What is "Dead Faith?"

[GraceAmbassador]

It seems Milt is errecting a straw man - arguing for GRACE GRACE GRACE when I am arguing for the exact same thing, except with the realization that God's grace does not STOP at gifting His elect with faith, but CONTINUES in His gifting them with good works to walk in. Brandan has jumped onto this same straw man and started beating him senseless along with Milt by saying such things as "Men are simply afraid to have a theology of Grace". I challenge either one of you to show me how WORKS are not a part of grace just as much as FAITH is a part of Grace. Read Eph 2:10 twenty times each until you get it if you must.

Furthermore Milt has errected a straw man of works somehow "proving to God that I am yours" when NOBODY has said any such thing. Works of the Holy Spirit are seen and appreciated by OUR MINDS, not by God's mind. There is a distinct difference and until this straw man is destroyed, there will only be futher confusion.

Dear Brother Kyle:

All I intended to do is to place my "résumé" in an emotional rampage of good intentions! I don't know why but apparently you thought that I was writing within the context of what we're discussing here and responding to you, when I had stated that it is not being a blessing to no one. Peahaps I was attempting to show works to you as you believe James commanded us to... See why works are "nothing"? Even when you attempt to practice, even those who believe in it, and believe that it is an Apostolic command of James to be "justified by men" through works will give no one a break for such works! So it is literally impossible to please men!

Here is my deal with you: I will admit that I misunderstood you believing that your were endorsing "assurance by works" and that you meant "assurance of Salvation by works". Then if I can be so bold as to ask, let me then ask you to refrain from interpreting everything I write from now on in the context of attempting to respond or refute what you write. I promise and vow that, every time I have to respond to anything you will say, to be as direct as possible and giving all evidence that I am responding to you, so there will be no doubt as to whether I am responding or refuting you or not?

How is that for a brotherly deal?

I hope all is well with you and yours and pray that there will be no vestige of any animosity between us because of this disagreement and/or misunderstanding.

Sincerely in Christ!

Milt

[Brandan Kraft]

Brandon, yet again you have shown that you are attacking a straw man as has been pointed out before. No one on this thread, NO ONE, has presented any form of conditionalism. Run your cursor over that word and you will see that even your definition (which I agree with) doesn’t even come close to resembling the views presented thus far. What we have been discussing is the RESULT of our Salvation not the cause.

Conditional time salvation as taught by the primitive baptists teaches that eternal salvation is entirely by Christ Alone from eternity but that salvation in time (our lifetimes) - or the coming and CONTINUALLY KNOWING that we are saved is by faith + works.

[beloved57]

Hi Milt, I have been asking the question what does Paul mean in your opinion when he says in titus 3: 8

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

First explain what paul means by ( it`s a faithful saying)

second, Who are they which believed in God ?

Third, What is it to maintain good works ?

fourth How or why according to paul is this profitable to men ?

Fifth and lastly, Are men here to be understood as christians or men in general ?

Would you be so kind to answer my questions please ?

[Brandan Kraft]

Conditionalism is more than just basing eternal salvation on something we do. Conditionalism is also coming to know who Christ and knowing that we are HIS is by works.

Kyle disagrees with me on this - but faith IS assurance.

2 Cor 11:17, (KJV), That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.

Heb 3:14, (KJV), For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 11:1, (KJV), Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (or in other words - FAITH IS THE ASSURANCE of things HAVING BEEN HOPED)

http://www.prca.org/standard_bearer/....htm#Editorial:

Faith is assurance.

Faith is assurance of personal salvation.

Faith is assurance that the one who, from the heart, believes the gospel is saved now, has been saved from eternity in the decree of election, and will be preserved unto everlasting salvation.

Faith is absolute certainty of personal salvation, the only kind of certainty that is certain. A certainty that is not absolutely certain is, in fact, uncertainty, that is, doubt. Such “certainty” is worthless.

Assurance belongs to the essence, or very nature, of faith. Assurance is what faith is.

That assurance belongs to faith’s nature is the fundamental truth about assurance. Where this is preached, as an important aspect of the gospel, the congregation will be blessed with assurance, young and old, weak and strong.

Where preachers deny that faith is assurance, congregations will be full of doubters—doubters who profess to believe the gospel. Many who profess to believe the gospel will live and die in the terror that they may be lost and damned. This is both a dreadful condition and an insult to the gospel.

In addition, the worship, the preaching, the doctrine, and the Christian life of the members will be adapted to the prevailing doubt in the congregation. Worship will become a merely formal seeking after God, for doubters can neither pray, nor sing, nor read Scripture rightly, nor hear preaching properly, nor use the sacraments, nor, for that matter, even give in a God-glorifying way. Preaching in the church of Christ will become an offering of Christ to the doubters, who are regarded, with some right, as unconverted. Or it will be a beating down of the miserable doubters even further. The church’s doctrine will emphasize the doubting sinner and his experience, rather than God and His glorious salvation. The life of the many doubting members of the congregation will be an anxious introspection, whether they may find some sign of salvation, and a strenuous exertion to perform good works, to prove to themselves that they are saved.

Make no mistake: that faith is assurance is a fundamental truth. It is fundamental, not only for the certainty of salvation of all God’s believing people, but also for the gospel, the church, and the Christian life. This stands in the nature of the case. The truth that assurance belongs to the nature of faith is the truth about faith. And faith is the bond of union with Christ, the means of salvation, and the source of all Christian life, activity, and experience.

To go wrong with regard to faith is to ruin everything.

The issue is not whether a believer can doubt. The issue is not whether the odd believer can doubt for a long time. The issue is not even whether all believers struggle with doubt on occasion.

But the issue is whether faith is assurance and, with this, whether assurance is normal in every believer from the moment he first believes and whether the heavenly Father wills the assurance of all His children.

Q. 21 of the Heidelberg Catechism is the definitive statement on the issue, whether assurance belongs to the essence of faith or is merely the well-being of faith.

On all who subscribe the “Three Forms of Unity” as their creeds, Q. 21 is binding. No Reformed preacher may deny that assurance belongs to the nature of faith. No Reformed member may challenge this, perhaps because he is attracted, foolishly, to the Puritan teaching denying that assurance is of the essence of faith. No Reformed church may countenance any teaching to the contrary.

No one who has the Catechism as his confession may explain Q. 21 away by saying that its teaching is theoretical and ideal (that is, that assurance belongs to the faith only of God’s favored few, and then only after many years of doubt). Q. 21 describes the actual, living, breathing, knowing, trusting faith of every one to whom God gives faith.

No one who has the Catechism as his confession may explain Q. 21 away by saying that its teaching is theoretical and ideal (that is, that assurance belongs to the faith only of God’s favored few, and then only after many years of doubt). Q. 21 describes the actual, living, breathing, knowing, trusting faith of every one to whom God gives faith.

Faith is not lack of assurance, that is, doubt. It is not 90% lack of assurance, that is, doubt. It is not 1/100th% lack of assurance, that is, doubt. Faith is certainty. It is absolute certainty. It is as certain as is the promise of God upon which faith depends. It is as certain as is the Holy Spirit who works the assurance.

The certainty of faith is the truth and faithfulness of the gracious God revealed in the gospel of the cross of Jesus Christ. Therefore, great sinners, with vile natures, utterly unworthy of the least of God’s blessings, who believe are absolutely certain of their justification and salvation. Therefore also, it is no mark of piety to doubt one’s salvation, “because I am such a great sinner.” On the contrary, such doubt is wicked unbelief and sinful discounting of the infinite worth and value of the death of the Son of God.

Every other description of faith in the “Three Forms of Unity” agrees with Q. 21, that faith is assurance. There are innumerable other descriptions of faith, implicit as well as explicit. Among the explicit descriptions of faith as assurance is the well-known Q. 1 of the Catechism, explained earlier in this series on assurance; Article 20 of the Belgic Confession, which has every believer confidently declaring that God laid “our” iniquities upon Christ, poured forth His mercy and goodness on “us,” gave His Son unto death for “us,” and raised Christ for “our” justification, so that “we” might obtain immortality and life eternal; and the Canons, 5/11, which confesses “the full assurance of faith” with reference to perseverance. The Canons acknowledge here that the believer is not “always sensible” of this full assurance. But “full assurance” belongs to faith.

[GraceAmbassador]

Hi Milt, I have been asking the question what does Paul mean in your opinion when he says in titus 3: 8

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

First explain what paul means by ( it`s a faithful saying)

second, Who are they which believed in God ?

Third, What is it to maintain good works ?

fourth How or why according to paul is this profitable to men ?


Fifth and lastly, Are men here to be understood as christians or men in general ?

Would you be so kind to answer my questions please ?

First:
Paul usually uses the expression "faithful saying" because he was quoting something that was not necessarily in the O.T. but it was something that was a common saying among believers; something that it was good to be said and complied with. Another example is "This is a faithful saying: One who desires the office of a bishop, desires a good thing". It is indeed a faithful saying what Paul vows to constantly state.

Second:

Paul assumes that they believed in God or else they would not be elegible to receive the Grace of Good works. It speaks of the elect. The elect is expected to display some type of difference than the world. It does not save, but it helps our testimony. It does not give assurance, but it is a trait where the Children of a Good Father, inherit the characteristic of the Good Father. That is why it is better that Christians would not get drunk, gamble, support the democrats and others...

Third:

It is exactly what he said: To maintain good works; to continue in them. He said more in another place: Be not weary of doing good. This is a loaded and unecessary question because whether I believe that we should maintain good works here is NOT IN QUESTON, at least it should not be;once and for all, please, try to grasp on it. I believe that we all are benefited from practcing good works, including but not limited to accepting one's good intentions in explaining their position. I extended this type of good work for you a few times already but to no avail. Perhaps you are not so sure that "good works" justify a man before God and other men. Paul teaches that we should be good to those of the hosehold of faith; Paul also say that we should talk to each other in Psalms and hymns making a sweet melody in our hearts to God. I hope you practice all external manifestations that Paul commands lest you are selective in it, thus showing that you pick only what is convenient to you. Paul says that we should be kind one to another; Paul says that we should not give room to the devil; Paul says that the sun should not set before we placate our wrath before our Brother. It is profitable for a man to maintain these good works and a few others that I have not mentioned yet.

Forth:

Because IT IS PROFITABLE TO MEN! What else could it mean? It is profitable for you and me to practice good works. Do you propose that it would not be profitable to practice good works? What kind of question is that?

Fifth:

NO. I do not espouse that at all. Most Americans and some Muslims think that everyone that was born in American is a Christian. The RCC thinks they're Christians (they do practice a lot of good works; much more than we "protestants"). Christians are recognized by the work the Holy Spirit exacts in their lives, which manifest in all sorts of good works. But good works is not the credential of a Christian. If you believe "good works" is the credential, or what makes a Christian, your question is self defeating and makes no sense and has no point.

I hope my I did extend my kindness to you as requested; I hope, but I expect that my kindness will ensue more suspicion of my ministry, my position and what I am. Again, my kindness or a good work will not and cannot satisfy those who believe in such a thing as good works as justification before men.

I don't know about you, but the biggest hypocrites I have ever met are those who demand works from everybody else because they believe James commands us to be justified before men and God by works. Then someone else practices these works, and those hypocrites whoare the beneficiary of those good works, all of a sudden, such works justify no one in their eyes... they demand more and more and there is no satisfaction; they are insatiable!

Paul had a chance to say: Now, the thing that I said about justification by faith alone, please, disregard. I was tired and my thorn in the flesh was hurting and driving nuts. It is a good saying, it is profitable for you to maintain good works because this is an addition to being justified before God. You must be justified before God and men. Doesn't strike you that he did not say any of that right when he had the opportunity and the issue was "maintaining good works"?

You cannot trap me brother. Try harder! (Sorry to return suspicion of my position with suspicion of your intentions in these line of questioning).

Milt

[jmgipson]

This has been weighing heavy on my mind trying to determine what is tradition in my life and what is not. I have been searching and studying because I know my flesh would like to say I am right and not wrong. I have not come to that conclusion totally but I think I am seeing some thinking that I may have incorrect. What has lead me to this is part of the paper I am writing that stopped me in my tracks and made wonder about the term assurance and what I have thought I new about it. So here goes. I still need to think about all these verses and how I am misunderstanding. My trouble is in the bold underlined area. Is this the position you (Brandan, Bob, Milt ) are speaking of?

Principles for Assurance
Principle 1: We need to draw our assurance from faith in the facts of Scripture and not from our feelings. Our faith and thus our assurance must stand on the sure promises of the Bible rather than on our feelings. The biblical order is: FACTS ——>FAITH ——>FEELINGS. Feelings are the responders of the soul or heart. They are to follow and respond to our understanding of Scripture, but they are never a safe guide to what we should believe or of the state of our salvation. This leads to the next point.
Principle 2: We need to draw our assurance from faith in the facts of Scripture and not from our works. Works or the biblical changes that occur in our lives as a result of the grace of God can confirm the reality of our life with God. We must be ever so careful, however, in making such subjective ground the basis of our assurance, for when a believer is out of fellowship he or she can have the appearance of an unbeliever especially if the condition lasts for any length of time.
1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to babes in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?
If we depend on works or obedient living to prove our salvation then we are faced with the following dilemma: If we are living obediently now (the supposed proof of salvation), the possibility exists that could change in the future. If later on we cease to live obediently, then that would prove (based on the above premise) that we are not now true Christians in spite of our obedient lifestyle. So present obedience can never really prove our Christianity and thus, we could never have assurance.
Post-generation performance is not a trustworthy basis for assurance of salvation. Scripture clearly warns against basing assurance or true relationship with God on performance. Note Matthew 7:13-23, for an example. The false prophets typically come in sheep’s clothing. Catch that—they look good! They do all the right things. They appear to be ‘model Christians,’ pillars of the church. (Fruit here refers not to the behavior of these people but to their teaching—see Matt. 12:31-37.) But they’ve never trusted Christ; they have no vital relationship with Him (v 23). Instead, at the bottom line, they are trusting in themselves (v 22). Their performance looks good. In fact it leads them to conclude that they are right with God. And yet they are deceived. They learn too late that assurance of salvation cannot properly be based on performance.10
Proper Christian living should never be the fundamental grounds for assurance of salvation. Rather, assurance of salvation which should rest in the merit and sufficiency of the Savior and the believer’s new life in Christ, must be the fundamental basis for proper Christian living.
Colossians 3:1-4 If then you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
As John shows in 1 John 1:6-7, Christlike behavior is an evidence of genuine fellowship and that a person is truly walking with the Lord in the light.
1 John 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
However, proper Christian living is not necessarily an evidence of genuine relationship because when believers are out of fellowship for any length of time they will manifest the works of the flesh and may look very much like an unbeliever. As mentioned earlier, the apostle Paul speaks of this when he described carnal Christians as “mere men” in 1 Corinthians 3:3-4.
3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?
To walk like a mere man is to walk like those who do not know the Savior. The apostle was not questioning or denying the fact of their salvation. He affirmed his conviction of their salvation, but they were walking according to the flesh rather than according to the Spirit of God. This made them behave so they looked like natural men, like men who were without the saving power of Christ, when in reality they were in Christ with the Spirit indwelling them.
1 Corinthians 1:2-9 to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 4 I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to babes in Christ.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
Sometimes a passage like 2 Corinthians 13:5 is used to support the necessity of examining our works to prove our salvation. This is unfortunate because this is mere proof-texting and misses the context and the actual meaning and purpose of this passage in the argument of Paul in 2 Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
MacArthur is an illustration of this. He writes: “Doubts about one’s salvation are not wrong so long as they are not nursed and allowed to become an obsession. Scripture encourages self-examination. Doubts must be confronted and dealt with honestly and biblically.” Then, after quoting 2 Corinthians 13:5 he concludes, “That admonition is largely ignored—and often explained away—in the contemporary church.”11
But is this the correct interpretation of this passage? Is Paul calling these believers to examine themselves for the purpose of assurance of salvation? The context says no! The following are some reasons for this position:
(1) Again, as in 1 Corinthians, Paul affirmed his conviction they were saved. He does not question their salvation for a moment as is clear from the passages mentioned above.
(2) Even if Paul were telling them to examine themselves for assurance, he does not tell them to examine their works for assurance. In light of the plain teaching of Scripture, if anything needed to be examined, it would be the object of their faith. Had they truly trusted in Christ rather than in some system of works?
(3) He does tell them to examine themselves, but he had another purpose in mind according to the context of verses 3-7. Some were questioning the validity of the ministry of the apostle because of the influence of certain false teachers. Compare 2 Corinthians 11:1-12:21 where the apostle defends his ministry against their accusations. They were demanding proof in verse 3 that Christ was speaking through Paul. In verse 5 Paul shows them that the proof they were looking for was in themselves because he had been their father in the faith.
1 Corinthians 4:15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
The sure way to prove Paul’s ministry was to examine their own faith since their belief in the genuineness of their faith carried with it the proof of the genuineness of Paul’s ministry as a spokesman for Christ. Did they know the Savior? Yes. How did they come to know the Savior? Through Paul’s ministry. He did not believe they were counterfeit and knew they were unlikely to come to a different conclusion about their faith which only proved he too passed the test. This is the point of 2 Corinthians 13:6, “But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.”
Remember that the basis God gives us for assurance of salvation is His record or witness to us as clearly declared in 1 John 5:11-13:
11 And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

By: J. Hampton Keathley, III , Th.M. (Bible.org)

[beloved57]

First:
Paul usually uses the expression "faithful saying" because he was quoting something that was not necessarily in the O.T. but it was something that was a common saying among believers; something that it was good to be said and complied with. Another example is "This is a faithful saying: One who desires the office of a bishop, desires a good thing". It is indeed a faithful saying what Paul vows to constantly state.

Second:

Paul assumes that they believed in God or else they would not be elegible to receive the Grace of Good works. It speaks of the elect. The elect is expected to display some type of difference than the world. It does not save, but it helps our testimony. It does not give assurance, but it is a trait where the Children of a Good Father, inherit the characteristic of the Good Father. That is why it is better that Christians would not get drunk, gamble, support the democrats and others...

Third:

It is exactly what he said: To maintain good works; to continue in them. He said more in another place: Be not weary of doing good. This is a loaded and unecessary question because whether I believe that we should maintain good works here is NOT IN QUESTON, at least it should not be;once and for all, please, try to grasp on it. I believe that we all are benefited from practcing good works, including but not limited to accepting one's good intentions in explaining their position. I extended this type of good work for you a few times already but to no avail. Perhaps you are not so sure that "good works" justify a man before God and other men. Paul teaches that we should be good to those of the hosehold of faith; Paul also say that we should talk to each other in Psalms and hymns making a sweet melody in our hearts to God. I hope you practice all external manifestations that Paul commands lest you are selective in it, thus showing that you pick only what is convenient to you. Paul says that we should be kind one to another; Paul says that we should not give room to the devil; Paul says that the sun should not set before we placate our wrath before our Brother. It is profitable for a man to maintain these good works and a few others that I have not mentioned yet.

Forth:

Because IT IS PROFITABLE TO MEN! What else could it mean? It is profitable for you and me to practice good works. Do you propose that it would not be profitable to practice good works? What kind of question is that?

Fifth:

NO. I do not espouse that at all. Most Americans and some Muslims think that everyone that was born in American is a Christian. The RCC thinks they're Christians (they do practice a lot of good works; much more than we "protestants"). Christians are recognized by the work the Holy Spirit exacts in their lives, which manifest in all sorts of good works. But good works is not the credential of a Christian. If you believe "good works" is the credential, or what makes a Christian, your question is self defeating and makes no sense and has no point.

I hope my I did extend my kindness to you as requested; I hope, but I expect that my kindness will ensue more suspicion of my ministry, my position and what I am. Again, my kindness or a good work will not and cannot satisfy those who believe in such a thing as good works as justification before men.

I don't know about you, but the biggest hypocrites I have ever met are those who demand works from everybody else because they believe James commands us to be justified before men and God by works. Then someone else practices these works, and those hypocrites whoare the beneficiary of those good works, all of a sudden, such works justify no one in their eyes... they demand more and more and there is no satisfaction; they are insatiable!

Paul had a chance to say: Now, the thing that I said about justification by faith alone, please, disregard. I was tired and my thorn in the flesh was hurting and driving nuts. It is a good saying, it is profitable for you to maintain good works because this is an addition to being justified before God. You must be justified before God and men. Doesn't strike you that he did not say any of that right when he had the opportunity and the issue was "maintaining good works"?

You cannot trap me brother. Try harder! (Sorry to return suspicion of my position with suspicion of your intentions in these line of questioning).

Milt

Wow, Thanks Milt...First, I was just asking for someone to explain pauls meaning of Good works in these verses, Don`t be so denfensive and condeming of me. Every answer you gave you added codemnation to me, for what? I not only asked you the question, I asked everyone on the forum if you noticed my previous post. Those who reject James because of his mention of good works and do not reject paul of his mention of good works is inconsistent. Some of you say that good works means nothing before men and paul insists that it does. You seem to forget that the same Holy spirit that inspired paul inspired james. You also have contradicted yourself by saying that good works are profitable before men. if you carefully examine what you have just written you are unstable in what you believe about good works. your own words expose you.
you say in your response that good works don`t save but it helps their (elect) testimony, your right I agree, can you please point out when I or any of the rest who disagree said or insuiated that good works saves us!
That is what James is saying, James said as regards salvation that we (the elect were brought forth by the word of truth by Gods will) how is he then saying salvation by works? please give me a break...

you say that the elect suppose to show some kinda difference than the world. So does james see 4:1-4

Brandon may have some issues with what you are saying brother...

Good works being the credentials of a christian, did you see me say that ? stop inferring brother thats dishonest and devilish. when you do that you sew a seed in the minds of others as though you read something I wrote that gave that impression !

I don`t know if you extended kindness to me by answering my post because you condemn me for asking...you say I was trying to trap you, another slander and misrepresentation..

None of my qestions were loaded, in fact thy were all based on the word of God titus 3:8...

You say good works help our testimony, I agree...James does too..

Well , you said that good works do not save, you keep saying that before each comment, that shows you are worried about being percieved the wrong way, brother for the most part most folks on this forum know and understand that good works don`t save. James does not believe that as well..

acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. if you ask me James is a high grace predestinarian with a statement like that..

and don`t go to James when he said man is not justifed by faith only, because what he means as you have admitted ( testimony) the word justify =

to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

James is saying as paul is in titus 3:8 that works evince, exhibit ,to show that one is righteous...thats the justification he`s speaking about in that context to those recipients...

Now if you already believed this as you have stated in your post just now, then you and I are in agreement for the most part, the only difference is I believe James is inspired as well as pauls writings and you don`t, but they say the same thing...

[MCoving]

Okay so I have a alot to say.. and it pertains to other peoples comments only because they got me thinking.. not trying to single out anyone, and also to note that I may have jumped around alot before but that was only because I was listening to everyone and trying to understand what my thoughts were. So here they are: I believe in assurance by grace alone and here is why...

However the lack of works with the knowledge that the Christian is foreordained to perform them should cause the individual to question if the work of Christ has been applied to them by the Holy Spirit.
So do I look to works for assurance? No, but I do think that a lack of works in the believer’s experience should cause him/her to question whether the work of Christ has been applied to them through the work of the Holy Spirit, and they should turn to Christ and seek repentance for their disobedience.
Are you committing adultery, fornication, witchcraft or homosexuality? If so, unless you are granted repentance you have no reason to believe that Christ merits have been applied to you.
Do you turn away brothers or sisters that are in need? If so, unless you are granted repentance you have no reason to believe that Christ merits have been applied to you.

So one doesnt look to works for assurance yet you say that one questions themselves by a lack of Gods work in them? Who are we to question God about the amount of good works He has merited to one? And isn't it that even a nonbeliever partakes in the good works that God has talked of in Scripture? And so if one year I see alot of works from God in me then I'd have more assurance? But in another year I only see a few works of God then I have barely any assurance? And isn't God working in everything so why do we concentrate on the good works? He brings the bad as well. If there is no good works in a year or so does that mean one is not regenerated?
That would make no sense.. because one should have full assurance that they are saved by Gods grace. That assurance is by faith alone. And yes faith is a work of God.. but it is by that alone.. not a bunch of other good works that God does in me. Because again who am I to question God about when He decides to do good works in me? And how much or how little? I just dont see that as humans.. and depraved people that we can even begin to say assurance is by works because that is always changing. And as humans how are we to know every good work that God does in us or doesn't do? So Gods work of grace and faith in us, His work in saving us by grace is the foundation of assurance.. is my assurance, is the rock which I stand upon!

Assurance is not justification. Assurance is the Holy Spirit using faith (growth in knowledge of doctrine and truth) AND good works of His own production to continually ASSURE us that our faith is not dead and that our regeneration is real, for true faith is not alone and true regeneration is accompanied by good works.

"good works of His own production to continually assure us that our faith is not dead and that our refegeration is real". So say I go a month without seeing Gods good works in me.. I just dont see them for whatever reasons.. so I then according to you would think that my faith is dead and that my regeneration wasn't real?!! OH MY! If I lived by assurance in Gods faith and good works I would be a mess! Where would the assurance be? Because I know that I am not always walking in the spirit.. I know that I am not always showing kindness.. I know I fail.. and Gods grace is sufficient. So who am I to judge my assurance by the amount of Gods work in me?

See its that amount again.. its that very thing that made me sick to my stomach when I was in the free will Baptist church. A high amount of good works from God in a person showed them close to God, showed people that they were something else.. and a low amount of good works from God in a person showed that they were not close to God, that they were nothing.. weak little babies in the Lord.

And CONTINUALLY looking for assurance? Man where is the assurance in that if it can change? I'd rather rest in Gods grace.. I'd rather know that I am fully assured that I am saved and regenerated because of Gods work of grace and faith in my life!! AND THAT ALONE!!!

All believers are foreordained to good works (those that God deems as good), none of us deny that. The experience and performance of such works might indeed give us a sense of confidence, however, we should not rely on such confidence to be assured of justification.

Amen! Yeah it could give confidence.. but relying on that as our assurance is crap! Because it can change.. one day I may see a lot of good works and another day not. So that other day would I begin to question my assurance as a daughter of God? No way! Here's some wonderful verses:

Ephesians 1:12-14
12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to theredemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Wow now this verse brings me assurance! I was sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. Why was I sealed? Because of the gospel of salvation.. because of grace. So my assurance is grace! 'Cause this verse tells me that after listening to Truth, gospel of salvation, believing it.. so believing that salvation is not conditioned upon man.. and Christs death, etc. (and of course all of this is from God) then one is sealed! So I have assurance in this.. grace. And my assurance isn't changing!

Romans 11:20
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

stand.. solid ground.. assurance is by faith.. not continual works of God but a work of God.. faith.

Matthew 9:22
But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.

Even here what did Jesus give credit to? Gods work in making her well? Or faith? Would her assurance be in the good work that was performed by Jesus or in faith? My guess is faith.. She wouldn't discredit the work of God by any means but the assurance is faith.

Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, " BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

How is one to live? By faith. How is one to live in assurance? By faith. Are we to live in fear of our assurance depending on the amount of good works God has granted.. or that we even see? Nope! I wouldn't want to be worried that my assurance could change!

Romans 4:16
16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with (U)grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to (V)all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to (W)those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is (X)the father of us all,

What is my guarantee? Faith. What is my assurance? Faith.

That's all.. its pretty plain and simple and I dont understand why everyone is complicating things? I am still reading though because I also believe in Gods progressive revelation.. that maybe God hasn't revealed His truths in this to me fully or maybe He hasn't to others. But from my study of Scripture.. from what God has shown me so far and the experience in my life that God has brought me through.. I can only believe in one thing as my assurance and that is faith. The gift of grace and faith that God gave to me.. the revealing of His Truth and believing in salvation not conditioned by men. That is by assurance.. grace, faith. Nothing else 'cause my solid rock is Christ and works of God and sin is always changing in me.. there's no firm foundation in that. As my other posts have stated faith is the foundation.. and the works of God is the building.. so my assurance isn't in the walls!! But in the foundation!!

For His Glory,
Mary

[beloved57]

Okay so I have a alot to say.. and it pertains to other peoples comments only because they got me thinking.. not trying to single out anyone, and also to note that I may have jumped around alot before but that was only because I was listening to everyone and trying to understand what my thoughts were. So here they are: I believe in assurance by grace alone and here is why...




So one doesnt look to works for assurance yet you say that one questions themselves by a lack of Gods work in them? Who are we to question God about the amount of good works He has merited to one? And isn't it that even a nonbeliever partakes in the good works that God has talked of in Scripture? And so if one year I see alot of works from God in me then I'd have more assurance? But in another year I only see a few works of God then I have barely any assurance? And isn't God working in everything so why do we concentrate on the good works? He brings the bad as well. If there is no good works in a year or so does that mean one is not regenerated?
That would make no sense.. because one should have full assurance that they are saved by Gods grace. That assurance is by faith alone. And yes faith is a work of God.. but it is by that alone.. not a bunch of other good works that God does in me. Because again who am I to question God about when He decides to do good works in me? And how much or how little? I just dont see that as humans.. and depraved people that we can even begin to say assurance is by works because that is always changing. And as humans how are we to know every good work that God does in us or doesn't do? So Gods work of grace and faith in us, His work in saving us by grace is the foundation of assurance.. is my assurance, is the rock which I stand upon!



"good works of His own production to continually assure us that our faith is not dead and that our refegeration is real". So say I go a month without seeing Gods good works in me.. I just dont see them for whatever reasons.. so I then according to you would think that my faith is dead and that my regeneration wasn't real?!! OH MY! If I lived by assurance in Gods faith and good works I would be a mess! Where would the assurance be? Because I know that I am not always walking in the spirit.. I know that I am not always showing kindness.. I know I fail.. and Gods grace is sufficient. So who am I to judge my assurance by the amount of Gods work in me?

See its that amount again.. its that very thing that made me sick to my stomach when I was in the free will Baptist church. A high amount of good works from God in a person showed them close to God, showed people that they were something else.. and a low amount of good works from God in a person showed that they were not close to God, that they were nothing.. weak little babies in the Lord.

And CONTINUALLY looking for assurance? Man where is the assurance in that if it can change? I'd rather rest in Gods grace.. I'd rather know that I am fully assured that I am saved and regenerated because of Gods work of grace and faith in my life!! AND THAT ALONE!!!



Amen! Yeah it could give confidence.. but relying on that as our assurance is crap! Because it can change.. one day I may see a lot of good works and another day not. So that other day would I begin to question my assurance as a daughter of God? No way! Here's some wonderful verses:

Ephesians 1:12-14
12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to theredemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Wow now this verse brings me assurance! I was sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. Why was I sealed? Because of the gospel of salvation.. because of grace. So my assurance is grace! 'Cause this verse tells me that after listening to Truth, gospel of salvation, believing it.. so believing that salvation is not conditioned upon man.. and Christs death, etc. (and of course all of this is from God) then one is sealed! So I have assurance in this.. grace. And my assurance isn't changing!

Romans 11:20
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

stand.. solid ground.. assurance is by faith.. not continual works of God but a work of God.. faith.

Matthew 9:22
But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.

Even here what did Jesus give credit to? Gods work in making her well? Or faith? Would her assurance be in the good work that was performed by Jesus or in faith? My guess is faith.. She wouldn't discredit the work of God by any means but the assurance is faith.

Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, " BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

How is one to live? By faith. How is one to live in assurance? By faith. Are we to live in fear of our assurance depending on the amount of good works God has granted.. or that we even see? Nope! I wouldn't want to be worried that my assurance could change!

Romans 4:16
16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with (U)grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to (V)all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to (W)those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is (X)the father of us all,

What is my guarantee? Faith. What is my assurance? Faith.

That's all.. its pretty plain and simple and I dont understand why everyone is complicating things? I am still reading though because I also believe in Gods progressive revelation.. that maybe God hasn't revealed His truths in this to me fully or maybe He hasn't to others. But from my study of Scripture.. from what God has shown me so far and the experience in my life that God has brought me through.. I can only believe in one thing as my assurance and that is faith. The gift of grace and faith that God gave to me.. the revealing of His Truth and believing in salvation not conditioned by men. That is by assurance.. grace, faith. Nothing else 'cause my solid rock is Christ and works of God and sin is always changing in me.. there's no firm foundation in that. As my other posts have stated faith is the foundation.. and the works of God is the building.. so my assurance isn't in the walls!! But in the foundation!!

For His Glory,
Mary

Excellent post Mary, thank you...

[Mrs. Gill]

More later Michael, and others when time permits
but here is a short question that no one seems to want to answer
Just what are good works, and how much???? I mean, I don't see me taking in orphans like James states?? uh??? anyone? someone give me a list...
and by the way Michael, I understand your posts, what you are saying, but think of this....you want to know if I feel guilty about arguing with my husband or do I continue in rebellion....I guess you would judge me based on this....well, You are right in that I try to repent, and not argue, but you know what? ?That may take awhile-just ask Brandan-haha and other times I am sure I am in rebellion in regard to some argument we may have but thank goodness I don't look to that..... well, a more comprehensive post when time permits

[beloved57]

More later Michael, and others when time permits
but here is a short question that no one seems to want to answer
Just what are good works, and how much???? I mean, I don't see me taking in orphans like James states?? uh??? anyone? someone give me a list...
and by the way Michael, I understand your posts, what you are saying, but think of this....you want to know if I feel guilty about arguing with my husband or do I continue in rebellion....I guess you would judge me based on this....well, You are right in that I try to repent, and not argue, but you know what? ?That may take awhile-just ask Brandan-haha and other times I am sure I am in rebellion in regard to some argument we may have but thank goodness I don't look to that..... well, a more comprehensive post when time permits

Hi Mrs Gill, glad you are joining in..to answer your question, what is Good works, I believe the elect for the most part may not ever know in this life, because God himself I believe keeps us focus on Christ, even when Good works fail us, our salvation is never in doubt, In fact, it`s in times of my most inconsistent spiritual behaviour, so to say, That I still percieve Gods unfailing covenant love towards me, and I know, it`s only because christ is my all in all. Even the sheep who are commended for their Good works in matt 25 by christ himself :

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

So it appears that the elect had done many good deeds but it also appears that they had not focused on them, for they asked when ?

My contention is not so much as good works contributing to salvation or even the assurance of salvation, but why are those who believe james is not part of scripture because he mentions ones faith being vindicated by works and not have the same issue with paul who says the same exact thing in titus 3: 8

8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men

I see no difference in pauls statement about good works vindicating the elect ( testimony wise) and James in 2 :Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Both are saying the same thing, both are inspired by God.....Thats my point...

[ray kikkert]

What is my guarantee? Faith. What is my assurance? Faith.

That's all.. its pretty plain and simple and I dont understand why everyone is complicating things? I am still reading though because I also believe in Gods progressive revelation.. that maybe God hasn't revealed His truths in this to me fully or maybe He hasn't to others. But from my study of Scripture.. from what God has shown me so far and the experience in my life that God has brought me through.. I can only believe in one thing as my assurance and that is faith. The gift of grace and faith that God gave to me.. the revealing of His Truth and believing in salvation not conditioned by men. That is by assurance.. grace, faith. Nothing else 'cause my solid rock is Christ and works of God and sin is always changing in me.. there's no firm foundation in that. As my other posts have stated faith is the foundation.. and the works of God is the building.. so my assurance isn't in the walls!! But in the foundation!!

For His Glory,
Mary

I am shaking my head here. Eileen noticed it, others have.... I have...... there is alot of posting and folks stating the same things. I am learning though.... that what is all comes down to is this simple statement.

Some maintain that the book of James is NOT part of the Gospel and some maintain that it IS part of the Gospel. That is the kikker.

That is how this thread got started in the 1st place....it was over this.

It is in the nature of this difference...that faith, works, assurance, grace are being discussed.

So to be fair to all here whatever side they fall on with regards to the book of James.......... I humbly propose that we get 2 people from either side of this underlying contention to draw up a simple list with simple statements regarding all we have discussed. Then all of us can have a go at the list.

Most of the same people have been doing much of the same posting ...so all then can choose who from either side can draw up the list and statements.

the doctrines of faith, works, assurance, grace..or whatever other doctrines will be the basis. After all, it ought not to be because of entrapment... it isn't about James the vessel...it isn't about Paul the vessel....it ought to be about the Gospel of Christ.

This is a proposal.....what say ye....is it fair or is it not worth it??


night , night

[Whammer]

Hi Mrs Gill, glad you are joining in..to answer your question, what is Good works, I believe the elect for the most part may not ever know in this life, because God himself I believe keeps us focus on Christ, even when Good works fail us, our salvation is never in doubt, In fact, it`s in times of my most inconsistent spiritual behaviour, so to say, That I still percieve Gods unfailing covenant love towards me, and I know, it`s only because christ is my all in all. Even the sheep who are commended for their Good works in matt 25 by christ himself :

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

So it appears that the elect had done many good deeds but it also appears that they had not focused on them, for they asked when ?

My contention is not so much as good works contributing to salvation or even the assurance of salvation, but why are those who believe james is not part of scripture because he mentions ones faith being vindicated by works and not have the same issue with paul who says the same exact thing in titus 3: 8

8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men

I see no difference in pauls statement about good works vindicating the elect ( testimony wise) and James in 2 :Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Both are saying the same thing, both are inspired by God.....Thats my point...

Another excellent post

[GraceAmbassador]

Wow, Thanks Milt...First, I was just asking for someone to explain pauls meaning of Good works in these verses, Don`t be so denfensive and condeming of me. Every answer you gave you added codemnation to me, for what? I not only asked you the question, I asked everyone on the forum if you noticed my previous post. Those who reject James because of his mention of good works and do not reject paul of his mention of good works is inconsistent. Some of you say that good works means nothing before men and paul insists that it does. You seem to forget that the same Holy spirit that inspired paul inspired james. You also have contradicted yourself by saying that good works are profitable before men. if you carefully examine what you have just written you are unstable in what you believe about good works. your own words expose you.
you say in your response that good works don`t save but it helps their (elect) testimony, your right I agree, can you please point out when I or any of the rest who disagree said or insuiated that good works saves us!
That is what James is saying, James said as regards salvation that we (the elect were brought forth by the word of truth by Gods will) how is he then saying salvation by works? please give me a break...

you say that the elect suppose to show some kinda difference than the world. So does james see 4:1-4

Brandon may have some issues with what you are saying brother...

Good works being the credentials of a christian, did you see me say that ? stop inferring brother thats dishonest and devilish. when you do that you sew a seed in the minds of others as though you read something I wrote that gave that impression !

I don`t know if you extended kindness to me by answering my post because you condemn me for asking...you say I was trying to trap you, another slander and misrepresentation..

None of my qestions were loaded, in fact thy were all based on the word of God titus 3:8...

That is what James is saying, James said as regards salvation that we (the elect were brought forth by the word of truth by Gods will) how is he then saying salvation by works? please give me a break...

Well , you said that good works do not save, you keep saying that before each comment, that shows you are worried about being percieved the wrong way, brother for the most part most folks on this forum know and understand that good works don`t save. James does not believe that as well..

acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. if you ask me James is a high grace predestinarian with a statement like that..

and don`t go to James when he said man is not justifed by faith only, because what he means as you have admitted ( testimony) the word justify =

to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

James is saying as paul is in titus 3:8 that works evince, exhibit ,to show that one is righteous...thats the justification he`s speaking about in that context to those recipients...

Now if you already believed this as you have stated in your post just now, then you and I are in agreement for the most part, the only difference is I believe James is inspired as well as pauls writings and you don`t, but they say the same thing...

Okay brother! Let's say I am condemning you! But note some of the things you keep repeating: in blue

you are unstable in what you believe about good works. your own words expose you.

That's an personal attack on someone you do not even know... I wish you have some poor people in your backyard and you'd better show them your good works, because with these kind of attack you are not showing any to me...

Good works being the credentials of a christian, did you see me say that ? stop inferring brother thats dishonest and devilish. when you do that you sew a seed in the minds of others as though you read something I wrote that gave that impression !

I don't recall saying that that's what you were saying. This is your inference. You just showed again that you don't believe "good works".

I don`t know if you extended kindness to me by answering my post because you condemn me for asking...you say I was trying to trap you, another slander and misrepresentation..

Then, I am sorry, but I don't see any point in your line of questioning when I already had mentioned that "we have been made God's masterpiece (workmanship) to good works".

That is what James is saying, James said as regards salvation that we (the elect were brought forth by the word of truth by Gods will) how is he then saying salvation by works? please give me a break...

I disagree! This interpretation is the one shoved down our throats for ages. There must be a reason why some came from James (Galatians 2:11) separated themselves from the Gentiles... Who was teaching them?
May I disagree here and believe that whoever wrote that portion IS indeed speaking of "justification by works before God and men"?

Some of you say that good works means nothing before men and paul insists that it does

Please, quote correctly: It does not mean anything to justify us before God and men. This is what "some" that you name not, are saying.

Brandon may have some issues with what you are saying brother...

Although perhaps a few within the Forum and oustside of it voice their desire and are "stalking" for the day that Brandan and I will split, let me tell you that Brandan and I disagree in many issues. One of them is that I am a non cessassionist; also a few others where to some people I could be construed as a Fullerite because of my love for missions. Brandan and I don't have to agree on everything. But we do agree in Grace and Brandan has NO PROBLEM in what I am saying; rest assured!

Finally, the explanation that James is not:

A book dedicated to those of the "Diaspora", JEWS, THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE JEWS still not informed of the supremacy of Grace who still believed in the baby Ekklesia (okay I will take away the hifen) of the Synagogue, temple worshiping and the religious practice of caring for the poor, MUST be from someone who does not understand God's admnistration of His own Revelation (some deem me a dispensationalist for using such a term, but they have another thing coming from me...) and also have not read whom James, or whoever, addresses this book to!

A book that has contradictions such as the "tempation" and where they come from; justification by works, and that our prayer can change God's mind, is not reading the Book of James that I am reading. Take the origin of temptation for example: James says it does not come from God, Jesus says it comes from God. Oh, one might say, but James is speaking of the trials of our faith and not "temptation to sin". Great, then he contradicts once more Paul because Paul does say that God gives us trials with the exception that He also provides the escape. You can live with that? I can't! There must be a better explanation than what some theologians have given through the ages... I will not swallow them whole! Why James had to be explained through history with these kinds of lame theological treatises? Call me confused, it is okay now!

I am willing and able to live with people who will not "rightly divide the word of truth", but I hope I can do that and dissent from the rest of Christianity. I write these things here at great risk. I am scrutinized by everything I say... This is not "cheap" for me brother! But I refuse to accept explanations given for these "variances" at James. I don't go around in congregations attempting to debunk the book of James, but I don't preach about it; there is nothing to preach about there that I don't find in much better terms in other books. I mention every-now-and-then as a book of good moral standards as not discriminating the poor...

Paul NEVER said, never used, the God inspired word, "justification" or its synonyms to relate it with something we practice before men. James is indeed, by context, saying that works justify us before God. You can accept and believe what you want!

I want to start afresh in my Godly fellowship with anyone here who strongly disagree with me. Now that all of you, and you beloved Beloved 57, know my position, I want to extend to everyone the "right hand of fellowship" (I ain't telling you what the left is doing) and expect to find another one to shake it in brotherly love coming from everyone. I lament that this handshake will not be grounds for the "unity of faith" but may be a start.

Thanks!

Milt

[Brandan Kraft]

This has been weighing heavy on my mind trying to determine what is tradition in my life and what is not. I have been searching and studying because I know my flesh would like to say I am right and not wrong. I have not come to that conclusion totally but I think I am seeing some thinking that I may have incorrect. What has lead me to this is part of the paper I am writing that stopped me in my tracks and made wonder about the term assurance and what I have thought I new about it.

That article was very good. This will probably be my last post until Sunday evening - Mon. morning....

[beloved57]

Okay brother! Let's say I am condemning you! But note some of the things you keep repeating: in blue

you are unstable in what you believe about good works. your own words expose you.

That's an personal attack on someone you do not even know... I wish you have some poor people in your backyard and you'd better show them your good works, because with these kind of attack you are not showing any to me...

Good works being the credentials of a christian, did you see me say that ? stop inferring brother thats dishonest and devilish. when you do that you sew a seed in the minds of others as though you read something I wrote that gave that impression !

I don't recall saying that that's what you were saying. This is your inference. You just showed again that you don't believe "good works".

I don`t know if you extended kindness to me by answering my post because you condemn me for asking...you say I was trying to trap you, another slander and misrepresentation..

Then, I am sorry, but I don't see any point in your line of questioning when I already had mentioned that "we have been made God's masterpiece (workmanship) to good works".

That is what James is saying, James said as regards salvation that we (the elect were brought forth by the word of truth by Gods will) how is he then saying salvation by works? please give me a break...

I disagree! This interpretation is the one shoved down our throats for ages. There must be a reason why some came from James (Galatians 2:11) separated themselves from the Gentiles... Who was teaching them?
May I disagree here and believe that whoever wrote that portion IS indeed speaking of "justification by works before God and men"?

Some of you say that good works means nothing before men and paul insists that it does

Please, quote correctly: It does not mean anything to justify us before God and men. This is what "some" that you name not, are saying.

Brandon may have some issues with what you are saying brother...

Although perhaps a few within the Forum and oustside of it voice their desire and are "stalking" for the day that Brandan and I will split, let me tell you that Brandan and I disagree in many issues. One of them is that I am a non cessassionist; also a few others where to some people I could be construed as a Fullerite because of my love for missions. Brandan and I don't have to agree on everything. But we do agree in Grace and Brandan has NO PROBLEM in what I am saying; rest assured!

Finally, the explanation that James is not:

A book dedicated to those of the "Diaspora", JEWS, THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE JEWS still not informed of the supremacy of Grace who still believed in the baby Ekklesia (okay I will take away the hifen) of the Synagogue, temple worshiping and the religious practice of caring for the poor, MUST be from someone who does not understand God's admnistration of His own Revelation (some deem me a dispensationalist for using such a term, but they have another thing coming from me...) and also have not read whom James, or whoever, addresses this book to!

A book that has contradictions such as the "tempation" and where they come from; justification by works, and that our prayer can change God's mind, is not reading the Book of James that I am reading. Take the origin of temptation for example: James says it does not come from God, Jesus says it comes from God. Oh, one might say, but James is speaking of the trials of our faith and not "temptation to sin". Great, then he contradicts once more Paul because Paul does say that God gives us trials with the exception that He also provides the escape. You can live with that? I can't! There must be a better explanation than what some theologians have given through the ages... I will not swallow them whole! Why James had to be explained through history with these kinds of lame theological treatises? Call me confused, it is okay now!

I am willing and able to live with people who will not "rightly divide the word of truth", but I hope I can do that and dissent from the rest of Christianity. I write these things here at great risk. I am scrutinized by everything I say... This is not "cheap" for me brother! But I refuse to accept explanations given for these "variances" at James. I don't go around in congregations attempting to debunk the book of James, but I don't preach about it; there is nothing to preach about there that I don't find in much better terms in other books. I mention every-now-and-then as a book of good moral standards as not discriminating the poor...

Paul NEVER said, never used, the God inspired word, "justification" or its synonyms to relate it with something we practice before men. James is indeed, by context, saying that works justify us before God. You can accept and believe what you want!

I want to start afresh in my Godly fellowship with anyone here who strongly disagree with me. Now that all of you, and you beloved Beloved 57, know my position, I want to extend to everyone the "right hand of fellowship" (I ain't telling you what the left is doing) and expect to find another one to shake it in brotherly love coming from everyone. I lament that this handshake will not be grounds for the "unity of faith" but may be a start.

Thanks!

Milt

Thanks for your response.....

[Whammer]

I want to start afresh in my Godly fellowship with anyone here who strongly disagree with me. Now that all of you, and you beloved Beloved 57, know my position, I want to extend to everyone the "right hand of fellowship" (I ain't telling you what the left is doing) and expect to find another one to shake it in brotherly love coming from everyone. I lament that this handshake will not be grounds for the "unity of faith" but may be a start.

Thanks!

Milt

I dont strongly disagree with you, but I want to offer my right hand to yours brother, I am still learning and growing in grace, this forum is a great place of fellowship for me and my wife. When my stepson returns from school here in a couple months, I am going to get him a membership as well, we are going to spend some of the summer talking about things posted here at the forum. I want my family to be on this forum.

[Mickey]

Well I don’t have much else to say accept for a few parting words as this will be my last post.

It should come as no surprise to anyone here why Brandon, Bob and Milt simply do not see what scripture clearly states. You give them scripture to prove a point and they deny it’s the word of God.

Honestly, has anyone ever had a discussion with another believer and they were told that they can’t use certain scripture to support their view? LOL…I laugh because it is the stupidest thing I have ever heard! But this is Brandon’s forum and he makes the rules.

I once bought in to this rubbish but by the grace of God I was brought back into submission to the authority of scripture. I hope all of you here can see through the smoke. Brandon, Bob and Milt craftily cloak their deception with a so called loyalty to truth. Who’s truth? Their truth, if it doesn’t fall into their system of thought then it’s not true. If a verse contradicts THEIR understanding, it must not be God breathed.

I trust if anyone stays around here long enough they will see this to be true. Just ask Brandon how many people he has either banned or stripped them of their moderator status.

No doubt he will turn this on me and say that I deny the gospel like he does to everyone else that resists him, so if you want to know what gospel I believe, my brief statement of faith is contained in my profile.

Brandon, when you go down to MS, ask them what they think of your view of James, after all, you don’t fear men right, you’re a bulldog. So why would you hide this from them, see what they think.

Brandon, you can consider this a rebuke in love so I will not apologize for anything I have said, I stand by it. Repent of your denial of the word of God, suck up your pride and submit to the word of God as your absolute authority. Your boast to me about being a ‘bulldog’ will snow ball leading ultimately to your fall should God let you continue down this path.

I am truly concerned about you and those who would possibly consider sharing your view of the denial of scripture. What a fool I was to turn from the authority of scripture to my own understanding.

[Brandan Kraft]

This post was obviously written in bitterness. I don't accept this letter Michael. I have confidence that you will return to us, apologize, and consider fellowshipping with us again. I do not see how you denied the Gospel. Although, I must admit - you have just been very rude to Bob and Milt! What did they do to you? Sure, I could have been nicer! But you should expect me to be mean and harsh. What about Bob and Milt though? What did they do?

[MCoving]

This post was obviously written in bitterness. I don't accept this letter Michael. I have confidence that you will return to us, apologize, and consider fellowshipping with us again. I do not see how you denied the Gospel. Although, I must admit - you have just been very rude to Bob and Milt! What did they do to you? Sure, I could have been nicer! But you should expect me to be mean and harsh. What about Bob and Milt though? What did they do?

I agree what did Bob and Milt do? Of anything Milt was extending his hand of fellowship.. even though people were in disagreement he was wanting to fellowship.

I want to start afresh in my Godly fellowship with anyone here who strongly disagree with me. Now that all of you, and you beloved Beloved 57, know my position, I want to extend to everyone the "right hand of fellowship" (I ain't telling you what the left is doing) and expect to find another one to shake it in brotherly love coming from everyone. I lament that this handshake will not be grounds for the "unity of faith" but may be a start.

Thanks!

Milt

Also Mike there are other people who believe in assurance by faith. I stated things that went against what you said and Kyle said. I truly believe Scripture is saying that the only true assurance we can rest on is faith.. which is a work of God. Because the other good works from God are not always there, they are changing so that cannot be a solid place to be in assurance. And coming from the background I did I want all my life and assurance to rest on grace.. and I want to obey God and see the fruit of the Spirit in my life! I truly believe Gods Word teaches assurance by faith. And trust me it'd be easier to lean to your understanding as you introduced me to Gods sovereign grace and salvation not conditioned by man.. and to this forum. And so I believe assurance by faith and yet you are mad at Bob, Milt and Brandan? Why not just include me in that too then.


I think loving others has been lost here... I'd have to say what I am seeing is just the same as the church I came from! We are juding each other, name calling and why? Because one doesn't agree on one's assurance? on the book of James? Yet WE ALL HAVE something so precious and thats a salvation by Christ alone.. not by any works of man! I grew up believing in free will.. I tasted of that crap just a month and a half ago! I was brought into beauty, into peace, into a wonderful place! A place where people do not condemn, where their lives rest on grace.. and not how much good works or sin is in their lives, a life where Christ is the center.. a life where people are in love with God so much not because of themselves but because of God.. and seek His Word out.

Where is the simplicity that I know of? Where has that gone? Where is the love? The fellowshipping in Gods grace? By having differences and agreeing to disagree and still be in Gods Word together! My last thoughts on this.. as Brandan is right in taking some time to rest in God and think things through.. I know I have tried to be very careful in not being quick to think on this topic. But I do probably am at fault sometimes.. so I want to apologize if I caused anyone to be upset and or offended by my words. I know that God will bring this around.. He has blessed you guys so much by His grace and Truths! If it wasn't for this site I would not have come to Gods Truths of grace and soveriegnty least not now.. course in being elect God would have regenerated in some way. But He choose to us this forum! I am blessed by that...

John 13:34
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

John 13:35
" By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

John 15:17
"This I command you, that you love one another.

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;

I could continue but I think the point is made. Stop holding peoples words and actions against each other! I have seen it too much lately and it makes me want to vomit!!! So speak in love.. and respect. That's all.. Night

Mary