Mike, this snippet from James does not contradict the Gospel - and indeed can be considered as truth. But you still have not adequately addressed James 2.Originally Posted by beloved57
Ray, I'm sorry if you think I'm being unfair. I didn't say you were a legalist, nor anyone here. I'm saying your position is dangerously close to legalism, and I will not back down from that.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
Follow me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/kraftb
Follow Predestinarian Network on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/predestinarian
Follow Predestinarian Network on Twitter: http://twitter.com/predestinarian
But you said in a former post that james is not gospel centric...So evidently there are some exceptions right ?
Okay so I am still reading through the forum.. but I just wanted to post my thoughts now as I read your post. I totally agree with what you said! I was reading over this and was like yeah! But now I need to find reference to that in Scripture.. but from what I've read of Gods Word and all that God has revealed so far.. which isn't as much as others I am sure.. but I agree that dead faith is no faith.. dead in sins, dead in faith.. and it is God who makes one alive. so we have alive faith. I'd think once one is regenerated that God also gives faith then too. I'll continue reading and any more thoughts come up I'll post more..
Oh also I am unsure of James.. Brandan you have some good points but so does others. I'd like to study more on the historical side of things.. to see if maybe James was added to the Bible.. like later by people.. or if something was added. I mean it can happen God warned against it!! And yet I know that all of God's Word is inspiried.. so its interesting.
Hope people are having a wonderful day! Man so many posts to read!EXCITING!!
Mary
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
Well, even the roman catholics get something right from time to time don't they - (ie. the concept of the trinity)? Some think James was a collection of writings of various sources.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
Follow me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/kraftb
Follow Predestinarian Network on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/predestinarian
Follow Predestinarian Network on Twitter: http://twitter.com/predestinarian
I need to read through James on my own now.. because it seems to be something that keeps coming up. But also remember that though it seems to be a huge deal its really not. Where is the foundation of people.. you know?
But yeah Brandan I agree we do not judge peope by their works! And so often we find that happening.. even when we do not mean to. But it still happens.. and I dont know.. but it seems if James is stressing this he could easily mislead people. But then again all Scripture is God-breathed.. so I come back to the idea well maybe something was added. I'll continue studying.. but just wanted to say AMEN to not judging people!!!
Mary
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
The first verse of James 2 Have not the faith of our lord jesus christ in vain.. This is the faith which christ is the author and finisher of, James recognizes a spirit wrought faith proceeding from the merits of christ, not the arminian faith in christ...
The Lord of Glory..... denoting His sovereignty and Deity...
James 2 : 5 speaks about Gods election see 1 cor 1 cor 1:27, 28 similar truth, is 1cor inspired ?
Also james 2: 5 beloved brethern another title of endearment see 1 thess
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Ja 1: 16
Do not err, my beloved brethren
ja 1: 19
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
2 pet 3: 15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Brandon every where in scripture beloved denotes spiritual brethern except for james according to you....it appears to me the holy spirit is consistent...
James 2 :7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called ( the effectual call ) another gospel truth ! in james 2...
James 2: 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
No different from what Christ spoke in Matt 7: 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
james 2 : 9
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors
1 tim 5 : 21 charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
Is paul now uninspired ? He says basically the same thing...
James 2 : 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
Perhaps one of the strongest verses in the whole bible to show a seven day adventis...Oh I know its inspired in this verse, but what about the next one
2 : 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. What is the law of liberty ? is it the same as the bondage of the law ?
Ja 2:14, 15, 16 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James is merely saying the same thing John says in 1 jn 3 : 16 ff
16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth
So now I guess John is not inspired, for hes making the same point as his beloved brother james...
Brandon I can go on and on but unless God opens your eyes to see that he is the author of James you will turn a deaf ear...
Now holla back
Before I continue - please know that I am passionate about this subject. I'm willing to stand against any and all on this issue. I think the beauty of this place is we can disagree on important topics as long as the Gospel is not modified.
Ray, Michael, Kyle, all who support James. I love you as brothers. I however love Grace very much and hate to see any form of attack on it - irregardless of where it is coming from. I think you all are inconsistent - (for your good) - and have twisted the plain teachings of James in order to keep from falling into false doctrine. However, the outcome of your interpretation is still way off base and could lead one to believe that assurance is by works as well. Also, I believe it could lead to one rejecting brothers based on a lack of caring for widows and orphans.
I don't want to give false doctrine any foothold, and I do care what you all believe because I think of you as brothers and want to see all of us grow into a greater knowledge of truth and grace.
Brandan
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
Follow me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/kraftb
Follow Predestinarian Network on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/predestinarian
Follow Predestinarian Network on Twitter: http://twitter.com/predestinarian
This particular question (I had no problem with the others) "sounded like there was a dichotomy" to me, that is why I picked the one that I did is because I believe there is no dichotomy in the soul between mind and heart.......this is all one package.......that question is the only one that bore any confusion for me........because of the word "just"
If I am correct (which I may not be) the answer in which Brandan is refering to "faith is believing in your heart as opposed to believing in your mind" was not a choice. (Correct me Brandan if I am wrong) The choice was "It is belief in the heart as opposed to just belief in the mind." Which would not be implying a dichotomy between mind and heart. It would be the heart and the mind as opposed to mind only.
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
Right - there is no such thing as belief in your heart vs. faith in your mind. When someone says they believe in their heart as opposed to believing just with their mind, they are saying that faith is more than just assent.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
Follow me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/kraftb
Follow Predestinarian Network on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/predestinarian
Follow Predestinarian Network on Twitter: http://twitter.com/predestinarian
Yes, thats why I picked it, it made the one that had just a mental assent sound like it was the dichotomy to me, not the other way around, and I read your post John after I posted that quick reply, I see that you and I apparently answered the same for the same reason?
Hmm interesting, how would you interpret rom 10 : 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
To whom are you addressing this question?
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
Believing in your heart IS believing with your mind. We cannot separate the two.
Robbins is very good on this topic:
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=53
I definitely recommend reading the rest of the article as well as the other articles on the trinity foundation website that deal with the definition of faith. Robbins and Clark are both superb on this subject.Long before neo-orthodox theologians thought of saying that faith is an encounter with a divine person rather than assent to a proposition, preachers who ought to have known better taught that faith is trust in a person, not belief in a creed. This writer, when a teenager, was told that some people would miss Heaven by twelve inches—the distance between the head and the heart—because they believed the Gospel with their heads but not with their hearts. Today it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is to find a minister—a conservative minister— who does not believe and teach that one must have a "personal relationship" with Christ in order to be saved. But what that "personal relationship" consists of is either not made explicit or, when made explicit, contradicts what the Bible teaches about saving faith. The result is that non-Christians are either needlessly confused or deliberately misled. Perhaps the world is not responding to our message because we have garbled the message. Neither we, nor they, know exactly what to do to have eternal life.
Statements such as these about the head and the heart and trusting a person, not believing a creed, are not only false, they have created the conditions for the emergence of all sorts of religious subjectivism, from modernism to the charismatic movement and beyond. No one will miss Heaven by twelve inches, for there is no distance between the head and the heart: "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." The head/heart contrast is a figment of modern secular psychology, not a doctrine of divine revelation. St. Sigmund, not St. John, controls the pulpit in all too many churches.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
Follow me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/kraftb
Follow Predestinarian Network on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/predestinarian
Follow Predestinarian Network on Twitter: http://twitter.com/predestinarian
I`m sorry to Brandon..
Darryl, I do not deny that there could be some very good things written in James. Recall my earlier posts in the threads where we discussed this, and you will see that I was reluctant in rejecting James because there is much there that I could find enjoyment and rejoicing. There are some very good principles taught in the book (ie. not giving preferences amongst brethren.) However, as with any teacher, institution, movement, or piece of literature, I must reject it as a whole because it clearly teaches justification by works. Most cults use Gospel language to deceive their followers, but that doesn't mean they are Gospel teachers. Further, it's quite possible that there may be some inspired text in the book of James and it was corrupted by works mongerers. As long as the phrase "justification by works" is in this book, I will reject it. It does not bear the mark of an apostle and the overall theme of the book is justification by works. You could go on and on? Please do! I can show you that in the vast majority of verses from James that the entire argument is LAW - WORKS - and there is nary a mention of Christ and His Grace!
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
Follow me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/kraftb
Follow Predestinarian Network on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/predestinarian
Follow Predestinarian Network on Twitter: http://twitter.com/predestinarian
In all sincerity Mike, I love your reasoning! But checking more closely, look at your reasoning on James 2:26 in the quote above. James is not saying that the absence of a spirit makes a body not existent; he is saying that the absence of a spirit makes a body dead.
As such, James is saying that there is such a thing as "dead faith". The comparison with a spirit-less body is the proof of it; it says that something exists without life, but it does exists. In fact, that proves my point all along when I say that James believe that "works of charity" empowers our faith with life. According to James, if a body has a spirit it has life; thus, if our faith has "works of charity" it also has life. Now we should ask ourselves honestly:
Do works of charity (I want to stay in the context of James) is REALLY what gives life to our faith as a spirit gives life to a body?
Should we go around preaching that?
My point here is simple: James teaches that as there is a body, although dead because of the absence of a spirit, there is a dead faith because of the absence of works.
Think of it!
Respectfully yours
Milt
Grace Ambassador
A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace
My pledge to other members:
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11
Yes , I agree if one is speaking about subjective feeling over a Proper understanding of the Doctrine of Christ...many I know claim to be saved based upon some subjective feeling rather than believeing the truth about Jesus...However I believe those who belive with their heart are those who have had christ revealed to them , the true Christ as opposed to a false christ. This is one of the new covenant blessings to Gods elect...
jer 31:33 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel ( the elect) after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
I believe that those who believe the doctrines of grace from a mind/heart perspective are the true champions of the cause...Plenty of so called christains only believe with the mind, that is, the truths of the gospel are only mentally percieved and only considered as another interpretation.
Notice that God distinguishes both mind and heart....
I think that we JUDGE WORKS BY THE GOSPEL. And in judging works, we judge the person's profession. This is exactly what James is speaking about. He is talking about ones who PROFESS ("but someone may say") to have faith and our judgment of this PROFESSION by their works.
You state that "We do not judge people by their works. Period."
How on earth else do we judge one another then? Everytime you type out a message and post it Brandan, what is that? A work? Everytime you type out a Gtalk message to me, what is that? A work? When we meet in St. Louis, Lord willing, and you shake my hand, what is that? A work? When we sit down to eat and you say a prayer, what is that? A work? When we TALK and rejoice in our Lord together, what is that? A series of WORKS?
I cannot open your brain and look in to DIRECTLY judge your thoughts and assent to the truth gospel of our Lord. I cannot possibly assess whether your profession of Christ is true or not without judging your EXTERNAL WORKS. Come now brother, please see this!
I do believe exactly this because the Bible states it clearly.However, the outcome of your interpretation is still way off base and could lead one to believe that assurance is by works as well.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1Jo 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
John's first epistle is sometimes called the great assurance epistle, and look at the things he says!
Gal 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
The way I see it is really pretty simple: A body without the spirit is useless and ‘faith’ (which is not true faith at all) without works is useless. This is clearly James’ intended usage of v.26 and you can see this by his example in vs. 15-16. The so called ‘faith’ James refers to here is one that would turn away a brother or sister in need. This ‘faith’ profits this needy brother or sister nothing (v.16), this faith is useless, it is as useless as a dead body.In all sincerity Mike, I love your reasoning! But checking more closely, look at your reasoning on James 2:26 in the quote above. James is not saying that the absence of a spirit makes a body not existent; he is saying that the absence of a spirit makes a body dead.
As such, James is saying that there is such a thing as "dead faith". The comparison with a spirit-less body is the proof of it; it says that something exists without life, but it does exists. In fact, that proves my point all along when I say that James believe that "works of charity" empowers our faith with life. According to James, if a body has a spirit it has life; thus, if our faith has "works of charity" it also has life. Now we should ask ourselves honestly:
Do works of charity (I want to stay in the context of James) is REALLY what gives life to our faith as a spirit gives life to a body?
Should we go around preaching that?
My point here is simple: James teaches that as there is a body, although dead because of the absence of a spirit, there is a dead faith because of the absence of works.
Now we can try to strain the analogy of the dead body but simply does not fit the context; what I just gave does.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks