Proof that God "drags", not "woos."

[Brandan Kraft]

John 6:44 reads, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

So, what does it mean to "draw"?

I think the Arminians and those who believe in "free will" on this board would say it means to "woo", or "entice." For example, I enticed or wooed my wife to marry me . Or, I enticed my dog into the cage...

The greek word that is translated for "draw" is "elko." Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament defines it to mean: to COMPEL by IRRESTIBLE SUPERIORITY. Hmmm, this seems a bit different than the definition most Arminians would give...

But maybe the dictionary is wrong. Let's compare it to what we know is true.... the Word of God.

James 2:6 "But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag [elko]you into the courts?"

elko is translated 'drag' in the above passage.

Acts 16:19 "But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged [elko] them into the marketplace to the authorities."

elko is again translated 'dragged' in the above passage.

So according to Arminians and "free will" adherents who believe elko means to "woo" or "entice", you would then have to translate James 2:6 to read, "But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and woo or entice you into the courts.."

Also, you people who believe in "free will" would be forced to translate Acts 16:19 like this, "But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and "wooed" them into the marketplace to the authorities.."

Now do you adherents to "free will" honestly believe the proper translation for "draw" is "woo" or "entice?"

Now let's look back at John 6:44 with our new understanding. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me drags him."

Ahhh, the true gospel. We all naturally hate God and He alone can drag us out of our pit of depravity. Even if He dropped a ladder down into our pit, we wouldn't be able to climb it. He has to drag us.

I just don't see how you can argue with the above proof. But I'm sure you adherents to "free will" will somehow deny this logic so that it is reconciled with your theology.

[jhamrick]

I would agree with your definition, however I would disagree with the conclusions you draw. I agree that God must "drag" the man to Christ before he can be saved. I just think based on the previously mentioned "all, world, whosoever" that after God's confrontation with you, he gives you the opportunity to accept or refuse.

[Brandan Kraft]

Mr. J,

How would you define drag? Do you agree with the dictionary that it means "to COMPEL by IRRESTIBLE SUPERIORITY?"

[jhamrick]

Umm yeah. My thought though, is that the dragging is not into salvation, but to a confrontation with God.

[HIS]

Yes...And where or how does "conviction" come into play?

Is conviction not relative to this "drawing" or "dragging" action?

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by jhamrick
Umm yeah. My thought though, is that the dragging is not into salvation, but to a confrontation with God.

So God is dragging the sinner into a showdown, a confrontation? Could you please elaborate.... Did this sinner have free will before or after he was dragged?

[Brandan Kraft]

Also, notice that Jesus said that no one comes to me unless the Father draws him. What does it mean when Jesus says "come to me?" (Thank goodness He didn't leave us to speculate...)

John 6:35, (NASB), Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

John 6:35 tells us. It means salvation... not a confrontation. So, you could reinterpret John 6:44 to read....

"No one will hunger and ever thirst unless the Father who sent Me drags him."

J, above you agree with me on the definition of draw. You simply believe the Father drags us into a "confrontation." Yet, clearly Jesus said the Father drags the sinner to a life free from hunger and thirst.... (how do you interpret this?)

Do you want to re-evaluate your position on free will?

Here are some more verses for you to think about...

John 6:37, (NASB), "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. (doesn't sound like a confrontation to me... Anyone that comes is not cast out...)

John 6:65, (NASB), And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." (Notice coming to Jesus needs to be granted...)

John 7:37, (NASB), Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. (Clearly anyone who comes to Jesus WILL drink.... Coming to Jesus here sounds like an invitation to salvation. Yet, above, Jesus says the only way people will come to Him is if they are dragged... Hmmmm)

Matthew 11:28, (NASB), "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. (doesn't sound like a confrontation here either...)

[blackhaw]

I tohught we were not going ot go into this again. At least for a little while. Strongs shows draws as the definition. Now i know it is not Kittle's but I do not have that available. I just hink it is weird that Strong's did not use "to COMPEL by IRRESTIBLE SUPERIORITY" as one of its definitions. I will have to respond more clearly at home where I have mroe resources available. As far as James 2:6 and Acts 19:6 I think there is a middle ground that you have not considered. Someone does not "woo" someone into court but someone can take someone into court without dragging them. I mean they might have a lot of reason to go to court but are not made to go to court. Also could the word like so many other English and Greek words mean different things in different places? Everytihng in your post Kermie hinges around the "drag" definition. I will post a rebuttal tonight when I have more tools.

[Brandan Kraft]

Are you so bent on arguing your position, and disagreeing with what seems like a CLEAR truth, that you will have to go research further to back up what you believe to reassure yourself that you are not believing a lie?

Go back and read what was posted. This is strong evidence, yet you steer away from it.... Read, think, meditate... What do you TRULY believe it is saying. Nobody here will think less of you if you change your mind. I used to believe in free will, then I was confronted with these Biblical truths. Do I regret changing my belief? Not at all, and neither will you. Come, and accept the truth of the word of God.

[blackhaw]

Kermie:
Simple answer NO.

The question is unfair anyways. I am at work and do not have all the tools that I need to look at what you have said. Why don't you want me to look at Bible study aids? Are you scared of me doing this? See I can say things like you did also and turn it back on you but where does that get us? Also you certainly used some Bible tools when you posted this thread. So let me use the ones I have later. They will only be ones that are respected and you can check any sources I use. Lastly, saying that I am so bent on denying what is so clear and wanting to believe a lie is a logical fallacy. It is an attack against me. Not my position. I do not know what else to say.

[Brandan Kraft]

OK, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt... However, Jhamrick, I REALLY want to see what this confrontation things is about....

[Andrew]

Here are all the verses in the NT that use the elko (1670) /draw word.

Joh 6:44* No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw <1670> him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw <1670> all men unto me.

Joh 18:10* Then Simon Peter having a sword drew <1670> it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

Joh 21:6* And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw <1670> it for the multitude of fishes.

Joh 21:11* Simon Peter went up, and drew <1670> the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

Ac 16:19* And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew <1670> them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

Ac 21:30* And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew <1670> him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw <1670> you before the judgment seats?

And this is Strong's definition:
1670 \~elkuo\~ helkuo {hel-koo'-o} or helko {hel'-ko}

probably akin to 138; TDNT - 2:503,227; v

AV - draw 8; 8

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

CLEARLY, it does NOT only have ONE meaning/sense, ie to drag off (kicking and screaming). And to use only that one meaning/sense in all the verses is simply stretching it to prove some doctrine.

[blackhaw]

First here is the verse in NAU

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Okay first i saw arguements on both sides in my research. Here is one that seems it could go either way. Luther is quoted at the end. He does make the distinction that Helkuoo is not a dragging but it is a drawing but is a drawing that "everyone willingly goes." Okay we know where Luther stands but i knew that before going in.

[Draw] [helkusee (grk 1670)]. Two words for "drawing" are found in the New Testament, [suroo] (grk 4951) and [helkuoo] (grk 1670). The distinction is not habitually observed, and the meanings often overlap. [Suroo] (grk 4951) is originally to "drag or trail" along, as a garment or torn slippers. Both words are used of haling to justice. (See <Acts 8:3; 17:6; 16:19>.) In <Acts 14:19>, [suroo] (grk 4951), of dragging Paul's senseless body out of the city at Lystra. In <John 21:6,8,11>, both words of drawing the net. In <John 18:10>, [helkuoo] (grk 1670), of drawing Peter's sword. One distinction, however, is observed: [suroo] (grk 4951) is never used of Christ's attraction of men. See <John 6:44; 12:32>. [Helkuoo] (grk 1670) occurs only once outside of John's writings <Acts 16:19>. Luther says on this passage: "The drawing is not like that of the executioner, who draws the thief up the ladder to the gallows; but it is a gracious allurement, such as that of the man whom everybody loves, and to whom everybody willingly goes."
(from Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament)

So i looked in a Vines Bible dictionary. Again it goes away from the draging definition.

DRAW (AWAY, BACK, NIGH, ON, OUT, UP)

2. helko ^1670^ is translated "to draw" in the KJV, of <Acts 21:30> and <Jas. 2:6>; see DRAG, No. 2.
3. suro ^4951^: see DRAG, No. 1.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words)
(Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)


DRAG

2. helkuo (or helko) ^1670^, "to draw," differs from suro, as "drawing" does from violent "dragging." It is used of "drawing" a net, <John 21:6,11> (cf. No. 1, in <v. 8>), Trench remarks, "At <vv. 6> and <11> helko (or helkuo) is used; for there a drawing of the net to a certain point is intended; by the disciples to themselves in the ship, by Peter to himself upon the shore. But at <v. 8> helko gives place to suro: for nothing is there intended but the dragging of the net, which had been fastened to the ship, after it through the water" (Syn., Sec. xxi).
This less violent significance, usually present in helko, but always absent from suro, is seen in the metaphorical use of helko, to signify "drawing" by inward power, by divine impulse, <John 6:44; 12:32>. So in the Sept., e. g., <Song of Sol. 1:4>, and <Jer. 31:3>, "with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." It is used of a more vigorous action, in <John 18:10>, of "drawing" a sword; in <Acts 16:19; 21:30>, of forcibly "drawing" men to or from a place; so in <Jas. 2:6>, KJV, "draw," RV, "drag." See DRAW.#
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Word (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

then i went to Thayers definition of the greek word and there are 2 definitions for it.

helko1670 helkuo or helko-

1) to draw, to drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, to lead, to impel

[blackhaw]

part 2

Then i went to my commentaries.

Here is one that definitely goes against the dragging definition and even to a more of a wooing type of definition. i think wooing is wrong too though. I think God shows man His weakness and helps him see how to get out of it. Then man has a choice to go with God or stay where He is at. So it is more than a woo but far less than a drag. This commentary though although God does not drag shows it in a reformed way.

John 6:44 PP4


[Draw him] This word is used here, evidently, to denote such an influence from God as to secure the result, or as to incline the mind to believe; yet the manner in which this is done is not determined by the use of the word. It is used in the New Testament six times. Once it is applied to a compulsory drawing of Paul and Silas to the market-place, <Acts 16:19>. Twice it is used to denote the drawing of a net, <John 21:6,11>. Once to the drawing of a sword <John 18:10>; and once in a sense similar to its use here <John 12:32>: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." What is its meaning here must be determined by the facts about the sinner's conversion. See the notes at <John 6:40>. In the conversion of the sinner God enlightens the mind <John 6:45>, he inclines the will <Ps. 110:3>, and he influences the soul by motives, by just views of his law, by his love, his commands, and his threatenings; by a desire of happiness, and a consciousness of danger; by the Holy Spirit applying truth to the mind, and urging him to yield himself to the Saviour. So that, while God inclines him, and will have all the glory, man yields without compulsion; the obstacles are removed, and he becomes a willing servant of God.
(from Barnes' Notes)

This commentary goes even farther and describes it as an alluring but again definitely not a dragging.

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


[Except the Father which hath sent me draw him] But how is a man drawn? Augustin answers from the poet, Trahit sua quemque volulptas; a man is attracted by that which he delights in. Show green herbage to a sheep, he is drawn by it: show nuts to a child, and he is drawn by them. They run wherever the person runs who shows these things: they run after him, but they are not forced to follow: they run, through the desire they feel to get the things they delight in. So God draws man: he shows him his wants-- he shows the Saviour whom he has provided for him: the man feels himself a lost sinner; and, through the desire which he finds to escape hell, and get to heaven, he comes unto Christ, that he may be justified by his blood. Unless God thus draw, no man will ever come to Christ; because none could, without this drawing, ever feel the need of a Saviour. See August. Tract. 26, in Joan. and Calmet.
Drawing, or alluring, not dragging, is here to be understood. "He," say the rabbis, "who desires to cleave to the holy and blessed God, God lays hold of him, and will not cast him off." Synops. Sohar. p. 87. The best Greek writers use the verb in the same sense of alluring, inciting, etc.
(from Adam Clarke Commentary)


Thayers definition
1670 helkuo or helko-

1) to draw, to drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, to lead, to impel

Here is an old testament verse that uses the same greek word. That is the septuigint used the same word. Should we say that God dragged him with loving kindness? I do not think so.

Jer 31:3
3 The LORD appeared to him from afar, {saying} "I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.
(NAU)

here is another one where drag is definitely wrong.

Song 1:4
4 "Draw me after you {and} let us run {together!} The king has brought me into his chambers." "We will rejoice in you and be glad; we will extol your love more than wine. Rightly do they love you."
(NAU)

Okay i think I have made a very good case that drag is not a good definition of the greek word Helko in John 6:44. I think draw is the right word. that is why all translations use the word draw instead of drag. i saw none that used drag. From The living Bible to Young's literal translation. From the King james to the NIV. and all in between NASB, Updated NASB, NLT, NKJV, or the Revised standard. So Kermie I really tried to show that I was being as impartial as possible. I just do not see how helko could mean drag in this verse. Also I think that there is good enough evidence that says that it is really talking about God alluring us to Him. I think there a lot better verses that could be used to support your case. This one is just not a very good one.

[Brandan Kraft]

Joh 18:10* Then Simon Peter having a sword drew <1670> it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

Did Peter "coax" the sword out? Or did He USE compelling power to force it out?

Joh 21:6* And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw <1670> it for the multitude of fishes.

Did they attempt to coax the net toward them, or did they try to use irresistable force to try to bring the net in?

Joh 21:11* Simon Peter went up, and drew <1670> the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

Again, was the net "coaxed, enticed, or wooed" in? Or was it forced in through irresistable power?

Ac 16:19* And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew <1670> them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

So, they CAUGHT Paul and Silas and coaxed them into the marketplace? Or they CAUGHT Paul and Silas and FORCED them into the marketplace?

Ac 21:30* And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew <1670> him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

They TOOK Paul, and coaxed him out of the temple? Or did they TAKE Paul and force him out of the temple?

Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw <1670> you before the judgment seats?

So, do the rich men coax, or entice people into court? Or do they FORCE them into court?

-------

The verses above use the greek word helko, and I can probably safely assume that you and I would agree that helko here means to "irresistable compel", rather than coax, or entice...

Yet, the verses below, you blow off this definition, and use an alternate one because the new meaning of the verses don't fit your theology... I get it......

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw <1670> all men unto me.

Joh 6:44* No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw <1670> him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, if we apply your preferred definition of "helko" for this verse, John 6:44, we would see free will in it, am I correct? SOOOOO, if men are drawn into a "confrontation" with God, they can choose to accept or reject, him, correct?

If that is the case, then not everyone who is "drawn" to God will not be saved.... But in the verse above, it clearly says that those who are DRAWN to Jesus, will be RAISED UP at the LAST DAY.

So, which do you believe?

Draw (helko), in John 6:44 means to "irresistably compel".

OR.....

Draw (helko), in John 6:44 means to "coax", or "entice", giving man free will, and the choice to choose or reject God.... (implying that some men will accept, and some men will reject.)????

----

If you agree with the first choice, you are agreeing with John 6:44, for it cliearly says "Joh 6:44* No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw <1670> him: and I will raise him up at the last day." - If you are "drawn" to Jesus, you will be raised up with Him at the last day.

If you believe (helko) means to "coax", or "entice" then you don't agree with John 6:44..

[Andrew]

If you agree with the first choice (drag), you are agreeing with John
6:44, for it cliearly says "Joh 6:44* No man can come to me,
except the Father which hath sent me draw <1670> him:
and I will raise him up at the last day." - If you are "drawn"
to Jesus, you will be raised up with Him at the last day.

If you believe (helko) means to "coax", or "entice" then you
don't agree with John 6:44..
-----------------------

This verse does not mean that if God drags you to him, you will automatically like it or not be saved and raised on the last day.

Whether we are saved and hence raised depends on whether we believe.

And this is clearly given in the surrounding context in v40:

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Brandan Kraft]

"Joh 6:44* No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw <1670> him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

This verse brings up a few questions. What are they?

Here is my analysis...

1. Who can come to the Jesus?
Nobody except those which the Father has drawn.

2. Who will be raised up at the last day?
This is implying those who are drawn will be raised up with Jesus at the last day.

Come on people, this is elementary reading material. I guarantee you that if I showed this verse to anyone who didn't have a clue what Christianity was, they would agree with my analysis of this sentence. Why? Because it's LOGICAL.

[Andrew]

Well kermie dont know about you or others,

But I go by the witness of the Holy Spirit, not so much logic or a sinner's interpretation. And i prefer to let scripture interpret scripture.

[blackhaw]

Kermie:

I never said that Helko was never used as "to drag." In fact I think that I showed that it could be used both ways. Maybe you did not read that part of my posts. So quoting verses where it means "to Drag" does little for me. SO I will not go over each one individually. However I quoted verses where it definitely did not mean "to drag"

i.e.

Song 1:4
4 "Draw me after you {and} let us run {together!} The king has brought me into his chambers." "We will rejoice in you and be glad; we will extol your love more than wine. Rightly do they love you."

That is unless you think that Solomon in a love poem would say "Drag me after you..."

Now you said:

"the verses above use the greek word helko, and I can probably safely assume that you and I would agree that helko here means to "irresistable compel", rather than coax, or entice... Yet, the verses below, you blow off this definition, and use an alternate one because the new meaning of the verses don't fit your theology... I get it......
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw <1670> all men unto me.

John 6:44* No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw <1670> him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, if we apply your preferred definition of "helko" for this verse, John 6:44, we would see free will in it, am I correct? SOOOOO, if men are drawn into a "confrontation" with God, they can choose to accept or reject, him,correct?

If that is the case, then not everyone who is "drawn" to God will not be saved.... But in the verse above, it clearly says that those who are DRAWN to Jesus, will be RAISED UP at the LAST DAY."


Well I think it could clearly mean that Everyone that God draws to Jesus and that comes to me will be raised up. The one who "comes to me" is the one who is raised up. Like I could say everyone that is going to the concert has received a ticket from my dad and I will buy them a coke after the concert." (Okay lame example) Am I saying in this example that everyone that my dad gave a ticket to is going to go? No but everyone that goes got a ticket from my dad. Same with the verse. Everyone that comes to Jesus was drawn by God but I do not see where it states that everyone that is just drawn by God will receive. Even the punctuation seems to me to show this. So I see no confusion here.

Now if you believe that draw means "to irresistably compel" only then what do you do with John 12:32 where it says that he will draw ALL men. He IRRESISTABLY COMPELS ALL MEN TO HIM?

See "It is all Elementary Kermie. Elementary."
Blackhaw

[jhamrick]

Confrontation meaning a point where a decision must be made.

My position on free will stands, as I have never said that man has complete free will, but in some circumstances we see biblical evidence that God has granted a man free will. I believe salvation to be one of these, because the Bible says God loves the world, and whosoever believes will not perish, but we also no that not everyone will be saved, so they must have chosen not to accept it.
I think my stance is misunderstood. I think God can do whatever he wants. He is sovereign, no question. I think sometimes he wants to give us choices. Like I said many moons ago, the truth is in the middle.