfectly.

On the matter of time vs. eternity in justification, I still can't see the distinction between the two when it comes to the mind and purposes of God. Even though the moment that our justification is legally constituted (the atonement) is eternally purposed by God, that justification spans all eternal ages being always present in God's purposes

[lionovjudah]

Acts 13:39 LITV

And everyone believing in this One is justified from all things which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses.

YLT: Act 13:39 and from all things from which ye were not able in the law of Moses to be declared righteous, in this one every one who is believing is declared righteous;


At first glance this appears to order the events of believing then justification.

now I know this is hard to ask, but without theological prejudice, can someone please construct the greek of this for me.