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Thread: Eternal Imputation

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    debtor2 is on a distinguished road
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    Eternal Imputation

    Study Paper No. 8

    Eternal Imputation

    The subject of this study is PRE-CREATIVE Imputation. In pre-creative eternity the Holy Trinity, Elohem, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, the Three Equal, Self-Existing Divine Beings, pure spirits, in Whom the One Divine Essence dwells equally, did DECRETIVELY impute unto Jesus Christ, in His Sacred Humanity, the sins of all God’s little children. They did receive from Him, the merits of His imputed righteousness. The theology of eternal imputation deals only with elect men and women, and not with the elect angels who were confirmed in Christ as their Federal Head, but were not redeemed by Him.

    The Blessings of Eternal Divine Love
    In union with the theology of eternal, imputation, is eternal justification and eternal, vital union with Jesus Christ and Eternal Love. The Eternal Love of God is only in Christ Jesus and therefore those who are in Christ are the only objects of eternal, divine love.

    John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
    24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
    25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
    26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

    Jer. 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

    Rom. 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    No person outside of Christ, in a decretive manner from pre-creative eternity, or in a temporal manner, is the object of God’s love. The same is true of justification. These blessings stand alone in Christ and His securements as our Mediator and Surety.

    The Foundation of Eternal, Vital Union
    Eternal, Vital Union is manifested and stands because the Father gave unto His only begotten Son, His created little children.

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
    3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
    6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
    7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
    8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
    9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

    The Imputation of Sin to Christ in Pre-Creative Eternity
    The very fact that Christ did stand, in pre-creative eternity, as the Lamb of God already slain, shows that Christ did receive the wages of sin or death, before all creation, in a decretive manner. He received these wages of sin for His people on the Cross in an experimental or temporal manner.

    When the Holy Trinity did impute the sins of God’s people unto Christ in pre-creative eternity, they did this in a judicial manner. Christ did decretively receive by imputation the sins of His brothers and sisters before all creation. It therefore follows that the very existence of His brothers and sisters in time was already fixed and sure. In many other actions of God’s love and grace the existence of the elect in their natural state is seen as sure and certain. One of these is when the Father gave unto the Son all of the elect, before the foundation of the world. In this manner, the elect are seen as sure and certain in their natural state in this present, evil world.

    The Certain Existence of the Elect and their Sins
    However, the sins of God’s elect and the elect are two different things. While the elect stood as sure and certain before all creation, their sins did also stand by imputation unto Christ as the slain Lamb from the foundation of the world. Under God, the wages of sin is death. It must follow that sin did bring forth death upon our Lord Jesus Christ, decretively, before the foundation of the world, or He would not have stood as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    No Uncertainty about Christ’s Death
    Did Christ die for anyone who might not exist? I do not believe so. The very fact that election and reprobation were set and firm before all creation shows the sure and certain existence of both the elect and the reprobates in this present evil world. The decretive slaying of Christ before creation shows that the imputed sins of God’s people were also sure and certain before all creation. If this is not true then we must distinguish between Christ dying for the elect, and then someone else dying for their sins. Who then would die for the sins of the elect if Christ did not do so? Do we hold that the elect must suffer and die for their own sins, or did Christ die not only for the elect, but their sins as well? In what way did Christ die for the sins of His people if not in a judicial manner?

    Once we establish from the Scriptures that Christ did die in a judicial manner for the sins of His people, then we establish the theology of eternal imputation. Did Christ die for the sins of His people or only for His people?

    Christ Died for the Sins of His People
    Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

    Hebrews 5:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

    Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

    Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

    1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

    Christ did die for His people and He did lay down His life for His Sheep. He did so for their sins as well.

    The Theology of Imputation
    Because the Scriptures teach us that Christ did die for the sins of His people, and that the wages of sin is death, and that Christ did stand as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, the consequence of these three points is; the sins of Christ’s people were placed upon Christ by imputation, decretively, before all creation, and, they did decretively slay Him before all creation.

    Christ Did Offer for His Own Sins by Imputation
    Please note this very carefully, Paul teaches us that Christ did, as the High Priests of olden times before Him did, offer a sacrifice for HIS OWN SINS AS WELL AS FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE. How did the spotless Lamb of God have HIS OWN SINS? ONLY BY IMPUTATION AND THIS IMPUTATION OF THE SINS OF HIS PEOPLE, HE RECEIVED BEFORE ALL CREATION ONLY IN A DECRETIVE MANNER.

    Hebrews 5:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
    Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
    Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    Christ Blessings Imputed unto His Brother and Sisters
    Because Christ did receive the sins of His people before all creation, decretively, by imputation, it also follows that His people receive the merits of Christ’s active and passive obedience, the imputation of Christ’s righteousness unto them, their justification by His blood, and their reconciliation back unto their Father WHEN He died on the Cross. They received these blessings decretively before all creation. Christ’s brothers and sisters receive these blessing experimentally in this present evil world. These experienced blessings give unto God’s little children the knowledge of their salvation by the remission of their sins.

    Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

    Please note by Paul’s statements:

    2 Cor. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    The Exactness between Eternity and Timely Existence and Events
    All that Christ worked out and earned in time for His sheep, and they receive from His merits, the Holy Trinity did decretively establish before all creation. The reason that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, in time, is because God did decree to do so before all creation. Even so, God made Christ to be sin for us in time because He did so decretively before all creation. With the imputation of the sins of God’s people unto Christ, He stood as the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the world.

    Not only did Christ receive our sins by imputation in a decretive manner before all creation, but we, the elect of God, received Christ’s merits imputed unto us in the same manner, by the same Covenant Engagements, before all creation. These points taken together establish, in my opinion, the theology of an eternal, imputation between Christ and His sheep according to the stipulations and agreements entered into between the Father and the Son before all creation as set forth in the Covenant of Peace and Redemption.

    Numbers 25:12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
    Ezekiel 34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
    Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
    Heb. 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
    21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    Col. 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
    20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

    Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

    Suggested studies, God in Christ, taken from Edward Drapes, The Invisible Worship of God, (particular Baptist Minister of the Glasshouse Church in London) about 1647, God in Christ, by a Debtor to Mercy; and Christ Slain from the Foundation of the World, an Enlarged Study, by a Debtor to Mercy.

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  2. #2
    Kentucky Kid will become famous soon enough Kentucky Kid's Avatar
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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Ron, I say amen & that I also believe in Eternal Imputation. Even though you said to be careful to read- you stated (paraphrase): "Christ did offer a sacrifice for His own sins"; which you meant they were His own sins by imputaton of the elect's sins. Maybe we could discuss that area more; even by imputation of the elect's sins, I'm not ready to say as you did "His own sins". Maybe it is just a question of semantics. But I believe this whole universe exists with it's main purpose that God would glorify Himself thru redeeming His elect thru Christ. Everything else is subservient to that one truth. That is why everything in time happens in time, to fulfill this one truth............I rejoice in the doctrine of eternal imputation even if few others do!.......KK

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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by debtor2


    Christ Did Offer for His Own Sins by Imputation

    Please note this very carefully, Paul teaches us that Christ did, as the High Priests of olden times before Him did, offer a sacrifice for HIS OWN SINS AS WELL AS FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE. How did the spotless Lamb of God have HIS OWN SINS? ONLY BY IMPUTATION AND THIS IMPUTATION OF THE SINS OF HIS PEOPLE, HE RECEIVED BEFORE ALL CREATION ONLY IN A DECRETIVE MANNER.


    Finish
    I just read this post this morning too, this statement troubles me, it sounds like the "was Christ made sin" thread where Fortner was exposed as teaching that damnable doctrine. Debtor2, is this a quote, did you put these words in bold for any specific reason? I am wondering like KK what you are saying here yourself....what is your belief? Are these your words or the one you are quoting?

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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer
    I just read this post this morning too, this statement troubles me, it sounds like the "was Christ made sin" thread where Fortner was exposed as teaching that damnable doctrine. Debtor2, is this a quote, did you put these words in bold for any specific reason? I am wondering like KK what you are saying here yourself....what is your belief? Are these your words or the one you are quoting?
    There is no way that Ron believes like Don Fortner on this issue. I would be shocked if he aligned himself with such heretics that teach that sin was infused into Christ. What Ron is describing here is the burden and the suffering that was placed upon Christ. The weight and consequences of sin upon Christ were real - but it wasn't an experience of sin being in His person as Fortner teaches.

    Further, in light of the article - the imputation is an accounting in the mind of God. God accounted Christ as the substitute for His people before the foundation of the world. Christ's people were accounted as righteous before the foundation of the world. A denial of this wondeful doctrine as taught here by Ron is in effect a denial of the immutability of God for starters and would make the Almighty subject to His own creation.
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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    I did not get the impression either from anything in the article that Ron was teaching the impartation of sin to Christ. Everything stated has to do with the fact that sin was imputed to Christ.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

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    debtor2 is on a distinguished road
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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS, THANK YOU DEAR BROTHERS FOR SPEAKING ON THIS SUBJECT. MY POSTION IS AS BROTHERS BRADFORD AND ROBERT HAVE STATED IT. I ABHOR THE CONCEPT THAT CHRIST RECEIVED SIN, IN ANY WAY BUT BY IMPUTATION. I ALSO ABHOR THE TEACHING THAT CHRIST RECEIVED A SINFUL AND FALLEN HUMAN BODY OR NATURE FROM MARY. ACTUALLY THE CONCEPT THAT CHRIST RECEIVED A SINFUL AND FALEN HUMAN NATURE IS THE FORERUNNER TO THE MODERN DAY CONCEPT YOU BRETHREN ALSO ABHOR. EDWARD IRVING MADE THAT TERRIBLE CONCEPT POPULAR. SOME ENGLISH PARTICULAR BAPTISTS TOOK IT UP AND RAN WITH IT. MOST OF THE BRETHREN ADHORED SUCH A TEACHING AND DENOUNCED IT. BUT IT HAS DESCENDENTS IN TODAY'S TEACHINGS AS YOU BRETHREN WELL KNOW.

    I NEED ALL THE HELP ANY OF YOUR DEAR BRETHREN WANT TO GIVE TO ME ON THIS ISSUE, THE EXPRESSION, SINS OF HIS OR OR FOR HIS OWN SINS, IS IN REFERENCE TO PAUL'S STATEMENTS FROM HEBREWS.

    I BELIEVE THE SINS OF THE ELECT BECAME CHRIST'S SINS ONLY BY IMPUTATION AND THIS IS A RESULT OF THEIR UNION WITH CHRIST IN AN ETERNAL, ESSENTIAL UNION. OTHERS HAVE SAID THAT THE TERM VITAL MAY BE MISLEADING HERE, SO LET ME SAY THAT I MEAN VITAL OR ESSENTIAL UNION. MY GREATEST DELIGHT IN READING THEOLOGY IS DR. CRIPST, DR. GILL'S EDITION OF DR. CRIPST'S WORKS.

    DECRETIVELY SPEAKING WHEN CHRIST RECEIVED THE FATHER'S PEOPLE AS HIS SPOUSE, HE AND THEY BECAME ONE IN ETERNAL, ESSENTIAL UNION, JUST AS A HUSBAND AND WIFE ARE ONE, AND BY THIS UNION, HE TOOK UPOM HIMSELF ALL THEIR SINS BY IMPUTATION AND AS THEIR HUSBAND AND SURETY, STOOD GOOD FOR ALL HIS SPOUSE AND ALL THEIR SINS. BECASE WE, IN THE WESTERN WORLD, HAVE SEEN THE MARRIATE STATE BECOME SO CORRUPTED, WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND PROPERLY THE PLACE OF THE HUSBAND AND HIS WORK TOWARD AND FOR HIS SPOUSE.

    THE SPOUSE BECAME HIS BY UNION AND HER DEBTS AND OBLIGATIONS ALSO BECAME HIS.

    HERE IS THE PART THAT I FEEL I NEED HELP UPON, EVEN MORE, THE HIGH PRIEST MADE THE OFFERING FIRST FOR HIS OWN SINS, AND THEN FOR THE PEOPLE. IN MY OPINION, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST MADE THE ATONEMENT FOR THE SINS OF HIS PEOPLE THAT WERE ON HIM ONLY BY IMPUTATION, AND THEN HE CLEANSED HIS PEOPLE IN THE SAME ACT.

    ANOTHER WAY OF SEEING THIS, IS THAT CHRIST SANCTIFIED HIMSELF FIRST THAT HIS PEOPLE MIGHT BE ALSO SANCTIFIED. IN MY OPINION IF WE DENY THAT CHRIST RECEIVED THE SINS OF HIS SPOUSE BY IMPUTATION, THEN WE DO SERIOUS DAMAGE TO THE DOCTRINE OF THE ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST.

    IN MY OPINION, THE TYPOLOGY OF THE PRIESTS AND HIS OWN SINS, PRESENTS TO US A PICTURE OF CHRIST'S RECEIVING OUR SINS, NOT JUST US, BUT ONLY BY IMPUTATION. ONCE WE SEE THE JUDICIAL SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST DECRETIVELY BEFORE ALL CERATION THEN IT FOLLOWS THAT BOTH CHRIST POUSE AND THEIR SINS WERE SURE AND CERTAIN IN THE DECREES OF GOD. IF WE ONCE FORSAKE THE CONCEPT THAT SINS WERE DECREATIVELY PUT ON CHRIST BY IMPUTATION BEFORE ALL CREATION THEN WE LOSE SIGHT OF THE JUDICIAL SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST IN THE ROOM AND PLACE OF HIS SPOUSE. IF THIS PART OF ATONEMENT IS FORSAKEN, THEN WE WILL HAVE TO SUFFER ALSO FOR OUR OWN SINS IN A JUDICIAL MANNER.

    I FEEL THAT WHEN WE DEVIATE AWAY FROM THE HISTORIC PARTICULAR BAPTIST CONCEPT, AND THE BIBLICAL ONE AS WELL, THAT CHRIST BECAME SINS FOR US BY IMPUTATION ONLY, EVEN BEFORE ALL CREATION AND FORFITED HIS LIFE AND STOOD AS OUR SURETY DECRETIVELY, THEN WE HAVE ENTERED INTO SERIOUS ERROR AND REALLY DO NOT HAVE A PROPER UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRUE AND PURE HUMANITY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE ATONEMENT OR THE DECREES OF GOD.

    THANK YOU DEAR BROTHERS FOR SPEAKING TO THIS POINT, AND PLEASE DO OFFER MORE HELPS AS YOU FEEL BLESSED TO DO SO. RON.

    ps. if it would be okay, I am reviewing the Trinity position of many of the older Particular Baptists, and I will be happy to share my studies here as I do on my own fellowship group. Involved in these Trinity discussions are serious false teachings concerning the Eternal Word, and the Lord Jesus Christ in His Office and Work as the Mediator of the Everlasting Covenant. Many both in England and America who shalped shape the LOW GRACE VIEWS of the rising generations of Particular Baptists were not true Trinitarians at all, but SABELLIANS. This was a shock to me.

    I have said the above to show that those who are in error on the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ have serious errors about the Trinity of the Great Elohem as well. Thas has been true through history and I feel certain that it is true today.

    My Trinity views are the Divine Economy consists of God the Father, God the Word and God the Holy Spirit while the Unity of the Glorious Elohem consists of the One Divine Nature or Substance dwelling within each of the Three Divine Beings in an equal manner.

    I know the subject ot the Trinity may seem a bit off course here, but serious Trinity departures manifest themselves with serious departures from the Biblical and historical faith about our Lord Jesus Christ both in His precious Humanity and His glorious Ingenerate Deity.

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    debtor2 is on a distinguished road
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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Please excuse my usage of full caps so often, I do this due to my failing eyesight. It seems to help me while I am typing and I do not mean I am holloring. May the Lord bless us all as we study together.

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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Dear Brother KK, thank you for your kind and loving note. This is indeed a glorious and heartwarming doctrine. Thank you for your question. I should be more careful when I am talking like this, but I do not have the exchange with others that many have, therefore I do not always seem to state things as plainly as I should.

    Christ received not only the Father's little children, supralapsarian union, but also He received their debts or sins as well and took them upon Himself. This He did so ONLY BY IMPUTATION, even as we receive the benefits of His rightsounsess ONLY BY IMPUTATION in this present evil world. Christ became one with our sins by imputation so strongly that He was able to suffer for them in a judicial manner and properly discharge all we owe to divine justice. As a reuslt Divine Vengence will not be take from us and our Suerty both for our sins. He suffered fully for them and we will not.

    By this imputated sustitution our sins became as Christ's sins even as His righteouness becames our righteousness. THIS IS ALL ONLY BY IMPUTATION.

    If we believe that Christ received our sins by implantation then we can just as well believe that we receive Christ'r righteousness by IMPLATATION as well. iF SO THAT WOULD MAKE US AS GOOD AND HOLY AS CHRIST IS IN THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD.

    Such a thing I deny and abhor, Christ would no longer have the pre-emenice among the creation and many other wonderful concepts would be denied.

    Thank you dear brother for your comments, Ron.

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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Dear Brother Whammer, thank you dear brother for touching further on this wonderul subject. Yes I placed them in full caps for special consideration. The reference is unto the typology that Christ fulfilled when Paul pointed that the Priest made an offering first for himself and then for the people.

    Christ made an offering for Himself in that He removed from Himself, by His sufferings and death, the sins of His people imputed unto Him. Death could not claim Christ, nor did His body see corruption, because He made a full release of all the sins of His people placed upon Him decreatively, by IMPUTATION, before all cration. He then released His people from the prison house of Satan.

    In my opinion the atonement consists both of the removal of sins from the elect, and their release from the capativty of Satan.

    In no way did Christ receive sinful and fallen human nature from Mary, nor did God implant sins into Christ. Either doctrine I consider to be in error.

    The subject of the substitutionary, various sufferings of Christ has become so openely denied by most today that I always try to enforce that doctrine when dealing with the Death of Christ.

    BY IMPUTATION, not implantation, CHRIST RECEIVED THE SINS OF HIS PEOPLE, AND BY THIS UNION WITH HIS SPOUSE, AND BY THIS IMPUTATION OF THEIR SINS UNTO HIM, THEIR SINS DID DECRETIVELY BY IMPUTATION BECOME HIS.

    He did made a judicial sacrifice for His People and for their Sins as well. I deny the moral concept of the atonement and all other concepts that would take away from the judicial, substitutionary atonement. When we realize that Christ did actually suffer for the sins of His people as if they were His own sins, NOT BY IMPLANTATION OR ACTUAL PRACTICE BUT ONLY by imputation, then we are blessed to understand that we will not suffer for them. Thank you dear brother for further thoughts on this glorious Christ-centered theology. Ron.
    Last edited by debtor2; 04-17-2006 at 07:53 AM.

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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    There is no way that Ron believes like Don Fortner on this issue. I would be shocked if he aligned himself with such heretics that teach that sin was infused into Christ. What Ron is describing here is the burden and the suffering that was placed upon Christ. The weight and consequences of sin upon Christ were real - but it wasn't an experience of sin being in His person as Fortner teaches.

    Further, in light of the article - the imputation is an accounting in the mind of God. God accounted Christ as the substitute for His people before the foundation of the world. Christ's people were accounted as righteous before the foundation of the world. A denial of this wondeful doctrine as taught here by Ron is in effect a denial of the immutability of God for starters and would make the Almighty subject to His own creation.
    Ron made it clear to me in his post, and I thank him. And I think you know Brandan I do believe the doctrine of EJ very clearly, as evidenced in my very first posts on the forum.

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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Bryan, I am aware of your position.
    Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!

    "Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.

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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Thank you brother Ron for being so clear, that Christ had our sins IMPUTED ONLY to Him. This answers any question I may have with you brother.....I enjoy your posts. And feel free to write in CAPS if it helps you- we can bear with it! The reason why I wanted to be sure you believed in "IMPUTATION ONLY" is because I attend a Sovereign Grace Baptist church which used to have a fellowship with 20? (I'm guessing) other Sovereign Grace Baptist churches; now they are split because some believe that 1. Our sins where imparted to Christ, therefore that christ is a sinner 2. Christ's righteousness is imparted to us- therefore they believe they are sinless in the "new man" 3. some would then state that Christ's righteousness alone is an insufficient ground of salvation. I've heard these three doctrines preached, and I've seen them in print. These to me are some of the most horrific God dishonoring doctrines I've ever heard from any sinner. So that is why I asked for clarification. The church I attend split right down the middle over these three issues. So thank you bro Ron for your response. Keep posting bro- I know I'm not the only one saying Amen!........KK

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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Dear KK, thank you dear brother for your kind and loving post. I can understand your feelings about these issues and agree fully with you. John warned us about those who do not bring the doctrine of Christ, and said we were not to receive them, or bid them Godspeed. I agree fully that these three points are a part of another gospel.

    I am really at a loss as to what many in this modern age do believe, or why they beleive it, as I do not consdier contemporary preachers and writers very much, so your explination is a great help to me. I had heard the name of the man in question before, and then later hereon I read brother Anthony's article about the issue. All this is sad to behold as there are so few today who really do stand for the high grace, and justification by Christ alone position. Thank you again dear brother, and may the Lord bless you and your dear family, Ron.

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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Ron:

    Getting back to the original premise of this thread, my denial of eternal imputation/justification as expressed here and by Gill as ""I mean more by justification from eternity than merely God's prescience, or fore-knowledge of it; God's will, decree, or purpose, to justify his elect, is the eternal justification of them." is based on the following issues.

    1) It appears that the elect had an actual existence in eternity.

    2) the problem of blending the promise of an act with its actual existence

    3) There is no remission without the shedding of blood as mentioned in Hebrews 9. And since Christ did not posess a body prior to the incarnation, there was no blood shedding

    4) RomaNS 3:25 PRESENTS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM TO THIS THEORY.

    How can it be confessed by you and others that God execercised forebearance for sins that were already covered prior ro their existence.

    I know I am repeating what I have said in previous posts, but I will stand with Trott and Richardson on this. I am sure you have read their writings against such belief as you have penned.


    Joe
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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    Ron:

    Getting back to the original premise of this thread, my denial of eternal imputation/justification as expressed here and by Gill as ""I mean more by justification from eternity than merely God's prescience, or fore-knowledge of it; God's will, decree, or purpose, to justify his elect, is the eternal justification of them." is based on the following issues.

    1) It appears that the elect had an actual existence in eternity.

    2) the problem of blending the promise of an act with its actual existence

    3) There is no remission without the shedding of blood as mentioned in Hebrews 9. And since Christ did not posess a body prior to the incarnation, there was no blood shedding

    4) RomaNS 3:25 PRESENTS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM TO THIS THEORY.

    How can it be confessed by you and others that God execercised forebearance for sins that were already covered prior ro their existence.

    I know I am repeating what I have said in previous posts, but I will stand with Trott and Richardson on this. I am sure you have read their writings against such belief as you have penned.


    Joe

    Aren't all these answered by considering them already being completed in God's mind in eternity regardless of our perception of temporal reality? Doesn't God ALREADY view these things complete and has ALWAYS viewed these things complete regardless of temporality?

    It seems to me that a lot of confusion enters when we attempt to assign some kind of temporal nature to eternity because our nature is linear.

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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by rlhuckle
    Aren't all these answered by considering them already being completed in God's mind in eternity regardless of our perception of temporal reality? Doesn't God ALREADY view these things complete and has ALWAYS viewed these things complete regardless of temporality?

    It seems to me that a lot of confusion enters when we attempt to assign some kind of temporal nature to eternity because our nature is linear.
    No they are not answered. And I am not the only one who believes this. Unless you want to admit we existed in eternity. Actually and factually. We are not eternal beings. GOd is the only eternal. Viewing them as complete does not equal the actual factual completion of them. So again, to say that since God is eternal, and His ways are not our ways, does not provide an adequate answer to any of my quesitons. His eternal existence is begging the question.

    If the answer to my questions is, "Well God is eternal..." that is weak at best. That I am not denying one second.

    What is again meant by Romans 3:25 then? What did He have to forbear? WHat is meant by that? It means He sovereignly passed over the sins of the saints prior to the death of Christ. Now if these sins were already forgiven, imputed to Christ, then why does Paul state the opposite?


    Did you read the articles by Samuel Trott and Samuel Richardson? Please do.

    http://www.mountzionpbc.org/Index/index08.htm

    http://www.asweetsavor.150m.com/trot...ification.html
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    No they are not answered. And I am not the only one who believes this. Unless you want to admit we existed in eternity. Actually and factually. We are not eternal beings. GOd is the only eternal. Viewing them as complete does not equal the actual factual completion of them. So again, to say that since God is eternal, and His ways are not our ways, does not provide an adequate answer to any of my quesitons. His eternal existence is begging the question.

    If the answer to my questions is, "Well God is eternal..." that is weak at best. That I am not denying one second.

    What is again meant by Romans 3:25 then? What did He have to forbear? WHat is meant by that? It means He sovereignly passed over the sins of the saints prior to the death of Christ. Now if these sins were already forgiven, imputed to Christ, then why does Paul state the opposite?


    Did you read the articles by Samuel Trott and Samuel Richardson? Please do.

    http://www.mountzionpbc.org/Index/index08.htm

    http://www.asweetsavor.150m.com/trot...ification.html

    I believe all existed in the mind of God (Rom 8;29-30--what did God foreknow if He did not consider who each of us would be?). Was Romans 8:29-30 true of each of us when Paul wrote it--or when God decreed it? It appears that you would have to deny God could 'know' us intimately until we inhabit the flesh temporally. Since God is outside of time, all is complete to Him but not in our perception.

    I'm not sure what you are trying to say regarding Rom 3:25. It again appears that you are ascribing a temporal nature to God's forbearance. To man, Paul says, God forbeared (time word); but what does this actually have to do with God's decretive will and His considering all complete? I haven't read the links, but I will do so.

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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    If it is proposed that these realities can only take place in time, then God in carrying out his essential purposes is limited to operate only within time and space. It is not dangerous but essential to view history as complete in God's mind and purpose transcendent of time; it is extremely dangerous to view history as definitely purposed only within time. If it is not absolutely complete in God's mind and purpose irrespective of when it actually occurs in time, then it is not absolutely predestined but has the potential of not coming to pass.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

  19. #19
    debtor2 is on a distinguished road
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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    REPLY TO JOE ON ETERNAL IMPUTATION

    Joe: thank you for your reply. I am a loss as to who you are replying unto or what you are replying about. Can you comprehend properly what you read? I am not trying to be harsh, but your answers in this reply sure seem to me like you do not comprehend very well what you are reading.

    For an example, what does the term decretively mean to you? Do you know the differences between what God did decretively before creation and what Christ did actually on the Cross?

    Do you realize that God often speaks of things that are not yet, as though they already are?

    Let me address some of your remarks:


    Ron:

    Getting back to the original premise of this thread, my denial of eternal imputation/justification as expressed here and by Gill as ""I mean more by justification from eternity than merely God's prescience, or fore-knowledge of it; God's will, decree, or purpose, to justify his elect, is the eternal justification of them." is based on the following issues.

    RON SAYS; DR. GILL’S DEFINITION IS THE SAME AS I WOULD AFFIRM. IF YOU DENY THIS THEN YOU DENY THE DECREES OF GOD. DO YOU KNOW WHAT WE MEAN WHEN WE SAY THAT GOD DID THINGS DECRETIVELY BEFORE ALL CREATION AND BECAUSE OF GOD’S DECREES THEY DID AND DO ACTUALLY COME TO PASS IN TIME?


    1) It appears that the elect had an actual existence in eternity.

    IF YOU MEAN BY ACTUAL, A BODILY EXISTENCE, NO, BUT YOU EXPLAIN JESUS’ REMARKS WHEN HE SAID, THINE THEY WERE AND THOU HAS GIVEN THEM TO ME….AND ALSO HOW THAT GRACE WAS GIVEN UNTO US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.

    DO YOU DENY THAT THE ELECT HAD EITHER A DECRETIVE EXISTENCE OR A PURE SPIRITUAL EXISTENCE, OR BOTH, BEFORE ALL CREATION?


    2) the problem of blending the promise of an act with its actual existence

    THIS IS MUCH MORE THAN THE PROMISE OF AN ACT, IT IS A DECREED ACT. AND THERE IS NO PROBLEM EXCEPT AMONG THOSE WHO HAVE LITTLE OR NO UNDERSTANDING THAT GOD OFTEN SPEAKS OF THINGS THAT ARE NOT YET, AS THOUGH THEY ALREADY WERE ARE. THIS WE CALL A DECRETIVE EXISTENCE IN DISTINCTION FROM AN ACTUAL EXISTENCE.


    3) There is no remission without the shedding of blood as mentioned in Hebrews 9. And since Christ did not posess a body prior to the incarnation, there was no blood shedding.

    THIS IS MERELY A STRAW MAN OBJECTION AS NO ONE SAID THAT CHRIST SHED HIS BLOOD AND ACTUALLY REMITTED SINS IN PRECREATIVE ETERNITY. AGAIN I ASK YOU, DID YOU READ WHAT I SAID, DID YOU SEE THE WORD DECRETIVELY USED THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE STUDY, MANY, MANY TIMES? I WENT OUT OF THE WAY TO OVER USE THE TERM DECRETIVELY SO OTHERS MIGHT UNDERSTAND WHAT WE WERE DEALING WITH WHEN WE SPEAK OF THE GLORIOUS DOCTRINES OF ETERNAL JUSTIFICATION AND ETERNAL IMPUTATION.

    HOWEVER, DID CHRIST REMIT SINS BEFORE HE DIED ON THE CROSS AND SHED HIS BLOOD? YOUR ANSWER WILL BE INTERESTING.


    4) RomaNS 3:25 PRESENTS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM TO THIS THEORY.

    How can it be confessed by you and others that God execercised forebearance for sins that were already covered prior ro their existence.

    THIS IS NO REAL OBJECTION. WE SAY THIS VERY EASILY BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT GOD DOES DECRETIVELY AND THEN WHAT HE DOES ACTUALLY IN THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD. NO ONE SAYS THAT GOD ACTUALLY COVERED SINS IN ETERNITY, BEFORE ALL CREATION

    AGAIN THIS IS A STRAW MAN OBJECTION, NO ONE SAYS THAT THE SINS OF THE ELECT WERE ALREADY COVERED FROM ALL ETERNITY.

    FURTHERMORE, DID YOU ACTUALLY FALL IN ADAM? PLEASE DO EXPLAIN HOW YOU FELL IN ADAM? Did Christ recover you when He died on the cross though you had no actual existence yet?

    I STRONGLY SUSPECT YOU HAVE MANY, MANY PROBLEMS WITH THE HIGH GRACE POSITION AND I ALSO STRONGLY SUGGEST THAT YOU STOP REPLYING ON THE WRITINGS OF THE AMERICAN PRIMITIVE BAPTISTS FOR YOUR THEOLOGY.

    I know I am repeating what I have said in previous posts, but I will stand with Trott and Richardson on this. I am sure you have read their writings against such belief as you have penned.

    YOU DO STAND WITH WILSON THOMPSON, AND SAMUEL TROUT ON THIS BUT CERTAIN NOT WITH SAMUEL RICHARDSON. RICHARDSON BELIEVED IN THE THEOLOGY OF ETERNAL JUSTIFICATION, BUT NOT IN USING THOSE TERMS AS HE DESPISED THE LANGUAGE OF THE SCHOOL MEN, AS OUR FOREFATHERS THEN CALLED THE PAPAL AND PROTESTANT THEOLOGIANS.

    THANK YOU FOR MISREPRESENTING SAMUEL RICHARD. IT HAD BEEN SEVERAL YEARS SINCE I LAST READ HIS GREAT WORK ON JUSTIFICATION BY CHRIST ALONE, AND AFTER READING YOUR REPLY, AND YOUR MISREPRESENTATION OF RICHARDSON, I WENT BACK AND MADE NOTES ON WHAT HE DID SAY. I WILL PRESENT THE THEOLOGY OF SAMUEL RICHARDSON IN DIFFERENT STUDY, THE LORD WILLING.

    LET ME MAKE THIS POINT, SAMUEL RICHARD, AND THE OTHER BRETHREN OF THAT ERA, DID NOT USE THE TERMS OF SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY, THE LANGUAGE OF THE SCHOOLMEN, BUT THEY ONLY USE THE LANGUAGE OF BIBLICAL THEOLOGY. HOWEVER, SAMUEL RICHARD HELD TO THE SAME THEOLOGY AS DR. GILL AND MOST OTHER HIGH GRACE BELIEVERS HOLD. WHILE I DO NOT AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THAT RICHARDSON DID SAY, I DO AGREE WITH HIS MAJOR POSITION AND AGREE WITH HIM IN HIS THEOLOGY.

    AS TO WILSON THOMPSON, TROUT, BEEBE, CLARK, AND THE OTHERS OF THE BLACK ROCK ADDRESS MEETINGS AND ERA, MOST OF THEM WERE SABELLIANS.

    JOE, ARE YOU A SABELLIAN?

    DO YOU AGREE WITH THOSE MEN THAT CHRIST DID HAVE THREE NATURES AND NOT TWO AND THAT HE DID EXIST IN HIS THIRD HUMAN NATURE BEFORE ALL CREATION? I WILL FIND YOUR ANSWER VERY INTERESTING.

    BUT LET ME COME TO THE POINT, THE REASON WHY THE BLACK ROCK ADDRESS MEN DENIED ETERNAL JUSTIFICATION IS BECAUSE THEY ALSO DENIED THAT A TRINITY OF DIVINE BEINGS ENTERED INTO A COVENANT OF REDEMPTION WITH EACH OTHER BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

    DO YOU AGREE WITH THEM JOE?

    NOW MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I JUST SAID, I HOPE YOU CAN COMPREHEND WHAT I JUST SAID. TO HELP, LET ME NOTE, I DID NOT SAY THEY DENIED THERE WAS A COVENANT OF GRACE, BUT THEY DID DENY WHAT I SAID THEY DENIED. ALSO I DID NOT SAY THEY DENIED A TRINITY OF SORTS, BUT THEY DID DENY A TRINITY OF DIVINE BEINGS.

    THEY DID THIS ON THE GROUNDS THAT GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE WORD AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT WERE NOT REAL DIVINE BEINGS, BUT MERELY THREE FIGURES OF SPEECH OR MANIFESTATIONS.

    DO YOU AGREE WITH THEM? PLEASE DO DIRECT ME TO ANY PARTICULAR BAPTIST WRITER FROM THAT ERA WHO DENIED ETERNAL JUSTIFICATION AND HELD TO A DIVINE TRINITY OF THREE DIVINE BEINGS? I AM NOT SAYING THERE WAS NO ONE, BUT PLEASE DO DIRECT ME TO ONE SUCH WRITER FROM THAT ERA AD I HAVE NOT FOUND ANYONE.

    TO ENLARGE, PLEASE DO DIRECT ME TO ANYONE OF THAT ERA WHO HELD TO THE TRUE AND PROPER TRINITY OF THREE DIVINE BEINGS, AND THESE THREE ENTERED INTO AN ETERNAL COVENANT OF REDEMPTION BEFORE ALL CREATION, AND YET DENIED ETERNAL JUSTIFICATION AND ETERNAL IMPUTATION? YOUR DENIERS WERE SABELLIANS AND THEIR DENIALS CAME FROM THEIR SABELLIAN VIEWS.

    THE SHAPERS AND FOUNDERS OF THE AMERICAN PRIMITIVE BAPTIST OR OLD SCHOOL BAPTIST MOVEMENT, WERE MOSTLY SABELLIANS. AS SUCH, THEY DENIED THAT THREE DIVINE BEINGS ENTERED INTO AN EVERLASTING COVENANT OF REDEMPTION WITH EACH OTHER. BECAUSE OF THEIR DENIAL OF THE TRUE AND PROPER DOCTRINE OF THE HOLY TRINITY, AND THE ETERNAL COVENANT OF REDEMPTION, IT FOLLOWS THAT THEY DENIED ETERNAL JUSTIFICATION AND ETERNAL IMPUTATION. THEY DID THIS SINCE THERE WAS NO SUCH ETERNAL COVENANT WITH THE STIPULATIONS EXCHANGED BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON, WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AS A WITNESS, ACCORDING TO YOUR AMERICAN OLD SCHOOL OR PRIMITIVE BAPTIST WRITERS.

    DID YOU OBTAIN SOME OF YOUR IDEAS AGAINST ETERNAL JUSTIFICATION AND ETERNAL IMPUTATION FROM WILSON THOMPSON’S WORKS? WHY NOT TELL US ABOUT THESE MEN AND THEIR RIDICULOUS VIEWS ABOUT THE HOLY TRINITY AND THEIR CONCEPTS ABOUT CHRISTOLOGY? Why do you just take their views AGAINST ETERNAL JUSTIFICATION AND ETERNAL IMPUTATION AND NOT THE REASONS WHY THEY DENIED ETERNAL JUSTIFICATION AND ETERNAL IMPUTATION?

    DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE ETERNAL COVENANT OF REDEMPTION ENTERED INTO BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AS A WITNESS BEFORE ALL CREATION? DID SAMUEL WILSON, WILSON THOMPSON AND THE OTHERS OF THEIR FELLOWSHIP DURING THAT ERA?

    YOU FIND FAULT WITH DR. GILL’S DEFINITION AND YET HE WAS CAREFUL TO SAY THAT GOD DID THIS DECRETIVELY, OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT. WHY DO YOU ARGUE AS IF DR. GILL AND WE OTHERS SAY AND MEAN GOD DID THIS ACTUALLY BEFORE ALL CREATION?

    DO YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DECREED ACTION BEFORE CREATION AND AN ACTUAL ACTION IN THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD? I HOPE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS DIFFERENCE YET AND YOU ARE NOT JUST TRYING TO MISREPRESENT US.

    I SHALL AWAIT YOUR ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS. May the Lord bless us as we study together, Ron.

    PS JOE, PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME PRIVATE MESSAGES.

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    Re: Eternal Imputation

    Joe, I think you are the one who needs to read Richardson on Justification by Christ Alone, and while you are doing so, try to figure out what he means when He speaks of Justification in Purpose, the Purpose of God, and then Justification accomplished by Christ on the Cross.

    Thanks for citing Richardson, I am presentingly doing a work entitled The Theology of Samuel Richardson as set forth in his work, Justification by Christ Alone.

    That you think he and Trout held the same views only shows you do not understand the issues and you simply cannot comprehend what you are reading.

    YOU CANNOT FIND ANY OF THE EARLY PARTICULAR BAPTIST WRITERS WHO HELD TO THE VIEWS OF WILSON THOMPSON, S. TROTT, AND THE OTHER BLACK ROCK ADDRESS MEN.

    Ron.

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