Amen Mike, James is merely stating just as John 1jn 3: 16 , 17
16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
John will say the same thing, this persons faith wouuld be worthless..
so what think ye of John, was he inspired when he penned these words?
I'm also confused on that question.. the others okay. But that one I have I dont know under. Probably because of seperating heart and mind. 'Cause one can have the knowledge of who God is.. like the demons and such but they dont follow they are not elect. I think the heart and mind go together. So I dont really know what to put.Originally Posted by Whammer
Second here is my thought on this James thread again. Post your thoughts.. ask questions.. keep an open-mind and then LET IT GO! Do you trust God? Do you trust that God will reveal His desires to you in time? I mean we all have heard each others points.. lets keep an open mind.. read Scripture and let God confirm ones position or change it.. let God be the One to change ones minds and not each other. Maybe I am just an "infant" in all of this but it just seems people are trying to change each other and its getting no where. People are very passionate about their position because its such a sticky subject so move on! Don't let it cause dissention.. talk in brotherly love and stop beating it to death IMO.
My thoughts are this.. all of Scripture is inspired of God. If James wasn't inspired then how do we know the rest of Scripture is? If James has a few verses that have been added how do we know that other books of the Bible don't? How do we know we can be assured of anything in the Bible then? Do we look to history? That may be I am unsure.. it could be that man added to Scripture but how are we to tell? The early manuscriptes? the Greek bibles? I just am unsure.
Just dont allow this to become a dissension or dispute as is warned in Galatians 5:19-21. But one that makes people ask questions and know what they believe and why.. And let God be the one to change ones thoughts!!
Again.. I may be off in this thinking, or I may be thinking this because I am new to the faith.. but it just seems like a topic that has been exhausted. You guys love each other so much and I just think at times there's a point where one must agree to disagree until the Lord shows otherwise so that a friendship wont be hurt. Least we all believe in Gods true Gospel, in the Gospel not conditioned upon man. That is a blessing!! I have no friends here in Oregon like that.. I have never known of Gods Truths before until now. Its an amazing thing!!
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
Your right young lady, bless you..I'm also confused on that question.. the others okay. But that one I have I dont know under. Probably because of seperating heart and mind. 'Cause one can have the knowledge of who God is.. like the demons and such but they dont follow they are not elect. I think the heart and mind go together. So I dont really know what to put.
Second here is my thought on this James thread again. Post your thoughts.. ask questions.. keep an open-mind and then LET IT GO! Do you trust God? Do you trust that God will reveal His desires to you in time? I mean we all have heard each others points.. lets keep an open mind.. read Scripture and let God confirm ones position or change it.. let God be the One to change ones minds and not each other. Maybe I am just an "infant" in all of this but it just seems people are trying to change each other and its getting no where. People are very passionate about their position because its such a sticky subject so move on! Don't let it cause dissention.. talk in brotherly love and stop beating it to death IMO.
My thoughts are this.. all of Scripture is inspired of God. If James wasn't inspired then how do we know the rest of Scripture is? If James has a few verses that have been added how do we know that other books of the Bible don't? How do we know we can be assured of anything in the Bible then? Do we look to history? That may be I am unsure.. it could be that man added to Scripture but how are we to tell? The early manuscriptes? the Greek bibles? I just am unsure.
Just dont allow this to become a dissension or dispute as is warned in Galatians 5:19-21. But one that makes people ask questions and know what they believe and why.. And let God be the one to change ones thoughts!!
Again.. I may be off in this thinking, or I may be thinking this because I am new to the faith.. but it just seems like a topic that has been exhausted. You guys love each other so much and I just think at times there's a point where one must agree to disagree until the Lord shows otherwise so that a friendship wont be hurt. Least we all believe in Gods true Gospel, in the Gospel not conditioned upon man. That is a blessing!! I have no friends here in Oregon like that.. I have never known of Gods Truths before until now. Its an amazing thing!!
Thank you brother! I see your point!
I hope and pray that we will not start to develop a mentality of measuring the usefulness of our faith by the works we perform and will not allow men to judge our faith by the works we perform. If so, the next thing we will have in the Gospel is a return to Pharisaic where they competed for who was the most "faithful" or had the "most faith" by the works they performed and sought to have their faith justified before men in public in their alms and other public acts even to the point of taking a bugle with them.
These were indeed recognized by men. Sadly Jesus tells us that they already received the reward they sought: man's recognition, or men's justification if you will. So there is no other reward for them!
Funny that Jesus taught exactly the opposite: For us to do our works of charity and religious duty in secret. How can one be justified before men doing his works of charity and religious work in secret?
Although I agree that we are called to do good works, I cannot and will never agree, and don't see anywhere in the Bible that we should do these works so men would recognize us and have our faith justified and that we should be men pleasers.
I respect and love all those who disagree with me! I just hope they practice the works of charity recommended by James and that do so in public so they can be justified by men as James recommends! That is the only way to be consistent with the command of James. I will continue to seek after the command of Jesus and attempt not to mention whatever way I display my faith by doing my pitiful, pathetic and poor works of charity! Perhaps that's why men do not think so highly of me... but, then again, so what!
The error, in my humble, very humble view, is NOT that James tells us to perform good works. This is expected of us naturally! According to the interpreters of James, he tells us to justify our faith before men and be "saved" before men by performing these works. As someone married to one of the most charitable persons I have ever met, this is a bill hard to fit for me and I am sure for many others, including her, my wife since she does it BEFORE GOD AND NOT MEN!
Feeding our brethren should be because God "fed" us and gave us His most precious gift (2 Cor 9:15 in context of giving for charity) and not to be recognized or justified by men or an "evidence" of the usefulness of our faith.
I am stepping out of this conversation since I see that, as Brazilians say, a BAD agreement is much better than a GOOD fight... So, let's have a "BAD" agreement to disagree!
Milt
Grace Ambassador
A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace
My pledge to other members:
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11
"Dead faith"; no such thing! Dead works, YES!!! Works without faith are a dead corpse that will NEVER be resurrected for all eternity!
James 2:23 speaks of JUSTIFICATION BEFORE GOD and was PLAGIARIZED from IRENAEUS! It is not quoting scripture but quotes the scriptural variation in "Against Heresies" where the expression AND HE WAS CALLED GOD'S FRIEND tacked on to Gen. 15:6 is first recorded!
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Wow Milt, your totally missing it...How do you interpret 1 jn 3:16, 17,18
16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
okay so I was thinking again about James and this discussion. Do we believe that God is the ultimate cause of everything? Well if so then He had a reason for James being in His Word!! Maybe its to see that James emphasizes works.. maybe its to see how he doesnt.. maybe its to see that men can add stuff to James and not make it flow correctly like there is inconsistency. But for whatever reasons.. which He will reveal to His people in time. It is there! He is the cause of James being there.. not man. James may have had a different focus but the Book of James is still inspired by God. Wouldn't you say? Because He inspires and causes all things? I dont know.. just a thought.
Mary
Last edited by MCoving; 04-03-2006 at 11:20 PM.
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
Brother:
The second verse is the moto of my wife's mission. That does not say that this justify us before God or men. It tells us, consistently with Paul, that it is our duty. Here John says that we perceive the love of God. There is no comparison here or citation of Abraham and his faith or mentioning of justification or a challenge to anyone's faith and its usefulness based upon their works of charity. Are we going to call "justified" anyone who practices charity? I know a Muslim organization that beats us in every score, tragically! One may say, "they are not Christians even with their charitable work". I'd say, then, what is the point of their charity? What John teaches us is duty among the brethen not justification before men and/or God.
Again, my humble opinion!
Thanks for the verses anyway; I will ponder on them further!
By the way: Want to feed your brethren? Want to have relationship with the poor? Join my wife in her next trip to Brazil!
Write me for details! She is opening a new mission in a bucolic beach resort in the state of Sergipe, where the fishermen live by the ocean side in abject poverty and children are "sold" in the sexual market as early as 8 (to Amreicans of course) and have babies even before they reach 12. My wife is seeking volunteers! Of course my wife speaks in tongues and praises God with her hands up in the air, but her charity should speak volumes about her faith because she feeds the brethren, respects the poor and is charitable... it is in the book of James! Join her in the next trip: June 19 or August 21 (two trips).
In Brotherly love,
Milt
Last edited by GraceAmbassador; 04-03-2006 at 11:22 PM.
Grace Ambassador
A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace
My pledge to other members:
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11
Here is an excerpt from a sermon on this topic to add to the discussion. Sorry if the formating is messed up.
The faith that does not save is a mere profession of faith
that does not result in a life of good deeds.
A key word in James 2:14 is says. James does not refer to someone who has genuine faith, but no works, because genuine faithnecessarily results in a life of good works. Just as a seed that youplant will necessarily, because of the life that is in it, grow into atree that bears fruit according to its kind, so genuine saving faith
will produce good works. Necessarily does not mean automatically. Just as the seed must be watered and cultivated to bear fruit, so saving faith must be nurtured to bear the fruit of good deeds. But those good deeds are not tacked onto saving faith. Rather, they are inherent in such saving faith. They stem from its very nature. When God imparts salvation to a sinner, He changes the heart. In Ezekiel (36:26-27), God promised, “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes,and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” That promise came to fruition in the new covenant that Jesus inaugurated. Thus the apostle Paul wrote (2 Cor. 5:17), “Therefore if anyone is in
Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold,
new things have come.”Thus genuine faith necessarily results in a changed heart becauseof the new birth (John 3:1-8). When God imparts new life to us, we
are changed from within. In John 5:24, Jesus said, “Truly, truly I
say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me,
has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed
out of death into life.” There is a fundamental change from death
to life that is associated with genuine faith. Because of its very nature,
this new life will result in good works.Thus Jesus did not contradict Himself just a few verses later,when He said (John 5:28-29), “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”He meant that those who have passed out of death into life (John 5:24) will live in accordance with that new life. Their lives are marked by good deeds.Those who merely say that they have saving faith, but who live for themselves, are deceived. Such false “faith” does not save anyone.
The apostle John deals with this kind of false profession throughout First John. For example, 1 John 1:6 states, “If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.” Or, (1 John 2:4), “The one who
says, ‘I have come to know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments,is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” Again (1 John2:5b-6), “By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says heabides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He
walked.” The point is the same throughout Scripture: Saving faith
results in a changed life of good deeds. False faith is empty profession, lacking good deeds.This is, I think, the point of verse 18. James brings up a hypothetical comment that someone may make: “You have faith andI have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” This is a difficult verse to interpret,because whatever view you take has problems that cannot be
resolved! Part of the problem stems from the fact that the original
Greek did not have punctuation, and so we do not know where the
quotation ends. It may end after, “You have faith and I have
works.” The remainder of the verse would then be James’ reply.
The hypothetical person would then be raising an objection
that James answers. The problem is, the objection doesn’t fit the
problem that James is addressing, that of the person who says, “I have faith,” but he has no works. In other words, the pronouns are not consistent with the context. So we have to assume that the objector is saying something else, namely, that it is possible to have faith without works or works without faith. James retorts that it is
impossible to verify faith apart from works, since faith is a hidden
attitude of the heart. The only way that we can see true faith is by
the person’s works.Because of the awkwardness of this view, others say that the
hypothetical person is not objecting to James’ view, but rather
agreeing with him. This makes the pronouns consistent, but it requires
translating the strong adversative (“but”) as an emphatic,
“yes, indeed.” While grammatically possible, that is linguistically
improbable, because as Peter Davids explains, “no one has yet
been able to find a case where this common stylistic introduction
did not introduce an opposing or disagreeing voice” (New International
Greek Testament Commentary on James [Eerdmans], p. 124).
If I lost you in this discussion, James’ point is probably that
you cannot separate true faith from good deeds. If someone claims
to have faith but has no good deeds, his claim proves nothing. Just
as seeing fruit on a tree tells you that the tree is alive, so seeing
good deeds is one sign that the person has new life in Christ.
The faith that does not save may be doctrinally correct,
but there is no change of heart or behavior.
James’ words in verse 19 would have shocked his readers. Hestates the core of the Jewish Shema (Deut. 6:4): “Hear, O Israel!
The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!” Every Jew and Christian
believes that truth. The doctrine of the Trinity does not contradict
it. God is one God, and yet He is three persons. James commends
the professing believer for holding to this truth: “You do well.”
Then he sticks in the knife: “The demons also believe, and shudder.”
The demons are doctrinally orthodox!Not only that, they even experience an emotional response to the truth: they shudder in fear! They’re more responsive than the
one who has a mere intellectual faith! But the problem is, the demons
cannot repent. They have no change of mind, where they
turn from their rebellion to submission to God. They have no
change of heart, where they turn from hating God to loving Him.
They have no change of will or behavior, where they turn from
disobedience to obedience. Faith that does not result in a change
from self-centered rebellion to God-centered obedience is no better
than the faith of demons! James is not implying that sound doctrine is unimportant or
irrelevant. There is a strong emphasis throughout the entire Bible
on the truth, with many warnings against false teachers. Saving
faith must rest on Jesus Christ as revealed in Scripture. To believe
in a Christ of your own imagination is to believe in an idol. To trust
in someone or something for eternal life other than Jesus Christ
and His death on the cross is to be deceived on the most important
issue in life.There are many people who have trusted in their good works
to get them into heaven. From a human standpoint, they were
good people who spent their lives serving others. But if they never
turned from their sin and trusted in Christ and His shed blood,
their good works did not get them into heaven. Mother Teresa, for
example, was a very good person. But if she trusted in her good
works, rather than in Christ, or if she trusted in the virgin Mary to
get her into heaven, she went to hell! Albert Schweitzer spent his
life as a medical missionary in Africa. He was a good man, but he
denied the historical Jesus. His good deeds did not get him into
heaven. Good deeds will not get anyone into heaven.
So, James’ point (in 2:19) is not that believing in sound doctrine
is unimportant. Rather, his point is that believing sound doctrine
alone is insufficient for salvation. Genuine saving faith is always
connected with the new birth. New life in Christ necessarily
results in a life of good deeds.
The gospel is to be preached indiscriminately to the elect and to the reprobate: but the elect alone come to Christ, because they have been taught of God. - John Calvin
Forester07's Blog
Mary, it would be beneficial to read our past posts on this. The idea of a "canon" is not at all espoused in Scripture, and it wasn't until Calvin came along did we have an "official" protestant canon where he included the book of James as being "inspired." There are dozens of other books that were left out of this 66 book canon. Why was James included (we're not sure that James even wrote this book) and not others? Because Calvin and the other reformers "could tell that it was inspired."
I do agree with you that James was included in the official 66 book canon by the hand of God Himself. But that does not mean it is the truth. God intended for it to be there to accomplish whatever purposes He might have had. For example, I believe it was included in the canon by God in order to deceive many even further. It was included to be the foundation for many cults.
What Bob, Milt, and I are advocating is a Gospel centric hermeneutic for determining what books are inspired. We believe we must judge all things by the Gospel - not by feelings or historic inclusion. When we compare the contents of James, we do not believe that it lives up to the teachings of Grace and indeed think that it opposes it. Therefore we believe we must reject it. Martin Luther for example originally did not think the book of James should be seen as canon and called the book an epistle of straw because he saw correctly that it opposed the Gospel of justification by faith alone.
Milt, thank you for your last post. It was very good. I like how you mentioned that Jesus taught that we are to do our good works in secret. James who is concerned with justification by works would have us looking to do good works in order to be justified by God (or in the case of the views of the people on this forum - by men).
Brandan
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Amen Brandan!
I'm still convinced that James is a very late 2nd century or early 3rd century writing due to the plagiarism of at least 2 statements in Irenaeus--ones that are original in Irenaeus that he doesn't attribute to anyone else and also cannot be found in any earlier writings! But even if Jas. 2:14-26 was written by James himself, I do not accept any writing that opposes the true gospel as infallible scripture.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Jas 1:27, (KJV), Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Now, I don't know how anyone can defend this statement by James either! PURE RELIGION is visiting orphans and widows? Why not rejoicing in the Soveiregnty of God and His Pristine Grace? Paul would never write stuff like this!
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Here is a list that precedes Calvin. I know he omits Lamentations but does that mean that this cannot be used?
From Athanasius' 39th Festal Letter in the year 367:
Continuing, I must without hesitation mention the scriptures of the New Testament; they are the following: the four Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, after them the Acts of the Apostles and the seven so-called catholic epistles of the apostles -- namely, one of James, two of Peter, then three of John and after these one of Jude. In addition there are fourteen epistles of the apostle Paul written in the following order: the first to the Romans, then two to the Corinthians and then after these the one to the Galatians, following it the one to the Ephesians, thereafter the one to the Philippians and the one to the Colossians and two to the Thessalonians and the epistle to the Hebrews and then immediately two to Timothy , one to Titus and lastly the one to Philemon. Yet further the Revelation of John...
Last edited by Mickey; 04-04-2006 at 12:17 AM.
We know that the Romans adopted James quite late in their canon history but where is a protestant list?
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Athanasius is the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox list, Calvin is the first to adopt this same list as the standard of Protestantism. This applies only to the NT because the Catholic church adopted many other OT books beyond the 39.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
When did people start calling themselves Protestant and why does it matter?We know that the Romans adopted James quite late in their canon history but where is a protestant list?
Yeah but why would God allow the book of James into the Bible if it is not His Word? Why would He allow false doctrine into the Bible to decieve His people?
2 Timothy 3:15-17
15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
In light of this verse why would God cause something to be added into His sacred writings that aren't inspired from Himself, profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness? If He caused James to be there.. yet it isn't leading towards righteousness and isn't inspired of Him then this verse would be false wouldn't it??
Sorry if this has already been talked about.. maybe I should read the other forums.. just hardly have time to keep up on the recent then.. read the old as well.
Mary
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
LOL great line Milt.
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The facts cited in the canon thread have already been forgotten by most, Athanasius deviated from Eusebius who cited not many years earlier that 5 books were still significantly disputed: James, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, and Jude.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Mary: Why would He allow false doctrine into the Bible to decieve His people?
God did not put false doctrine into his Bible. Under the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, we can discern what the scriptures truly are. Mark 16:9ff was not part of the original scriptures, yet the passage is in all of the Bibles that we carry today! So there is not an issue with carrying a Bible that contains passages not originally inspired by God as a part of scripture such as Jas. 2:14-26.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
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