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Thread: God does desire the death of the wicked

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    God does desire the death of the wicked

    I am trying to come to a satisfactory conclusion on the interpretation of Ezekial 33:11 and 18:23, 32. I have read Herman Hoeksema and Piper and many others on this and have not found an interpretation that does not seem as though they are wiggling around (especially Piper). I would rather not hear any explanation using the two will theory which I think has been discussed in this forum and I believe that most here as myself think that scripture does not support this. I know that God does desire the death of the wicked from scripture:

    1 Sam 2:22-25
    Now Eli was very old; and he heard everything his sons did to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who assembled at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 23 So he said to them, "Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people. 24 No, my sons! For it is not a good report that I hear. You make the LORD's people transgress. 25 If one man sins against another, God will judge him. But if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?" Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the LORD desired to kill them.

    Deut 28:63
    63 And it shall be, that just as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.


    If anyone has good links or writings also I would appreciate them.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Suspended / Banned beloved57 is infamous around these parts beloved57's Avatar
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    Re: God does desire the death of the wicked

    I believe that a correct interpretation lies in understanding that the verses pertain to Gods covenant people...A people who are already in a covenent relationship with God...

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    Re: God does desire the death of the wicked

    Bob wrote:
    In the legion of controversies over teaching that is labeled and damned by 'evangelicals' as hyper-Calvinism, no scripture has ever been quoted more frequently than the following passage from Ezekiel:

    Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live? . . . "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord GOD. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies, says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!" Ezek. 18:19-23; 30-32 NKJV

    It is beneficial to read the whole chapter to gain an understanding of the context. Only the nation of Israel is being addressed, not the nations in general. The wicked in view are not the reprobate of the masses referred to in the Psalms and other prophets, but the currently unrepentant among those Jews exiled to Babylon. The terms of life and death expressed are clearly those of the law covenant (see Ex. 19:3-9); not the promise. The people of Israel are exhorted to turn from their wickedness back to God and avoid the curse of the law.

    The myriad of interpretations attempting to universalize this passage, as if it is expressing the principles of how God deals with all people in all ages, is nothing less than shameful. Two common variances of universalistic interpretation are worth mentioning: free-willism and hypo-Calvinism.

    1. Free-willism ignores every principle of God's covenant of grace taught elsewhere in the Bible and proposes that this passage teaches revolving-door salvation for all mankind. Such an interpretation has no gospel left to proclaim; man gets to heaven by purifying his own heart and obeying God. He is in an alternating state of salvation and damnation depending upon his current experience of personal righteousness and repentance. The most that the atonement does for people in this teaching is the forgiveness of past sins, granting a clean slate upon which man can write his own future salvation or damnation.

    2. Hypo-Calvinism and all versions of free-will theology ignore every principle of God's purpose of wrath taught elsewhere in the Bible; proposing that this passage denies a positive reprobation. God refers to the law-covenant; stating that in connection with it he has no pleasure in the death of the currently unrepentant among Israel. This is supposed to be telling us that God has no willing purpose to execute his eternal wrath upon a people created for the sole purpose of magnifying his glory in their damnation.

    Any such views deny the Pauline teaching of double predestination in Rom. 9, Christ's teaching of a positive reprobation in his parable of the soils, and even other Old Testament scriptures where a universal scope of God's pleasure and purposes is taught outright:

    "Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors, Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure. Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country, Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. Listen to me, you stubborn hearted, Who are far from righteousness; I bring My righteousness near, it shall not be far off; My salvation shall not linger, And I will place salvation in Zion, For Israil My glory. Isa. 46-8-10 NKJV

    The rest of Isaiah is very clear about God's purposes to redeem his remnant in Israel. He loves Israel only and will therefore accomplish his pleasure in the destruction of Babylon (especially 48:14). The context of these passages is very clearly related to the promise, not the law. We learn from God's subsequent revelation that the true Israel is not Israel after the flesh--but the remnant of fleshly Israel in whom God fulfills his eternal covenant--plus those whom God purposes to redeem from among the nations.

    God is very clear elsewhere in Ezekiel that he will experience no pity for the non-elect of Israel when he judges the finally impenitent for their iniquity ( 5:11, 7:4, 9; 8:18, 9:10). God laughs at the misfortune of the reprobate and mocks them when he finally brings about their last calamity (Ps. 37:13, 59:8, Prov. 1:26). So although God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked referred to in Ezek. 18, he most certainly takes pleasure in the final judgment of those predestined to reprobation.

    If the greater light of God's revelation to Paul is shone upon the Ezek. 18 passage, it becomes clear why God took no pleasure in the death of the wicked referred to there. The conditions of the ministration of condemnation there reiterated were impossible for mankind to fulfill. If there were no other covenant grounded purely in God's promised purpose of grace, all would perish. But God took pleasure in redeeming the wicked remnant among Israel who had been exiled to Babylon. He established with them a new and everlasting covenant based on grace which was wholly promissory (Ezek. 36, 37).
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    Re: God does desire the death of the wicked

    In Ezekiel it is talking about National Israel as a whole nation that is what is in the context...also, it is talking about PHYSICAL Consequences to disobedience TO THE LAW and the consequences as a NATION (the nation of Israel as a whole unit) in God's dealing with them...the "death of the wicked" is PHYSICAL DEATH. That is all.


    Bill
    Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
    25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

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    Re: God does desire the death of the wicked

    Quote Originally Posted by whs1
    In Ezekiel it is talking about National Israel as a whole nation that is what is in the context...also, it is talking about PHYSICAL Consequences to disobedience TO THE LAW and the consequences as a NATION (the nation of Israel as a whole unit) in God's dealing with them...the "death of the wicked" is PHYSICAL DEATH. That is all.


    Bill
    Bill, I know this is talking about physical death. The point I am making is there are men that God did desire the physical death of as you see in the scripture I listed. It seems there is something else I am missing here because God would not say He does not desire the death of man and then desire the death of men.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Re: God does desire the death of the wicked

    Quote Originally Posted by whs1
    In Ezekiel it is talking about National Israel as a whole nation that is what is in the context...also, it is talking about PHYSICAL Consequences to disobedience TO THE LAW and the consequences as a NATION (the nation of Israel as a whole unit) in God's dealing with them...the "death of the wicked" is PHYSICAL DEATH. That is all.


    Bill

    Since we all die, there has to be something more than this. Perhaps this involves God's longsuffering. An attribute I have yet to study much.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: God does desire the death of the wicked

    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57
    I believe that a correct interpretation lies in understanding that the verses pertain to Gods covenant people...A people who are already in a covenent relationship with God...
    http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=1976

    I think if you read Bob's statement in context of the thread where it was posted you might have your answer.

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    jmgipson is on a distinguished road jmgipson's Avatar
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    Re: God does desire the death of the wicked

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen
    http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=1976

    I think if you read Bob's statement in context of the thread where it was posted you might have your answer.

    Eileen~
    Eileen,
    Thank you for the link to the rest of what Brandan give me. I was trying to connect it but I couldn't until I read the whole thread. Thank you Brandan and Eileen for the info. I know alot of what I am trying to find has probably been hashed out but I can't seem to find it through the search engine.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Suspended / Banned beloved57 is infamous around these parts beloved57's Avatar
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    Re: God does desire the death of the wicked

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    Bob wrote: [/color][/size][/font]
    wow brandon, you laid it out pretty good right here, thanks...

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    Re: God does desire the death of the wicked

    I have to admit that was very enligtening Brandan, as Mrs. beloved_57, I have had the pleasure of learning some new things from this network. Thanks to all.
    Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.

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