Jesus commands His people to love one another, John commands the elect to believe, and there are ole so many other imperatives in the NT , and guess what, they are commands...Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador
Oh by the way, sorry if I offended you by my comment that you are confused..
Nice try but I don't buy it.I don't understand how you come to this conclusion that breathing is not a work? Breathing is a work as much as walking or talking are works. Breathing takes a little less conscious effort, but it involves the will of the mind, muscular movements, etc. How can breathing not be a work?!
Of course, but this "spiritual breathing" is internal and completely invisible. It is in no way externally viewable except by outward works.An elect individual is spiritually breathing when God fills his mind with Grace. It is not a work.
Confession is a WORK that begins in the mind and exits the lips. It is a work of volition that involves the mind, the lungs, the lips, and the tongue.You can tell they are breathing because the confess the truth. Period.
Let's get into the Word to solve this... can you exegete this for me:
1 Joh 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Or this one:
Mat 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
This one too:
Joh 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
Looks like we need to cut out a few more passages that teach the judgment of others by their works...?
Gal 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
My position after reading is that James is not saying that this is a standard by which we should judge others but is an assurance of our own election, Is he speaking to the group as individuals? There were probably people in question of their faith which is not faith. It seems to me that Since faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and in the heart, but working inside of your brain, it would produce good works. The Lord says that a bad tree will bear bad fruit and a good tree will bear good fruit. Dead faith does to me, seem like a sarcasm he is using. Could a person be decieved into thinking that they have faith without actually having it? Sure. Maybe James is saying that faith is the root, and works are the fruit which gives personal assurance (or faith) to the person. Is that circular reasoning?
I think a better applicable definition needs to be given to faith and how we see it working. That is my question does faith WORK, and if so, then dead faith would not work but be a deception or an assumption of faith but has not actually been given by God.
Our own works are NEVER to be looked at for assurance. The merits of Christ are the only true means of assurance to the Christian. The true gift of faith always has, as it's object, the person and work of Christ.Maybe James is saying that faith is the root, and works are the fruit which gives personal assurance (or faith) to the person. Is that circular reasoning?
Good works do not produce assurance just as they don't produce faith. Good works accompany true faith as the outward manifestation of the mental assent burned into the mind by the Holy Spirit.
I Believe all the brethern, Mike, Ray , and myself, and others have sufficently showed from scripture that faith ( A spiritual grace from christ ) produces good works and thats all James is saying...To continue on now is unprofitable. Brandon and Bob and Milt don`t see it ,so be it. Let us press on to the truths we do agree upon...
You're right, only Christ's percfection is to be looked at for assurance, I really worded that wrong, It's hard to explain these things, but isn't the person and work of Christ gradually manifest itself in us? While our sin keeps us in humbleness?
The book of James begins by saying:
"Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." James 1:2-4 Reformation Study Bible
Now is this explaining the process of sanctification? Is this also James's way of defining faith? I think that this introduction to the book should be examined since he is preparing the reader for what he is going to say.
I quoted these earlier Mike, I wonder if you might give me your opinion:
1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1 John 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
I could add others to these, such as:
1 John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
2 Pet 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble
Assurance comes from the work (the COMPLETE work) of the Holy Spirit in our lives. His work is the assurance of faith and also "the good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them". This is the biblical position, as shown.
Gal 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Your so right Mike, thats a difficult lesson to learn, but God is faithful in bringing us to that conclusion...
Just as a side-note it appears that this discussion has turned into a political debate, I think both sides have a different view of the object of discussion and what it is. Rather than trying to disprove what the book is, why don't both sides of the discussion prove in fullness what the book is. The objective is to find the truth, right? I don't know if that can be achieved without explaining the book in full detail.
The book is there for a reason since God is sovereign over all things, and God has obviously decided that this remain an issue. Don't call it over till it's over.
The original question is whether James should be included in the Bible, or be taken as truthfully as the other books, if not, then I think it has to be explained the objective of the book and what it is implying and what it has to say to us whether its the truth or not. God left it there for a reason and maybe that doesn't prove that the book is worthy for the Bible, or maybe God does have a plan for it to be left out.
Amen kyle, I believe you have the right perspective....
The Holy Spirit gives us the faith and the power to obey God, to keep His law.
Ezek 11:19-20
19 And I will give them one heart , and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Those who merely profess Christ will not be able to manifest the faith and power necessary to obey. This is what I understand to be a dead faith. Jesus said:
Matt 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
One who does the will of God keeps the Law of God. (I hope I haven't repeated the same scripture)
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
I actually take that verse now to teach that Gods elect will come to understand that Christ has done those things for him or on his behalf....
and it is as they have done them themselves in God`s sight..
Robert Raymond:
And whereas Paul believed with all his heart that men are justified by faith alone, he insists as strongly as James that such faith, if alone, is not true but dead faith: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. [What counts] is faith working through love" (Gal. 5:6), which is hardly different in meaning from James's expression: "faith was working together with [Abraham's] works, and by works his faith was perfected" (James 2:22). Paul can also speak of the Christian's "work of faith" (1 Thess. 1:3). And in the very context where he asserts that we are saved by grace through faith and "not by works," Paul can declare that we are "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10). In sum, whereas for James "faith without works in dead," for Paul "faith working through love" is inevitable if it is true faith.
1 Thess 1:2-5
We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
Wow, excellent....
rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
WOW , Paul must have not been inspired when he made this statememt....
Please brother, reconsider the text of this post! It is a blunt misrepresentation. I pray it is not intentional. You can read anything we have written and we have vowed and repeatedly stated that faith produces good works. You just showed that you don't understand what this discussion is about and indeed it is unprofitable to continue. We quoted Ephesians 2:10 many times as the truth!I Believe all the brethern, Mike, Ray , and myself, and others have sufficently showed from scripture that faith ( A spiritual grace from christ ) produces good works and thats all James is saying...To continue on now is unprofitable. Brandon and Bob and Milt don`t see it ,so be it. Let us press on to the truths we do agree upon...
You involved a few other brethren here so you can ask Mike, Ray and others if they believe that we deny that faith produces good works and also ask them what is the real thrust of this discussion; it may be enlightening to you.
Again, I hope your misrepresentation is not deliberate slander, but just something off a lack of information.
Just for your information, what we are saying is that no one is justified by faith and works; the elect is justified by faith alone and we believe that whoever iterpolated the text of James 2 is teaching a sinergy of faith and works.
Please, again, review the tone of the post I quoted!
Thanks brother!
Milt
Grace Ambassador
A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace
My pledge to other members:
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11
If the exegesis of this test is that of yours, then Paul was inspired to contradict himself in all he wrote! Check again, please!rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
WOW , Paul must have not been inspired when he made this statememt....
Thanks brother!
Milt
Grace Ambassador
A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace
My pledge to other members:
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11
Yeah, doers of the law will be justified, but regardless we cannot keep the law, thats what Christ alone did and we are justified becasue of him, I think someone just corrected me before for missing this.
Makes sense now, faith does produce good works, but regardless people are sinners, and without the gift of faith from God to the elect in Christ, people are subject to God's wrath for eternity. No ones faith can be measured by their works from faith, because works can be without faith. Which is why only the Lord knows our hearts and minds. So how does James contradict this? It seems that he is just saying that good works are, well good, and that when hardship comes, perhaps not good works, sin, then we should persevere because it builds faith. But of course faith comes from God and isnt based off of human accomplishment.
Please be advised, I`m not saying that Brandon, bob and milt don`t believe in good works, but that they don`t believe James is inspired by God, correct me if I`m wrong..I Believe all the brethern, Mike, Ray , and myself, and others have sufficently showed from scripture that faith ( A spiritual grace from christ ) produces good works and thats all James is saying...To continue on now is unprofitable. Brandon and Bob and Milt don`t see it ,so be it. Let us press on to the truths we do agree upon...
James 1:3-4
3for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
When our faith is tested, the work of steadfastness or patients is produced showing our faith to truly be the gift of God. If you shake an apple tree what should fall from its branches? Apples of course! If trials do not produce the fruit of steadfastness or patience indeed the Holy Spirit does not dwell in this person (Gal 5:22-23).
Is faith something that remains in the mind and does not produce fruit in the individual? In other words is it possible that the fruit of the spirit will never manifest itself in the believer (not counting the abnormal case of a last minute conversion)? James say saying nothing different in v. 4 than Paul is in Phil 1:6 “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Do we have perfect faith? No, but the fruit which faith produces shows it (faith) to be true and effectual; this is what James means by “full effect.” And as faith produces patients (in James’ context) which endures till the end (which we are told that only those who endure will be saved (Matt 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13)) faith is shown to be that perfect work of God in preserving the saints.
James 2:21-22
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works…
Faith was ‘completed’ or perfected (as the KJV states) by works... This language or description of works is similar to that stated in James 1:3-4. Had Abraham not had true faith he would not have offered Isaac. It is not as though the works act upon the faith to make it true, rather they were “active along with faith” to show it to be true.
If someone has a problem with James using the words, ‘faith was completed’ or ‘made perfect.’ Then what do they have to say about John?
1 John 4:12, 17
12No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
17By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
Does this not mirror the language of James? Is not the love of God which is in us made known or shown to be true by our loving one another, by our confession of Christ and by abiding in love?
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks