eternal justification

[Kneeling]

I most certainly believe in eternal justification, but I present another view that I read recently. This is from the perspective that all the elect had a real spiritual union with there head Christ before the world began and before there fall in adam. And the arguments would be, why would the children of God in heaven before they sinned and fell in adam would ever need any justification? For in that state, what would they be justified from? Why would they need to be saved in heaven when they had not been lost yet? Now, lets answer this difficulty with in mind, all things before they happen are in the mind and purpose of God..

[Dans la Musique]

I would try and download some of the conference vids, we talked alot about eternal justification, and exactly what you are saying. It definitly does make sense in Gods scope of predestination.

[Brandan Kraft]

That would be episode 3 which is available here: http://www.predestinarian.net/downlo...p?do=file&id=9

[Whammer]

I most certainly believe in eternal justification, but I present another view that I read recently. This is from the perspective that all the elect had a real spiritual union with there head Christ before the world began and before there fall in adam. And the arguments would be, why would the children of God in heaven before they sinned and fell in adam would ever need any justification? For in that state, what would they be justified from? Why would they need to be saved in heaven when they had not been lost yet? Now, lets answer this difficulty with in mind, all things before they happen are in the mind and purpose of God..

This is the couterfeit doctrine to true EJ. I recognized it immediately as it was the doctrine I learned as a mormon, that we actually had a conscious pre-existence........etc etc, I would go on but the rest of that just gets more ridiculous as it goes. There is a good thread on "imputation" as well as a couple others (along with the great videos) that discuss EJ. The mormon doctrine also conterfeits true predestination. I am sure that the mormons didnt come up with this idea originally, tenets of it showed up in some of the gnostic writings and probably existed long before, but I havnt read any historical things that supported such notions that are earlier than the 2nd century. Bob may have some additional insight on that info.
So that most recent doctrine you heard is definately found in mormonism.

[Kneeling]

This is the couterfeit doctrine to true EJ. I recognized it immediately as it was the doctrine I learned as a mormon, that we actually had a conscious pre-existence........etc etc, I would go on but the rest of that just gets more ridiculous as it goes. There is a good thread on "imputation" as well as a couple others (along with the great videos) that discuss EJ. The mormon doctrine also conterfeits true predestination. I am sure that the mormons didnt come up with this idea originally, tenets of it showed up in some of the gnostic writings and probably existed long before, but I havnt read any historical things that supported such notions that are earlier than the 2nd century. Bob may have some additional insight on that info.
So that most recent doctrine you heard is definately found in mormonism.

No sir, this has nothing to do with mormons, I don`t read mormon literature, this came from old predestinarian baptist. The I deal is that the elect are children prior to the fall see heb 2 : 13, 14. The elect were children as they were always germinally represented by their spiritual federal head christ. Isa 53: 10 speaks about Christ shall see his seed.
Christ elect had a being just as levi paid tithes in abraham see heb 7:9. So the contention is that the natural man is that which needs to be redeemed and adopted, otherwise why should an already child need to be adopted? Food for thought I think at least..

[jmgipson]

No sir, this has nothing to do with mormons, I don`t read mormon literature, this came from old predestinarian baptist. The I deal is that the elect are children prior to the fall see heb 2 : 13, 14. The elect were children as they were always germinally represented by their spiritual federal head christ. Isa 53: 10 speaks about Christ shall see his seed.
Christ elect had a being just as levi paid tithes in abraham see heb 7:9. So the contention is that the natural man is that which needs to be redeemed and adopted, otherwise why should an already child need to be adopted? Food for thought I think at least..

Anne,
Are you speaking of the doctrine of Eternal union in Christ? If so, this is a correct doctrine. We were loved with an everlasting love in Christ. We were always seen by the Father in the Son from everlasting.

John

[Whammer]

No sir, this has nothing to do with mormons, I don`t read mormon literature, this came from old predestinarian baptist. The I deal is that the elect are children prior to the fall see heb 2 : 13, 14. The elect were children as they were always germinally represented by their spiritual federal head christ. Isa 53: 10 speaks about Christ shall see his seed.
Christ elect had a being just as levi paid tithes in abraham see heb 7:9. So the contention is that the natural man is that which needs to be redeemed and adopted, otherwise why should an already child need to be adopted? Food for thought I think at least..

I wasnt disagreeing with your position on EJ as my posts bear out that I fully believe that doctrine, read my post a little more carefully, I didnt say that you were reading mormon doctrine, however, the way you put your words is exactly like what I learned as a mormon. It sounded like you were talking about a "pre-existence"......now is that not what you were saying about that other doctrine or not??

[Kneeling]

Anne,
Are you speaking of the doctrine of Eternal union in Christ? If so, this is a correct doctrine. We were loved with an everlasting love in Christ. We were always seen by the Father in the Son from everlasting.

John

Yes, we had an eternal union with christ before the fall in adam !

[Brandan Kraft]

Amen. The elect were joined to Christ in eternity which is transcendent of time and space. In effect, the elect have ALWAYS been joined to Christ.

[Whammer]

Amen. The elect were joined to Christ in eternity which is transcendent of time and space. In effect, the elect have ALWAYS been joined to Christ.

Right on, the scriptures bear it out from cover to cover

[Kneeling]

I wasnt disagreeing with your position on EJ as my posts bear out that I fully believe that doctrine, read my post a little more carefully, I didnt say that you were reading mormon doctrine, however, the way you put your words is exactly like what I learned as a mormon. It sounded like you were talking about a "pre-existence"......now is that not what you were saying about that other doctrine or not??

What the premise is, how can eternal justification and our eternal union pre fall be explained. The elect, prior to the fall in adam needed no justification correct?

[lionovjudah]

What the premise is, how can eternal justification and our eternal union pre fall be explained. The elect, prior to the fall in adam needed no justification correct?

This is not correct at all. Could not be farther from the truth.

[Merry and Joyful]

I have only heard about eternal justification very recently. I watched the conference video on it too, but I have a question.

How does this affect justification by faith? Usually the view I hear most of the time is that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through faith. Paul seems like he talks about JBF a lot too. So I'm wondering, does eternal justification toss this theory out the window, or is justification by faith something that happens in time while EJ happens outside of time? Hope I'm not too confusing. Just trying to understand your positions. Not sure if you talked about this elsewhere, most of the threads I tried to check out were expired, so I would greatly appreciate any responses on how faith fits into the picture and whether or not you all consider "justification by faith alone" (not to mean faith that merits salvation, but rather the means of uniting one to Christ's righteousness) to be a valid, Biblical phrase?

Thanks!

[Dans la Musique]

I believe Christ's righteousness is imputed to us by grace, and the assurance of that grace is faith. Justification from eternity is because according to Gods plan and promise we are already going to heaven. If we didnt have that assurance that Christ had made us and redeemed us unto heaven, then our faith would be empty, and would be no assurance at all.. So Gods plan being heaven and hell, He made humans for these destinations, Eternal justification, made and chosen by grace by and through Christ is one half of predestination, Eternal damnation for eternity would be the other.

[Kneeling]

I have only heard about eternal justification very recently. I watched the conference video on it too, but I have a question.

How does this affect justification by faith? Usually the view I hear most of the time is that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through faith. Paul seems like he talks about JBF a lot too. So I'm wondering, does eternal justification toss this theory out the window, or is justification by faith something that happens in time while EJ happens outside of time? Hope I'm not too confusing. Just trying to understand your positions. Not sure if you talked about this elsewhere, most of the threads I tried to check out were expired, so I would greatly appreciate any responses on how faith fits into the picture and whether or not you all consider "justification by faith alone" (not to mean faith that merits salvation, but rather the means of uniting one to Christ's righteousness) to be a valid, Biblical phrase?

Thanks!

My understanding of EJ is that which you have already said stacey , because God is eternal, his recgnition of time is as well eternal and therefore our justification from his perspective is outside the boundry of time as we know it. We as the elect come into a realization of our eternal justication by faith in time . Faith in time is not something we do to get saved ( and I know you know that ) but it is that trusting reliance given us by the holy spirit to reiceve that which has been so freely given us. Thats good news.. I might as well and go ahead and say it , but I believe that EJ is a gospel truth as well judging from titus 1: 1-3

Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word( promise) through preaching( the gospel), which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; Basically, the gospel is the revealing of Gods plan to save his people from there sins. This is an eternal plan , conditioned only on the triune God. Revelation 14: 6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—
I hope I don`t start a big fight here , so if anyone wants to peaceably discuss why I believe that EJ is a gospel truth, connect with me in private. I`m also confident that others here have something fruitful to say about EJ...

[Dans la Musique]

I agree Kneeling, God's Gospel, referring to His plan of redemption is eternal as His Word. It is not what we preach, though we speak of it with each other and others, it is really us talking about God's plan.

[Robert R. Higby]

The elect, prior to the fall in adam needed no justification correct?

That is not the conviction of most of us here; it does not harmonize with the pre-eminence of grace. If God purposed to exercise grace and redemption in Christ 'before time' or really transcendent of time, as a corollary to that (but in subjection to grace) he purposed law and sin. Christ is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world--so God treated the elect as unworthy in and of themselves from the foundation of the world--deserving of his wrath. God subjected the original creation to bondage (Rom. 8:20,21). The real and pre-eminent creation of God is the final state of redemption in Christ; the original creation is the shadow. Basically, Adam was not created sinless but spiritually naked (with a sinful nature) and unaware of his spiritual condition (Gen. 2:25) until it was revealed by his great temptation and sin.

This does NOT mean that the Lord ever IMPUTED his wrath to Adam or any of the elect; it simply means that he made Adam intrinsically unworthy of his grace and DESERVING of his wrath. It is impossible for wrath to be imputed to those justified from eternity--God ever and always sees them only in Christ and the imputation of his grace.

[Kneeling]

The elect, prior to the fall in adam needed no justification correct?

That is not the conviction of most of us here; it does not harmonize with the pre-eminence of grace. If God purposed to exercise grace and redemption in Christ 'before time' or really transcendent of time, as a corollary to that (but in subjection to grace) he purposed law and sin. Christ is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world--so God treated the elect as unworthy in and of themselves from the foundation of the world--deserving of his wrath. God subjected the original creation to bondage (Rom. 8:20,21). The real and pre-eminent creation of God is the final state of redemption in Christ; the original creation is the shadow. Basically, Adam was not created sinless but spiritually naked (with a sinful nature) and unaware of his spiritual condition (Gen. 2:25) until it was revealed by his great temptation and sin.

This does NOT mean that the Lord ever IMPUTED his wrath to Adam or any of the elect; it simply means that he made Adam intrinsically unworthy of his grace and DESERVING of his wrath. It is impossible for wrath to be imputed to those justified from eternity--God ever and always sees them only in Christ and the imputation of his grace.

Thanks Bob , you definitley give food for thought !