The Timing of Justification and Imputation

[Brandan Kraft]

John Gill wrote in his body of doctrinal divinity, “Now, as before observed, as God’s will to elect, is the election of his people, so his will to justify them, is the justification of them; as it is an immanent act in God, it is an act of his grace towards them, is wholly without them, entirely resides in the divine mind, and lies in his estimating, accounting, and constituting them righteous, through the righteousness of his Son; and, as such, did not first commence in time, but from eternity.”

Now, I have been trying to think of a clearer statement on the doctrine of justification from eternity because of all the confusion that seems to surround it. Here Gill clearly states that God’s will to justify His people which is connected to His election of them exists entirely in His mind. He doesn’t use the word imputation, but he uses words to describe what imputation is. Imputation of righteousness means that God “estimates, accounts, and constitutes” a group of people as Righteousness. Where? His Divine Mind. And when does God think something? We cannot say that God thinks of anything in time as He is timeless, so therefore we must believe that all things are thought by God from eternity, and this includes the charging of sins to Christ and the constituting the elect as righteouss. I now think Gill would have helped his cause more if he had used the word of “imputation” in place of “justification”.

I now perceive that much confusion abounds over this doctrine because of Gill’s semantics. I do not disagree with Gill’s terminology, but I am willing to change my jargon for the sake of those who have difficulty with it. Those that aren’t of the fullerist persuasion and teach against justification from eternity have opposed it because they see it as something that competes with the cross of Christ. If this doctrine competes with the cross of Christ, then I would most certainly agree with them. But I do not see that! And after thinking about this all week, I’ve concluded that justification from eternity could be considered as poor terminology by many and easily misunderstood. I think I understand where the opposers are coming from although I am still unwilling to admit that Gill was perfectly clear.

The act of justification, that is the act of Christ dying for His people did not take place in eternity. Therefore, we cannot say the necessary work for justification took place IN eternity. It took place in time. Please do not misunderstand me on this very important point. Surely we can all agree on this! There are not multiple imputations just as there are not multiple justifications. There is only ONE JUSTIFICATION! There was no more work that needed to be done for salvation by Christ or the Holy Spirit after the cross because it was completed in Christ. All of the work was finished. Done. Complete. FINITO! I don’t think Scott Price or any of the parties involved with this important discussion would disagree with me on this. We should all be able to say that it was in VIEW OF Christ’s finished work that God’s people were accounted as righteous (past tense), and this was a timely event.

But what are we to think of imputation? Where or when does that take place? Was there a physical court that surrounded the cross of Christ where God accounted the elect as righteous in time? No! Of course not! And don’t try to tell me that such an absurdity occurred such as the preterists claim when they spew forth their ungodly babble with the idea that God entered into a physical heavenly holy of hollies in 70AD. Imputation is completed. And it hasn’t taken place in time at all. All of God’s accounting and constituting is from eternity, as He Himself is eternal. He accounts things as such, and His accounting of them does not change, as eternity is changeless - indeed God Himself is immutable. He is the Lord, and He changeth not. God does change things, but He Himself does not change. This world is constantly changing from one moment to the next, yet we can rest knowing that He does not change or is moved. So if the work of justification is done in time, perhaps a more appropriate term for justification from eternity should be imputation from eternity. There is no other imputation than that which is from eternity. Imputation does not take place in time. The effects of it do, as His accounting changes things, but His accounting itself does not.

Those involved with this discussion, please understand that I am opposed with all of my being the concept of multiple imputations. There are not multiple accountings or constitutions. There is only one constitution of anything, and that is from eternity. And God’s accounting is in no means “fictional!” Who would dare call God’s thoughts “legal fiction?” No sir, as far as I’m concerned, if God thinks it’s real, then it’s real! If God viewed His Son as sinful while He was on the cross, then Christ was truly treated as such. He did not become sinful in His person, but He knew that God would account Him as such. Christ knew it and He suffered. Why? Because that is exactly what God decreed would be satisfactory to Him. And God’s imputation of righteousness is real as well. It need not be imparted or infused to make it real, because God’s accounting is perfect! I know I’m digressing a bit here, but if we are going to make something that God accounts as “unreal”, we are spitting in the face of God! Who are we to say to God what is real and what is not? If He says something is righteous from His perspective, then that’s all we need to hear. That is why the elect rejoice in the cross of Christ because as far as God is concerned, HE REALLY SAW HIS ELECT AS RIGHTEOUS! And my friends, that is all that really matters to me. Did God see me as Righteous in Christ at the cross? When God looked upon Christ on the cross, was He thinking how unrighteous His sheep were? Please, don’t think that was so! He was most definitely looking upon Christ in pleasure as that is what He had determined would make His sheep righteous in His sight, and that He would be glorified in doing so.

So as much as I respect John Gill, and his doctrine of Justification from Eternity, and understand completely what he meant by that term, I now propose changing the name of it. Imputation from Eternity with the physical work of making an individual “right” before the sight of God occurring in time is what I will attempt to convey to individuals from now on. The work of justification occurred in time and imputation of righteousness is the eternal and immanent act of God. Let us strive to come to a better understanding of these concepts, as I believe they are very important.

[Mickey]

Justification is a simple act of the divine eternal mind, or the absolute determination of God not to impute sin to his people, and to place the righteousness of Christ to their account. Deny the eternity of this determination, and where is the immutability of deity? Can it be said, with truth, that new resolutions are formed in the mind of God, and yet that he is unchangeable ? Surely not, for in that very moment in which he forms a new design, mutability attaches to his character, and his glory is tarnished. Let us then be careful, not to maintain a favourite notion at the expense of our Maker's glory. He is the Lord; he changes not. His thoughts, his counsels, his purposes and decrees, are, like the perfections of his nature, without the shadow of a change.

-Job Hupton

Amen!

[jmgipson]

If there could be an intervention of God's power between his decree in justifying His elect and their justification itself, this would be sufficient evidence that God's mere decree to create, gives no actual being to anything, nor does His will and purpose to justify give existence or being to justification.

Unknown author

Amen to Job quote Michael.

[ray kikkert]

If there could be an intervention of God's power between his decree in justifying His elect and their justification itself, this would be sufficient evidence that God's mere decree to create, gives no actual being to anything, nor does His will and purpose to justify give existence or being to justification.

Unknown author

Amen to Job quote Michael.

For us , we maintain that God's sovereign will and purpose must always be the starting point in our exegesis. Our Lord reveals these matters to us in His Word. On the matter of justification it can be rightly said that the Lord in eternity saw us as justified and purposed that this justification would be enacted by His Son, our Saviour, at the cross. These are not 2 justifications but the very same.

I maintain the same for the doctrine of righteousness and the imputation of righteousness.

That firm foundation that God's sovereign purposes are paramount. What a blessing to be busy with learning, and getting understanding of the Lord, to learn more about Him daily. Our Father in heaven, whose Name is hallowed forever, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Thank you for your comments from which I can glean from.

[lionovjudah]

if anyone has time. Read this discourse by Owen.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/owen/just.toc.html

[Brandan Kraft]

God is not getting any older. Yes, that's right, He is not old, nor is He young. Indeed, He is timeless. 10,000 years ago, God was as old as He is today. And that is, He is without AGE. If God is to be seen as immutable, then we must comprehend Him to be without time, for time is defined in terms of change itself. God Himself is the beginning and end of time, and it is from HIM (eternity) that all of time proceeds. The Lord we worship is so big that all of creation cannot contain Him (Acts 17:27f). To be blunt, God is simply everywhere and everytime. His mind spans from eternity to eternity, and thus governs all things as well as sees all things at the same time.

Ps 139:7-13, (KJV), Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? (8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (9) If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; (10) Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. (11) If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. (12) Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. (13) For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Here, the psalmist describes in brilliant detail all the temporal and spatial aspects of what God has created. There is not a place that we can go to escape God's presence which also includes heaven and hell. It is simply not possible to escape from God no matter where we might go or when it might be. If one could build a time machine and jump backwards or forwards in time, God would be there. After time passes, do not think that God has taken His hand off of it.

Heaven is God's throne, and the earth is His footstool (Isa 66:1). His footstool! Can you imagine? God has not taken his hand off of His creation and simply "allowed" time to continue on as so many deists would have us believe. He is constantly interacting with His creation, and as the psalmist quoted above, that darkness and light cannot in any sense be a hindrance to him as neither can time or eternity. He is after all, God.

So what is eternity? Well the bible clearly state that God Himself is eternity and it is where God's inhabitance is found.

Isa 57:15, (KJV), For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Ps 90:2, (KJV), Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.



Everything God thought or purposed is from eternity. From eternity, He created the earth. He did not create time and then move his inhabitance into time in order to create timely things. He has done it all from eternity. His work is from eternity, yet it is completed in time. Thus we can conclude that all things are from eternity, including the justification of men.

The Eternity of God, or his being from everlasting to everlasting, is without succession, or any distinctions of time succeeding one another, as moments, minutes, hours, days, months, and years: the reasons are, because he existed before such were in being; Before the day was, I am he, Isaiah 43:13, before there was a day, before the first day of the cration, before there were any days, consisting of so many hours, and these of so many mintues; and if his eternity past, may it be so called, was without successive duration or without succeeding moments, and other distinctions of time, why not his duration through time, and to all eternity, in the same manner? Should it be said, that days and years are ascribed to God; it is true, they are; but it is in accommodation and condescension to our weak minds, which are not capable of conceiving of duration but as successive: and besides, those days and years ascribed to God are expressly said not to be ours, Job 10:5, He is indeed, called, The Ancient of Days, Daniel 7:13, nat ancient in days, or through them, as aged persons are said to be in years, and well stricken in them; not so God: the meaning is, that he is more ancient than days; he was before all days, and his duration is not to be measured by them. And it may be observed, that the differences and distinctions of time are together ascribed to God, and not as succeeding one another; he is the same yesterday, to day, and for ever; these are all at once, and together with him; he is he which is, and was, and is to come, Hebrews 13:8; Revelation 1:4, these meet together in his name, Jehovah; and so in his nature; he co-exists, with all the points of time, in time; but is unmoved and unaffected with any, as a rock in the rolling waves of the sea, or a tower in a torrent of gliding water; or as the gnomon or stile of a sundial, which has all the hours of the day surrounding it, and the sun, by it casts a shade upon them, points at and distinguishes them, but the stile stands firm and unmoved, and not affected thereby: hence it is that one day with the Lord as a thousand years; and a thousand years as one day, 2 Peter 3:8. But if his duration was successive, or proceeded by succeeding moments, days, and years; one day would be but one day with him, and not a thousand; and a thousand days would answer to a thousand days, and not be as one only. Besides, if his duration was measured by a succession of moments, &c. then he would not be immense, immutable, and perfect, as he is: not immense, or unmeasurable, if to be measured by minutes, hours, days, months, and years; whereas, as he is not to be measured by space, so not by time: nor immutable; since he would be one minute what he was not before, even older, which cannot be said of God; for as a Jewish write well observes, it cannot be said of him, that he is older now than he was in the days of David, or when the world was created; for he is always, both before the world was made, and after it will cease to be; times make no change in him. Nor perfect; for if his duration was successive, there would be every moment something past and gone, lost and irrecoverable; and something to come not yet arrived to and obtained; and in other respects he must be imperfect: the knowledge of God proves him without successive duration. God knows all things, past, present, and to come, that is, which are so to us; not that they are so to him; these he knows at once, and all together, not one thing after another, as they successively come into being; all things are open and manifest to him at once and together, not only what are past and present, but he calls things that are not yet, as though they were; he sees and knows all in one view, in his all-comprehending mind; and as his knowledge is not successive, so not his duration. Moreover, in successive duration, there is an order of former and latter; there must be a beginning from whence every flux of time, every distinction proceeds; every moment and minute has a beginning, from whence it is reckoned, so every hour, day, month, and year: but as it is said of Christ, with respect to his divine nature, so it is true of God, essentially considered, that he has neither beginning of days, nor end of life, Hebrews 7:3. In short, God is Eternity itself, and inhabits eternity; so he did before time, and without succession; so he does throughout time; and so he will to all eternity. (John Gill, The Eternity of God, pp. 97-98)

What has been written above is not thought by all those who claim to be Christians. Indeed, the most prevalent notion is the idea that eternity is just another stage of time that existed before the earth existed or is simply a pre-existing extension of time. It is thought that God is timely, just infinitely so. This type of thinking has been propagated by most modern theologians including those who claim to believe sovereign grace. Indeed, even supralapsarian Westminster chairman William Twisse thought of eternity as a previous extension of time! This erroneous thinking is to be found in most protestant thought including fullerists, This understanding for me is unacceptable as it not only the basis for erroneous thinking, but it completely and utterly destroys the concept of God, for what is God without His attributes?

Imagine for a moment that time is a big ruler which we find ourselves standing upon and we are walking on it from left to right. On it, we can barely see what is going to happen on the next centimeter we step across. But God is holding this ruler, and he not only sees what is coming with the next centimeter, but he put everything on the ruler at once, and sees it all at once. He sees a centimeter on this ruler where Christ is seen as the satisfaction for His people. At the same time, he sees the beginning centimeter as well as the centimeter where His people come to know of what happened in the past. That is how God views time, and that is how He views His people in Christ.

Let my people be justified in Christ! God said it! And He said it from eternity where imputation itself takes place. Christ accomplished this justification in time, and God’s elect experience it at the time of faith. It is where they experience the application of it, and it is experienced through the gift of faith alone and not of works lest anyone should boast (Eph. 2:8-9)!

Objections Answered:



While I was at the conference, I had an opportunity to meet with Steve Baloga in person and have a good long discussion with him. He has openly written against Justification from Eternity on the web, and has written to me privately by e-mail. Because of his public attack on the doctrine of Justification from Eternity, then I will also answer him publicly. This answer is not intended to be disrespectful or controversial. But I am only interested in presenting what I believe is the truth for the benefit of the elect. In an e-mail to me in October of 2004, Steve wrote:

I would be disingenuous if I did not exhort you to reconsider your view of eternal justification. Gill had not one legitimate verse of Scripture to support his humanly contrived view. This is akin to mysticism and not objective revelation. Not only were the elect not justified in eternity (meaning before time), the clear revelation of Scripture is that the elect were in fact under the sentence of condemnation after the fall of Adam (Rom 5:12, ff). God did not issue a veiled threat, but the elect were under a real or actual sentence of condemnation until Christ came and removed them from under this sentence. To say the elect were justified from eternity is to say God sentenced them to condemnation while yet justified. This is to impugn the all wise God with confusion. But the confusion lies with us, not God. Regrettably, there are supposed sovereign grace preachers who continue to propagate this blasphemy. I say blasphemy because ANY teaching that competes with justification completely and solely finished at the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ is just that -- blasphemy. I hold this heresy to be in the same category as the Reformed heresy of justification by "faith". Both are attempts to pervert the gospel and call attention away from the very heart of the gospel -- justification at the cross of Jesus Christ by sin imputed to His account and His righteousness imputed to the elects' accounts resulting in full justification (Rom 4:25). That is the only justification there is in Scripture. It is the very heart and center of true gospel preaching. It is the very glory of Jesus Christ. Before justification could be declared by God, a real Body had to establish a righteousness under the law and real blood had to be shed. The righteous attribute of God the Son is not and never shall be the righteousness of the saints. It is the righteousness of God that had to be earned in time by Christ that was in turn imputed in time to the saints (Rom 3:21 - note the adverb in the original is in its prolonged form meaning "just now", i.e., after the cross; the righteousness of God "just now" manifested being (formerly) witnessed to by the law and the prophets). This was God's wise design and I cannot go along with those who walk contrary to the this most vital of all gospel truth.

Now in the style of the internet discussion forums, I will break Steve’s argument up line by line and deal with it as I believe it is deserving of a reply.

Steve wrote, “Not only were the elect not justified in eternity (meaning before time), the clear revelation of Scripture is that the elect were in fact under the sentence of condemnation after the fall of Adam (Rom 5:12, ff). God did not issue a veiled threat, but the elect were under a real or actual sentence of condemnation until Christ came and removed them from under this sentence.”

Immediately, Steve strikes out on his understanding of Gill’s doctrine. Gill did not believe or teach that the work of justification took place in eternity, but he believed and taught that it took place from eternity. Gill never taught that Christ’s obedience was wrought out in eternity, but that it was wrought out in time. Gill taught that imputation was an immanent act of God and that it resided solely within the mind of God.
Further, Steve’s quotation of Rom. 5:12 is a typical verse that is quoted against this doctrine.

Rom 5:12, (KJV), Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This condemnation that fell upon Adam and his elect posterity was not a condemnation to hell. But it was a spiritual condemnation. God’s elect are fashioned in iniquity, and have no knowledge of God when they are born. Indeed, they are totally depraved and have no desire of the things of God. They are born spiritually dead. But that does not mean that God views them as those that are on their way to hell. Steve’s thinking is typical of low grace theologians where they see the cross as God’s intervention and something which God must necessarily perform because sin exists. It is true that the cross came about in order to redeem men from sin, but the sinfulness and spiritual death of man was purposed so that Christ would save His people from it. There was never any danger of God’s people falling into hell, even before the cross because the very possibility did not even exist. God Himself did not view His people as headed for hell because He indeed purposed that they would not! The hatred of God has never rested upon His elect whether it is before the cross or after. And besides, after all in this review which has been taught concerning eternity, we should now believe that God views all at once, and we must comprehend things from God’s view of the end instead of the beginning. God sees all of His saints as justified and even glorified (Rom. 8:30) because He sees everything at once and He has already accomplished it.

Steve wrote, “To say the elect were justified from eternity is to say God sentenced them to condemnation while yet justified.”

But God’s people were not sentenced to an everlasting condemnation. They were condemned to be born in spiritual death in order that God’s purpose of raising them in Christ would stand. Like I said above, God never saw them as on their way to hell, for that was not His purpose for them! The cross was not a reaction to the fall, but it was the very reason that the fall took place. The denial of justification from eternity stems from infralapsarian thinking which in my opinion stems from a misunderstanding of what eternity actually is as well as a misunderstanding of who God is. The distinctions between supralapsarian and infralapsarian thinking are much more important than what most theologians would have you to believe. And while some men may hold to supralapsarian tendencies, they still might hold to a infralapsarian thought process as demonstrated here by Baloga. Even John Gill had his inconsistencies, and I have met men who seem to understand justification from eternity, yet hold to an infralapsarian view of the scriptures, thus convoluting and polluting this important doctrine.

Steve wrote: “Regrettably, there are supposed sovereign grace preachers who continue to propagate this blasphemy. I say blasphemy because ANY teaching that competes with justification completely and solely finished at the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ is just that -- blasphemy.”

Again, this statement is based on a misunderstanding of the doctrine. In my impromptu follow-up conversation with Steve in Albany I deliberately went out of my way to explain that I agree with his premise. Any teaching that does compete with justification finished at the cross is blasphemy. To state that justification is based upon anything but Christ and His accomplished work is to rob God of His glory which was purposed in the everlasting covenant of grace. Steve agreed with me that Justification was purposed from eternity, but he in my opinion could not successfully defend how a denial of God’s eternal view of the elect as righteous does not destroy the concept of an immutable God.

In our conversation, we also talked about the the Old Testament saints where he commented that they were not seen as righteous until the cross. He referenced Rom. 3:25 where Paul talks about how Christ’s death is a propitiation for those saints who were supposedly suffered by God through His forbearance. Apparently forbearance according to Steve was understood by himto be something that allowed God not to send them to hell immediately for their sins. But Steve believed that righteousness had not been imputed to their account. In a sense, Steve is right. Imputation had not yet been imputed to their account because imputation is something that does not occur in time. It happens in the mind of God, and that is in eternity because that is where He has his inhabitance (see above). The work of Christ was still yet to occur in time from Abraham’s perspective, but that does not mean he was not seen as righteous by God! God’s view of Abraham was identical to that of His view of the post-calvary Christians. He saw Abraham as righteous in Christ, otherwise He would not be able to demonstrate a timely forbearance because any sort of love demonstrated toward Abraham had to be conditioned upon something; and that something was indeed Christ! Forbearance for Abraham meant that God would not crush him because of what Christ was about to do. Abraham had to wait for that time when the messiah would come and bear his sin in his body. The only difference between Abraham and new testament Christians is he looked forward to the cross for the basis of his justification whereas new testament saints look backward to it. God’s view of it or His people has not changed one iota. And to suggest that God’s affections or understanding of anything has changed is to deny His immutability, and thus God Himself! Baloga, and those who would deny that imputation of righteousness is an eternal and immanent act of God are being ignorantly inconsistent or they are worshipping a god of their own imagination. So while I will patiently struggle with these men, I too would hope that they would patiently suffer those that for many years they have had agreement with, but now recently have started to reject. Scott Price believes that salvation is based solely upon the work of Christ, yet he inconsistently claims that imputation occurs at the time of faith. What exactly he means by that I do not understand, but I am patiently striving with him, hoping that he will begin to see things more clearly as I hope for myself. For the time being, I will assume that Scott is simply being inconsistent, or is using a semantic that is different from mine. I’m not denying that semantics aren’t important, but I contend that sometimes we have the tendency to split hairs!

I walked away from my conversation with Steve thinking that there was a misunderstanding of justification from eternity on his part, and that is why he condemned it. I explained to him my position, and he seemed a bit more comfortable with me. I have hope that we can continue to discuss this peacefully and that the truth would be magnified.

To conclude this segment, I will reiterate that time itself is inherited from eternity. Eternity is not at all affected by what happens in time as God Himself iseternity. Eternity is not an extension of time, or even measured in time. To suggest that time is a starting place for anything in eternity will enable those who are opposed to the Gospel of Sovereign Grace to dream up all kinds of strange ideas such as the well-meant offer and common grace / fulerism because those ideas are based on the idea of there being "multiple wills" of God. It leads to the dangerous errors of Spurgeonesque preaching where men are enabled to stand in the pulpit and declare, that God desires all men to be saved. But if God is seen as something that does not change, and as a Person who has defined all the events of time simultaneously, these things are incomprehensible. The doctrine of eternity unfortunately has been neglected and an erroneous undestanding has been taught for far too long. Let us throw off this old baggage and come to know more of the infinite riches of God!
Personally, it is the idea of imputation in eternity, and the work of justification being purposed from eternity that has brought much peace to my soul. To think that God has never viewed His elect as sinful, but from eternally as always joined to Christ and baptized in His death and thus their resurrection in Him means that they were indeed made for this great salvation. They were made to be the objects of His affection from the beginning. God did not create decree to create Adam and allow Him to sin only so that He would decretively select from a group of fallen humanity. But He purposed his fall so that ultimately He would be glorified and that those who come to know Him would rejoice in Him forever and ever! The new earth for God's people will not be simply a restoration to the garden of Eden, but the creation was subjected to much suffering to prepare a way for something even greater that has been planned from eternity! What exactly God's people will experience, I cannot say entirely. But it will be far greater than anything any of us including Adam ever experienced. Time will never come to an end, and forever God's people can rest knowing that nothing is a surprise to Him. God reacts to nothing! They can rest knowing that He has always loved them, and that all things have been purposed and will continue to be of benefit for those that love Him.

[jmgipson]

Brandan,
I have gone back and read that chapter in Gills book twice now and am still amazed. Eternity is so not what I thought in my past life. Thanks for that word.

John

[lionovjudah]

I cant get an attachement on here. exceedes quota

[Brandan Kraft]

I cant get an attachement on here. exceedes quota

E-mail it to me Joe.

[Righteous by Faith]

as new participant, I am trying to catch up. Can someobdy tell me where there has been any discussion of Romans 4 and Paul's point that Abraham was justified by God before Abraham was circumcised?

Of course faith in the true gospel is immediately after God's imputation of righteousness. That does not prove that God imputed the righteousness to all the elect at the same time that God decreed to justify, or at the same time at which Christ earned that righteousness which God imputes.

Does anybody on this list believe that God knows before and after, that God has a plan BEFORE that plan happens in history. Is there anybody on the list who questions the Platonic notion of "eternity" when it is read into Bible talk about the ages?

[Brandan Kraft]

"Bush is a liar", I'm going to have to ask you to change your screen name. It's offensive, and while I agree that all men are liars, we will give more respect to the President of the United States on this board than what you have displayed. So please send me a private message with the new username, or I will change it for you to something of my choosing.

Concerning your insistence upon imputation in "time", where exactly does imputation take place? I thought imputation was a charging to one's account righteousness or sin. And where are these "accounts?" Do you believe men are carrying their accounts in their back pockets?

[lionovjudah]

THis attachement is how I look at justification from eternity in time...

The circle represents eternity and the linear line across represents time. The cross is in view from beginning to end. and all lines are attached to the cross of Christ.

Thanks for the help on this pic BK

[jmgipson]

Over in the download section I uploaded 1 minute section of what most preachers preach on justification. And it is the extent of what folks hear. This was the heritic I once sat under 5 years ago. Not only do they have no clue of the timing of Justification, they don't even know what it is.

John

[Brandan Kraft]

Wow John, that was pretty bad!

[Righteous by Faith]

God has the account. Justification is before God, not simply before my conscience. Before the propitiation is imputed by God to God's account, those who rely on the works of the law are under the curse. The elect are not only at enmity with God, but God is at "law enmity" with the elect, until the propitiation/reconciliation is imputed. This is before regeneration, calling and faith.

Or do you maintain that you were never of the works of the law, and never under the curse. See Galatians 3:10.

[lionovjudah]

God has the account. Justification is before God, not simply before my conscience. Before the propitiation is imputed by God to God's account, those who rely on the works of the law are under the curse. The elect are not only at enmity with God, but God is at "law enmity" with the elect, until the propitiation/reconciliation is imputed. This is before regeneration, calling and faith.

Or do you maintain that you were never of the works of the law, and never under the curse. See Galatians 3:10.

May I ask who you are speaking too?

[Brandan Kraft]

God has the account.

God has it, but where is it? Where is God? I agree that men before faith have no experience of justification. They are condemned by their own consciences, but they are God's view of them does not change when they come to have faith, wouldn't you agree?

[Righteous by Faith]

Notice that I do not teach that faith is the righteousness, nor do I teach that faith is a condition of the righteousness. I teach that where there is faith (assurance) in the gospel, this is evidence that one was elect in Christ and how has now been imputed with Christ's righteousness. There is a time in history in which all those in the Lamb's book of life become dead to the law, and pass from a state of condemnation into legal life and peace with God. The calling of the gospel is not the imputation but the effect of the imputation. II thess 2:13 God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit...

[Brandan Kraft]

I agree that faith is a result of imputation, but why does imputation occur just before faith? Why cannot imputation occur in the mind of God in eternity and then have assurance of imputation appllied at the appointed time to each and every one of His elect?

[jmgipson]

Notice that I do not teach that faith is the righteousness, nor do I teach that faith is a condition of the righteousness. I teach that where there is faith (assurance) in the gospel, this is evidence that one was elect in Christ and how has now been imputed with Christ's righteousness. There is a time in history in which all those in the Lamb's book of life become dead to the law, and pass from a state of condemnation into legal life and peace with God. The calling of the gospel is not the imputation but the effect of the imputation. II thess 2:13 God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit...

Isa 45:24-25
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
KJV

The seed of Israel is in eternal union with the Lord. The text declares, the seed of Israel is justified in the Lord, not by the Lord, though they are justified by the Lord and througbht the Lord, yet is is "in the Lord", the eternal union which existed before all the worlds. it is by virtue of this eternal union we stand acquitted and accepted in the beloved - as it says here in the text justified in Him.

1 Cor 1:30-31
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. KJV

John