What is "Dead Faith?"

[Mickey]

The above post was not to prove that faith produces works, as we all believe this to be true. It was to show that this is all James is teaching. It is to refute the man or woman that says they have faith but have not works.

[GraceAmbassador]

Please be advised, I`m not saying that Brandon, bob and milt don`t believe in good works, but that they don`t believe James is inspired by God, correct me if I`m wrong..

Thanks Brother!

Yes, you are correct!

[beloved57]

James 1:3-4
3for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

When our faith is tested, the work of steadfastness or patients is produced showing our faith to truly be the gift of God. If you shake an apple tree what should fall from its branches? Apples of course! If trials do not produce the fruit of steadfastness or patience indeed the Holy Spirit does not dwell in this person (Gal 5:22-23).

Is faith something that remains in the mind and does not produce fruit in the individual? In other words is it possible that the fruit of the spirit will never manifest itself in the believer (not counting the abnormal case of a last minute conversion)? James say saying nothing different in v. 4 than Paul is in Phil 1:6 “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Do we have perfect faith? No, but the fruit which faith produces shows it (faith) to be true and effectual; this is what James means by “full effect.” And as faith produces patients (in James’ context) which endures till the end (which we are told that only those who endure will be saved (Matt 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13)) faith is shown to be that perfect work of God in preserving the saints.

James 2:21-22
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works…

Faith was ‘completed’ or perfected (as the KJV states) by works... This language or description of works is similar to that stated in James 1:3-4. Had Abraham not had true faith he would not have offered Isaac. It is not as though the works act upon the faith to make it true, rather they were “active along with faith” to show it to be true.

If someone has a problem with James using the words, ‘faith was completed’ or ‘made perfect.’ Then what do they have to say about John?

1 John 4:12, 17
12No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

17By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

Does this not mirror the language of James? Is not the love of God which is in us made known or shown to be true by our loving one another, by our confession of Christ and by abiding in love?

Mike, thats a excellent post, bless you..

[GraceAmbassador]

The above post was not to prove that faith produces works, as we all believe this to be true.

Thank you very much brother Mike!

Mike and all: The best thing to do is for me to leave this discussion for good.

My flesh is taking over and I just want to remind all who sincerely believe in the inspiration of James 2 that good works can and must include not to misrepresent others and respect others.

I believe in loving one another as Christ loved us (although it may be impossible)
I believe in good works and my ministry is founded in good works (although I hate to advertise and prefer to do it in secret)
I believe that minor theological misinterpretations are not grounds for the breaking of fellowship (although when you get to heaven you will agree with me since you will know all things... )
I believe that illegal aliens should be deported (clean your own bathroom! )
I believe we're going to have a great time in Missouri next month
I believe in filling the stomach of hungry people before we tell them about Jesus
I believe that God commands us to be concerened about our brother's needs
I believe that all should donate to ministries that supply for people's needs (send me your offering)
I believe that this is not being a blessing to anyone
I believe that "the peace of the Lord should rule (be the referee is the idea) in our hearts and the referee is stopping the game.
I believe that there is not even a point in attempting a "detant" here by joking because perhaps it is impossible to reduce the tensions of our differences. As such, in the peace of the Lord I quit!

Milt

[jmgipson]

I believe that minor theological misinterpretations are not grounds for the breaking of fellowship (although when you get to heaven you will agree with me since you will know all things... )Milt

LOL

Milt,
Look forward to hearing your sermon in the show me state.

John

[Robert R. Higby]

I certainly do not believe that our works are the only entity that is visible to the community of faith. If that is true, we are of all men most miserable!

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus of the true gospel and believe in your heart that God raised him as both Lord and Christ of the universe, you are evidenced to be justified in the sight of both God and other believers. It is the gospel that fills our minds--what we love, share, and mutually confess that is the food and drink of our souls. Certain works not repented of in the end MAY prove us to be unregenerate, but no certainly no works of philantropy show us to be regenerate and justified.

I deny "dead faith" of course but this is the whole James and canon discussion all over again. If we continue we need to at least comment on specific verses and their meaning (however debated). I think we need to re-visit the canon issue but not yet; not until we come up with a different standard for debating it and exchanging than we had last time. Also, people need to settle down & not attempt to score points against their perceived opponents with the one-liner sarcasm.

[Mickey]

If we continue we need to at least comment on specific verses and their meaning (however debated).

Ummm...I thought that’s what we were doing? Kyle, John, Darryl, Joe and I have been giving verse after verse from James and the rest of scripture AND we have provided commentary to explain the context and we have shown that what is written in James does not contradict the rest of scripture. Is there another way to debate scripture other than using scripture?

[Robert R. Higby]

I believe that that the implications of certain verses have been deliberately avoided and whitewashed. "He was called God's friend" (Irenaeus)!

[Mickey]

I believe that that the implications of certain verses have been deliberately avoided and whitewashed. "He was called God's friend" (Irenaeus)!

I'm not seeing what the problem is. So you think that Irenaeus added this? If so do you have proof? Also this verse hasn't been brought up yet, unless I just missed it, so I would not say it has been avoided.

[Whammer]

ASSURANCE

How does one know they have believed the gospel?

The Spirit gives assurance, and good works are always used by God to produce this assurance!

What do I mean? I have in mind the following verses of scripture to make an assertion that the above answer to the question is true. The righteousness of the saints is not like “The emperor’s New Clothing”.

In Rev. 6:9-11…….a sentence……..Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
What is the white robe? I believe it is symbolic of what is to follow, and that it is real and can be seen by all at one time or another……either in this life or the one to come.

Luke 18:19………And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good…EXCEPT GOD ALONE!

Eph. 2:10…………For we are His workmanship, created in CHRIST JESUS for good works, which GOD PREPARED BEFOREHAND, that we should walk in them.

Gal. 5:16-26 with a focus on 22-23……..But the fruit of the Spirit (Spirit’s fruit) is love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Phil. 2:13…………..For it is GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU….BOTH TO WILL AND TO WORK FOR HIS GOOD PLEASURE.

Phil. 3:2-16 with a focus on 9…….and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, THE RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM GOD that depends on faith……..

All the verses that were put forth in this thread earlier that speak of good works, keeping commandments, faith, are all connected to verses like these.
If there is no evidence of faith (barring those death bed conversions or infant deaths…….God knows, I don’t) then there is no salvation to correspond to it or produce it. I am speaking with reference to those who profess to know Christ and be of the flock of sheep…outwardly.
I personally have never done a good work in my life, and when I die or if Christ comes first, I will have never done a good work then either…….I have no good works that originate from me, and I also reject the false doctrine that grace is infused into to me and thereby assisting me in doing good works that really become my own righteous deeds.
So how does this next passage fit into what I am trying to say…………Matt. 5:16…….
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and GIVE GLORY TO YOUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN.
How does the scripture call these good works ours/yours/mine? The answer is obvious when one looks at Who the glory belongs to……..They are graciously called ours by God who attributes them to us by virtue of His Son.
The good works that were prepared before the world was even created are God’s works, His alone that he has given, IN CHRIST, to the saints to walk in. 1 Cor. 4:7 ….what do you have that you did not receive……..
The good works that appear in our lives are those of the Holy Spirit, they are not our own by any intrinsic ability in us to perform them……..this is what the doctrine of the “imputation of Christ’s righteousness” means. Christ’s works plus nothing = salvation……period.

Now see further the graciousness of God in Matt. 25:14-23, where God says to us, His sheep, “well done, good and faithful servant” after the time of the judgement………speaking to us as if we had done those good works in our own strength with materials of our own making………what grace here too!
Phil. 4:13……..I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me
So I think to wrap up this short thought, I would leave off with 2 Pet. 1:3-11 and say this, those who profess a faith like ours, must have the fruit to back it up. Faith and repentance both have fruit, because they are gifts to the elect of God the Holy Spirit and this is His doing. There is only One who does good, and His works are given to us to be seen by others…otherwise, the glory due God will be lacking, in that there are no good works to give Him the credit for in us by others, whether it be angels or men.
Are we saved by good works……..absolutely! Was Christ’s death on the cross a good work…..absolutely! Was all His fulfillment of the law good works………absolutely! Is His role as our High Priest a good work………absolutely! Are there any good works of other mere men whereby we are saved………absolutely not!

In my opinion, 2 of the 3 questions need to have re-worded, better answers, I for one do not want any arminians coming across our forum, reading our profiles and looking at the questions and stumbling further into slandering us as to merely having the same mental assent that devils do as to what faith is and what assurance is in Christ, as if we don’t believe holiness is a God-produced fruit in the elect’s lives. Lets be clear about this……..let the accusation that we say “lets sin that grace may abound” be a false one, but definitely one we hear.

[lionovjudah]

I ask that everyone read this wonderful lesson taught by Bunyan

http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.John.B...he.Reader.html

Read the whole lesson, below in an excerpt.

This is exactly what james is combating.


TO THE READER.

OURTEOUS READER,

I have written to thee now about the Barren Fig-tree, or how it will fare with the fruitless professor that standeth in the vineyard of God. Of what complexion thou art I cannot certainly divine; but the parable tells thee that the cumber- ground must be cut down. A cumber-ground professor is not only a provocation to God, a stumbling-block to the world, and a blemish to religion, but a snare to his own soul also. 'Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds, yet he shall perish for ever, like his own dung; they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?' (Job 20:6,7).

Now 'they count it pleasure to riot in the daytime.' But what will they do when the axe is fetched out? (2 Peter 2:13,14).

The tree whose fruit withereth is reckoned a tree without fruit, a tree twice dead, one that must be 'plucked up by the roots' (Jude 12).

O thou cumber-ground, God expects fruit, God will come seeking fruit shortly.

My exhortation, therefore, is to professors that they look to it, that they take heed.

The barren fig-tree in the vineyard, and the bramble in the wood, are both prepared for the fire.

Profession is not a covert to hide from the eye of God; nor will it palliate the revengeful threatening of his justice; he will command to cut it down shortly.

The church, and a profession, are the best of places for the upright, but the worst in the world for the cumber-ground. He must be cast, as profane, out of the mount of God: cast, I say, over the wall of the vineyard, there to wither; thence to be gathered and burned. 'It had ben better for them not to have known the way of righteousness' (2 Peter 2:21). And yet if they had not, they had been damned; but it is better to go to hell without, than in, or from under a profession. These 'shall receive greater damnation' (Luke 20:47).

If thou be a professor, read and tremble: if thou be profane, do so likewise. For if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinners appear? Cumber- ground, take heed of the axe! Barren fig-tree, beware of the fire!

But I will keep thee no longer out of the book. Christ Jesus, the dresser of the vineyard, take care of thee, dig about thee, and dung thee, that thou mayest bear fruit; that when the Lord of the vineyard cometh with his axe to seek for fruit, or pronounce the sentence of damnation on the barren fig-tree, thou mayest escape that judgment. The cumber- ground must to the wood-pile, and thence to the fire. Farewell.

Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus in sincerity. Amen.

[Forester07]

I believe that that the implications of certain verses have been deliberately avoided and whitewashed. "He was called God's friend" (Irenaeus)!

I don't see how this has any bearing. The first person to call Abraham God's Friend wasn't Irenaeus and it wasn't James.

2Ch 20:7 Did you not, our God, drive out the inhabitants of this land before your people Israel, and give it forever to the descendants of Abraham your friend?

Just an observation.

[Brandan Kraft]

Faith IS assurance. Good works are not assurance. To deny faith as assurance and claim works as assurance is to in effect in my opinion to deny the Gospel. There is nothing to distinguish one from a conditional primitive baptist if you believe assurance comes by good works.

[jmgipson]

Faith IS assurance. Good works are not assurance. To deny faith as assurance and claim works as assurance is to in effect in my opinion to deny the Gospel. There is nothing to distinguish one from a conditional primitive baptist if you believe assurance comes by good works.

But what I don't understand Brandan is what does faith look like? If there is no desire for the study of God's Word, to Love the Lord with all my soul, to Love my wife sacrificially, to have compassion on the poor and widows, then how can you see this faith for assurance. I guess what I am saying is this work of the spirit (which are the works chosen for us to do) in us doing these things are our assurance. Are they not?

John

[beloved57]

Faith IS assurance. Good works are not assurance. To deny faith as assurance and claim works as assurance is to in effect in my opinion to deny the Gospel. There is nothing to distinguish one from a conditional primitive baptist if you believe assurance comes by good works.

Faith is the assurance (I concede to that), look at heb 11: 1 , Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence( assurance) of things not seen.

But it produces obediance to the sovereign will of God, you wanr proof, look at heb vs 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Good works manifest evidence of true God given faith its all over scripture.

[Robert R. Higby]

I'm not seeing what the problem is. So you think that Irenaeus added this? If so do you have proof?

No, I'm saying that the first known historical occurrence of the expression 'and he was called God's friend' added to the biblical reference is in Irenaeus. I provided this evidence in the canon thread and do not have time right now to go back and look it up. If/when we get back to a canon discussion again I will re-present it.

Also this verse hasn't been brought up yet, unless I just missed it, so I would not say it has been avoided.

The 'justification by men' theory focuses on verses 14-20 and doesn't like to have to do detailed exegesis of verses 21-16 as they relate to the prior verses. When we get back to this discussion, I'm saying that it will focus on vs. 21-26 as the primary issue. Although I attempted, I was not able to get responses on the implications of the actual words of 21-26 in the canon thread. I'm not going to go there again right now, however.

[Robert R. Higby]

Good works manifest evidence of true God given faith its all over scripture.

Such evidence is not the same thing as assurance. A person without faith can still perform external works similar to those of a Christian.

The point of Hebrews is that these works were performed BY FAITH. Not that performance of them gave assurance to a soul that 'faith alone' could otherwise not give.

[Brandan Kraft]

Assurance is nothing more than experiential justification. When a Christian comes to KNOW the truth (faith) - the Spirit graciously gives knowledge that their sins were taken care of IN CHRIST ALONE.

So Assurance or JUSTIFICATION (in the Conscience) is BY FAITH ALONE! To say that Assurance is by works is in effect TO DENY THE GOSPEL. ALL OF YOU WHO SAY THAT ASSURANCE IS BY WORKS - SHAME ON YOU! SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME!

Rom 5:1, (KJV), Therefore being justified (given assurance) by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Gal 3:24, (KJV), Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified (given assurance) by faith.

Gal 3:11, (KJV), But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. (NOT WORKS!)

Rom 3:28, (KJV), Therefore we conclude that a man is justified (given assurance) by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 3:1, (KJV), O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

CHRIST IS MY ASSURANCE! CHRIST ALONE - ASSURANCE GIVEN BY CHRIST ALONE THROUGH FAITH ALONE!

http://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=400

Assurance by Grace Alone through Faith Alone

How does a Christian receive assurance that He is numbered amongst the elect and that Christ has made satisfaction for him? This is easy, but believe it or not the answer will often draw the charge of hyper-calvinism! The answer is that assurance and faith are inexorably tied to one another. If a person has faith that Christ has made satisfaction for him, then this individual should also have hope and assurance that they are saved. While I believe there are degrees of assurance, for example, there may be times in the Christian’s life that his assurance may seem weak or completely non-existent. Yet if the believer finds that his assurance has vanished, he can always rest upon the hope that God gives all of His children in sanctification and conversion. If an individual has ever communed with Christ, that is he has enjoyed fellowship with Christ and has experienced the joy of having his sins removed, then quite simply, his hope based on certainty should produce assurance that his status has not changed at all. Christ does not remove his promises based on the performance of the individual, nor will He take away an individual’s assurance based on their performance. Furthermore, Christ does not commune with unbelievers! Nothing can separate me from the love of Christ, and that includes my own actions as well. Yet there are some that teach you need to do good works in order to know that you’re a Christian. What these people fail to realize is that a Christian who has experienced Grace will be irresistibly moved toward obedience. His heart will be overrun with joy and he will not be able to help but perform good works in service to his Savior. Yet, the Christian does not rejoice in his works as he sees them as filthy rags. He realizes that he can never compete with Christ, the perfect standard of righteousness. He brings all that he has to the table, but realizes his standing before God is perfect based on the imputed righteousness of Christ. As a Christian, if I had to determine if I was a Christian or not based upon my works of obedience, I’d have to conclude I am not a Christian.

[melted]

Brandan, you can say I deny the gospel if you like, I suppose. I believe what the Bible says.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

1 John 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

1 John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

2 Pet 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble

Faith brings assurance through knowledge and works (real faith begets good works). When we obey God's commandments we can be more greatly assured that we are His. This is what Scripture says so it's also what I say.

[GraceAmbassador]

Brandan, you can say I deny the gospel if you like, I suppose. I believe what the Bible says.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

1 John 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

1 John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

2 Pet 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble

Faith brings assurance through knowledge and works (real faith begets good works). When we obey God's commandments we can be more greatly assured that we are His. This is what Scripture says so it's also what I say.

Dear Brother Kyle:

Again the question was not directed to me but let me point out to you the word "brethren" and "we" in the text; that makes a whole world of difference... There is a premise of what we already are...

It is only "the brethren" and the "we" who know that we have passed from death and this can be evidenced by their love

The second verse is self evident: We know that He abides in us by the Spirit whom HE HAS GIVEN US. Of course you know that John is not saying that "doing things" gives us knowledge that we are of Christ, but the Holy Spirit is our witness; therefore John is not contradicting himself or confused about "justification by faith and works" neither is teaching it.

The other two verses of John do speak of the evidence of "coming to know Him". Yes, when we keep His commandments we know that we have matured in faith, or come to know Him. Note "we know that we come to know Him, or we know that we know. The assurance here is that we "know that we know". I hope no one is speaking here about assurance of Salvation by demonstrated works lest those who practice their works in secret, following Jesus' command would not be cut off because their works are secret and they expect their reward in secret.

The text of Peter speaks of an evidence to ourselves. "These things" obviously is not a generic term and it is explained in the context itself. Peter says that "practicing these things" we will never stumble. The assurance here is to be free from "stumbling". This has to be analyzed in the context of the theme of the Epistles of Peter. Stumbling from what?

These are good scripturers worthy of pondering, but they do not explain and are far, far away from "therefore a man is not justfied by his faith alone, but by works".

John and Peter could very well have enforced James doctrine about "justification by works and faith as a combination" right when they were expressing the duties of the believers. The did not! James or his "ghost writer", perahaps one of his disciples, one of the "party of James", is/are the only one/ones who teach this in the N.T. In other words, "James" is the only one who combines "justification by works and faith".

I wish we could focus on the "sinergy between works and faith to justify us" proposed by James in my view. Our debate would be a lot more profitable and enjoyable if we would discuss whether James is saying that a man is not "justified before God" if his works are not seen, visible, perceptible, tangible, palpable and measurable or even inexistent. I propose he is! That should be our focus.

Thansk for the scriptures!

Milt