R C Sproul Jr. Defrocked?

[lionovjudah]

http://hushmoney.org/RPCGA-judgment.pdf

[ray kikkert]

http://hushmoney.org/RPCGA-judgment.pdf

Joe could you post the article. I do not have PDF.

Please , if you do not , I will punch you in the face

[Saint Nicholas]

Joe.......So what's next? Will these men be sentenced by the clerical rogues? What would be a just punishment? Should they be flogged...burned at the stake....hung...tarred and feathered..stoned...bloodletted of evil demons...limbs torn assunder?
What's your suggestion?

Nicholas

[lionovjudah]

Joe could you post the article. I do not have PDF.

Please , if you do not , I will punch you in the face

http://hushmoney.org/RPCGA-judgment.doc

http://hushmoney.org/R.C._Sproul_Jr....er.htm#update3

Try this Ray


And nick, I have no comment as of yet. Just glanced at the article briefly

[humbled]

Joe.......So what's next? Will these men be sentenced by the clerical rogues? What would be a just punishment? Should they be flogged...burned at the stake....hung...tarred and feathered..stoned...bloodletted of evil demons...limbs torn assunder?
What's your suggestion?

Nicholas

Apparently the Presbytery felt it enough to 'disband' them.

"Most importantly, their actions manifest that they lack the qualification for the ministry (1Timothy 3:1-7). It would be unwise to allow these men to continue to hold an office for which they are not qualified."

[doctr_of_grace]

Joe could you post the article. I do not have PDF.

Please , if you do not , I will punch you in the face

Ray ... acrobat reader is free you should download it . Of course you probably knew that ... just giving a fellow presby brother a bad time.

Jan

[Brandan Kraft]

Wow, from the article:

“…before R. C. Jr. and St. Peter’s join the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly I had numerous conversations with R. C. about the RPCGA due to my past affiliation. One such conversation took place while he and I were having lunch prior to a radio broadcast in Rural Retreat. In unambiguous terms I explained to R. C. that he would not be allowed to practice padeo-communion in the RPCGA (he had already agreed to this if he had been accepted in the PCA.) He acknowledged my instruction on the matter and seemed to understand. I find it hard to believe that he would now say something different.”

[ray kikkert]

Ray ... acrobat reader is free you should download it . Of course you probably knew that ... just giving a fellow presby brother a bad time.

Jan

Ha!

Wow , Joe how did you get ahold of this??

These are major charges.

I wonder if Sproul will now cozy up the the Wilson clan in the CREC??

[wildboar]

As in most situations like this, I'm sure there was sin on both sides. There were a couple of charges that I read in the letter that just from reading R.C. Sproul Jr.'s writings I know to be false. Much of it, I don't have the knowledge to say either way. The statement about the position of the RPCGA being the same as that of the other Presbyterian denominations listed is a bit muddy since some of these denominations have slightly different positions. The OPC will not license a man who holds to paedocommunion (although at least one of their current ministers holds tot this position). The PCA will license a man but will not allow him to practice it. There is a very short message on the St. Peter Presbyterian church website about the change in denominational affiliation http://highlands.gospelcom.net/StPeter/index.php It seems that they admit to and have repented in regards to the major charges.

I disagree with the action that they took but can sympathize with them. I don't hold to paedocommunion, but do believe that communion should occur much younger than it does in most Dutch Reformed churches. However, I can sympathize with R.C. Sproul Jr. He does believe in paedocommunion and has a daughter who due to disabilities will never be able to demonstrate her faith. If I held to R.C. Jr.'s position and had a child who I knew would never be able to make a confession of faith suitable for a group of elders to approve, I would be greatly tempted to do what he did.

[ray kikkert]

I disagree with the action that they took but can sympathize with them. I don't hold to paedocommunion, but do believe that communion should occur much younger than it does in most Dutch Reformed churches. However, I can sympathize with R.C. Sproul Jr. He does believe in paedocommunion and has a daughter who due to disabilities will never be able to demonstrate her faith. If I held to R.C. Jr.'s position and had a child who I knew would never be able to make a confession of faith suitable for a group of elders to approve, I would be greatly tempted to do what he did.

Charles, it is clear at least that he lorded himself over his fellow officebearers. Regardless of his personal situation the least he could have done was go through the eccle. route that he submitted himself to.

This will work itself out no doubt in the upcoming trial.

This is a lone ranger mentality where a man's feelings and emotions trump doctrinal truth. This at the expense of the denomination he belongs to.

That one repents of sin is fine. When one repents only after he has been found out and being in a position of authority as a servant to Christ is striking and discipline ought then to be swift and severe.

[lionovjudah]

I do not understnad what power is yielded to scare people into staying? I mean lets face it, excommunication means very little in the world today. This is the fruits of the reformation. So why did these people allow themselves to be bullied as if the RPCA excommunicated them, they would end up damned or something.

Church polity to me is something I have no clue about. But if someone did that to me I would tell them to go and, well you know what i mean. I would just leave and go to another church and not look back.

[ray kikkert]

I do not understnad what power is yielded to scare people into staying? I mean lets face it, excommunication means very little in the world today. This is the fruits of the reformation. So why did these people allow themselves to be bullied as if the RPCA excommunicated them, they would end up damned or something.

Church polity to me is something I have no clue about. But if someone did that to me I would tell them to go and, well you know what i mean. I would just leave and go to another church and not look back.

To be deposed from office is serious. I agree that discipline seems lost in most congregations and is evident with the vain philosophies they are willing to warm up to.

Nonetheless the importance of discipline to the congregation must be evident:

1: That the name of God may not be blasphemed by the world.
2: To safeguard the loyal members of the congregation against the bad influence of the unfaithful.
3: To move the sinner to shame and repentance.

[wildboar]

Ray:

Like I said, I certainly disagree with his course of action. However, some of the examples given in the document relating to Sproul Jr. being guilty of "lording over" are no different from things I have witnessed in the PRC and in other denominations as well. That does not excuse it, but if you are going to start complaining, start in your own denomination. It is also quite a shame that some on the web are taking some sick delight in any of this. I doubt that Wilson will cozy up to Wilson regardless of whether or not he joins the CREC. Sproul's position on certain key issues is different from that of the Federal Vision. He was actually scheduled to be one of those on the anti-Federal Vision side in the Knox symposium but had some scheduling conflicts. I do think that both he and Wilson are certainly worth reading much of the time even when I find myself strongly disagreeing with them.

Lion:

Excommunication among conservative Reformed and Presbyterian folks is still a big issue and it should be. Fragmentation among various reformed and presbyterian bodies unfortunately has diminished the force of it but not completely.

[ray kikkert]

Ray:

Like I said, I certainly disagree with his course of action. However, some of the examples given in the document relating to Sproul Jr. being guilty of "lording over" are no different from things I have witnessed in the PRC and in other denominations as well.

Either you agree or disagree. You do not fence sit. I have no reason to doubt you but it is ironic you would whine of the PRC while stating just below here " It is quite a shame that some on the web are taking some sick delight in any of this"

That does not excuse it, but if you are going to start complaining, start in your own denomination. It is also quite a shame that some on the web are taking some sick delight in any of this.

I see you still have hard feelings over the PRC and have found justice in the URC........Correction, you are now not just a fencesitter but a sucky baby as well. What is sick is Sproul's actions and what is more sick is folks who have a problem disciplining him like you. One wonders what pacifier to shove in your mouth to stop your whining, none seem to suffice.

I doubt that Wilson will cozy up to Wilson regardless of whether or not he joins the CREC. Sproul's position on certain key issues is different from that of the Federal Vision. He was actually scheduled to be one of those on the anti-Federal Vision side in the Knox symposium but had some scheduling conflicts. I do think that both he and Wilson are certainly worth reading much of the time even when I find myself strongly disagreeing with them.

Well if Chuck can jump ship just like that and change up his doctrinal positions he spoke so valiantly about..... then anything is possible

I will not be surprised if an unholy alliance is set up.

[ray kikkert]

Well if Chuck can jump ship just like that and change up his doctrinal positions he spoke so valiantly about..... then anything is possible

I will not be surprised if an unholy alliance is set up.

Wow, even I was surprised by how fast the unholy alliance is coming together:

"
Update February 5, 2005

RPCGA Dismisses RC Sproul Jr and Defrocked Session and Is Immediately Reappointed as Elders by St. Peter Presbyterian Congregational Church

On February 2, 2006 the deposed session of St. Peter Presbyterian Church issued a letter to the Westminster Presbytery of the RPCGA repenting and asking forgiveness for a number of grievous offenses, and requesting to be dismissed from the jurisdiction of the Presbytery:
Repentance020206.pdf
On February 3, 2006 the Westminster Presbytery of the RPCGA dismissed RC Sproul Jr, Laurence Windham, Wayne Hays and Jay Barfield:
ToDeposedSession.doc
ToDeposedSession.pdf
The RPCGA had cause to believe that this tragic saga was now largely over.
However, it would seem that RC Sproul Jr has once again demonstrated his inability to comprehend what the word "repentance" means and, as such, the saga for the St. Peter Presbyterian Church continues.
A Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches (CREC) church in Knoxville and it's pastor claim to be providing "oversight" to St. Peter. However, this "oversight" comes with some interesting arrangements in terms of who is actually in charge of who. The "oversight" pastor, David Queener, was ordained by RC Sproul Jr, and now that RC has been defrocked David Queener is returning the favor by helping to legitimize his old defrocked friend.
CREC Pastor David Queener preached at St. Peter today from 1Timothy 5:19, "Against an elder receive not an accusation." The message to the St. Peter congregation was apparent, along with apparent ominous overtones. Mr. Queener helped set the stage for what would transpire later that evening.
The RPCGA stated in its Declaratory Judgment of RC Sproul Jr and his session,
"Most importantly, their actions manifest that they lack the qualification for the ministry (1Timothy 3:1-7). It would be unwise to allow these men to continue to hold an office for which they are not qualified." Nevertheless, in the evening the names RC Sproul Jr, Laurence Windham, Jay Barfield and Wayne Hays were presented by a "steering committee" before the congregation of St. Peter Church to be reinstated as Elders (albeit non-ordained, indeed defrocked Elders) by a congregational vote. Nothing could have more clearly evidenced the defrocked elders' lack of sincere repentance to the multiple former members that they have tyrannized, and to the RPCGA which had declared them unfit "to hold an office for which they are not qualified," than for them to have immediately pursued their former offices.
By a majority of the voting head of household members the congregation of St. Peter Church determined to reinstate their defrocked session as their Elders. It would appear that the members of St. Peter, along with their defrocked session, have abandoned entirely the Presbyterian polity they cherished so dearly for years. Now St. Peter is an Independent Congregational church. Vox populi vox dei -- the voice of the people is the voice of God.
RC Sproul Jr has long claimed his need for accountability and to be "under authority." He promised his congregation, and he promised his denomination, to submit to ecclesiastical authority. The authority that he swore an oath to obey (RPCGA) rendered a sentence against him, defrocking him and deeming him unfit for the office of Elder. Clearly, RC Sproul Jr has demonstrated that he has no genuine regard for submitting to authority. By his actions RC Sproul Jr has proven that he was never a Presbyterian but an autonomist.
RC Sproul Jr and his defrocked session are known to have been in negotiations with the CREC since the first of January. Though St. Peter Congregational Church voted to reinstate their defrocked elders, it remains to be seen if the CREC (or any other denomination that St. Peter solicits an imprimatur from) will defy the RPCGA's judgment and re-ordain the defrocked men. "

[whs1]

What exactly did R.C. Jr do?

[GraceAmbassador]

Whs1 and all:
Funny that you asked! I don't know, I don't want to know and I don't care for those who do know!

I don't put my life into spiritual submission of these guy's ministry; I don't worship their name, their ministries their teaching nor their self proclaimed importance; I don't like name dropping and I think that the Reformed Circles is getting worse than those who crucified Jimmy Swaggart in the Assemblies of God, whose difference from Jimmy is that they were not caught yet... In fact, I think the Reformed circle is getting worse than the National Enquirer with no offense to the tabloid! Alas if God would support so much gossip in the name of ecclesiastical discipline!

I believe the sense of "self-importance" some acquire from knowing of someone else's dirty laundry and especially those who go around searching the Internet for whatever they can find about someone else's life either because their own is helpless or they simply are too blind to see that it is, is purely singing in the devil's choir as he mocks true Christianity because of these people!

I want churchianity and denominational politics go to gehenna with all their rules, regulations and hypocritical stances, as much as I want those who fetch dirt on them to go along with them...

It is all there is too it! POLITICS

Poli: means "many"

Tic: can be a mispelling of "bood sucker"

So "POLITICS", especially in denominationa circles means:

MANY BLOOD SUCKERS!

Milt

[ray kikkert]

I don't like name dropping and I think that the Reformed Circles is getting worse than those who crucified Jimmy Swaggart in the Assemblies of God, whose difference from Jimmy is that they were not caught yet... Milt

How is Jimmy Swaggert doing anyways??

[ray kikkert]

What exactly did R.C. Jr do?

Were you unable to open the attachments Joe sent through?

If so let me know and I can direct you to them.

[Robert R. Higby]

I do know that R C Jr. holds to a conditional New Covenant, which attacks the very nature of the gospel. So far the obvious theological tension between R C Jr. and Sr. has been kept quiet from a public standpoint; you will find nothing of it on R.C. Sr.'s website even yielding a hint of it. But it is there! In spite of the fact that R.C. Sr. is really mixed up on a whole host of issues.

R.C. Jr. believes many doctrines in harmony with Federal Vision. I don't care if he tries to distance himself from Doug Wilson in semantics; in essence he believes the same stuff.