The Wrath of God

[MCoving]

Okay I was looking over the thread common wrath defended and I still have some questions. If people wouldn't mind discussing this again that'd be cool. I just started wondering if God showed His wrath to us before we were regenerated? The wrath He has for those who sin, those who go against His law. Not in that He didn't love us before we were regenerated for He did I know that, I know He didn't hate us. I just wonder about some of these verses:

Ephesians 2:3
3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Romans 1:18
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Ephesians 2:11-13
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Now are these last verses talking about before regeneratin we are seperate from Christ? or is it just saying that those people, the Gentiles before Christs dead were seperated by Christ, but then brought near by the blood of Christ?

'Cause when we are born we are born children of God, just not yet knowing our position because God hasn't revealed it. And since we are His family we are loved. So would God show His wrath on His family before they are regenerated, when they are doing things their way.. trying to save themselves by obeying the Law.

Or is that not wrath but chastisement, discipline out of love?

I hope I am making some sense.. I believe in justification from eternity that at the cross Jesus imputed righteousness into our accounts. So then God does know and look at us as righteous thru Christ even before we are regenerated right? I mean its in our accounts before we are born.. righteousness isn't imputed at time of regeneration. So if we are seen as righteous thru Christ, his finished work on the cross before regeneration than Christ is our advocate before regeneration too? So thus God doesn't show His wrath towards us because of our sins? 'Cause we were justified from eternity, so He wouldn't show His warth towards our sins before we are regenerated right? Or does He. Any help in explaining this and verses? Thanks!!

Mary

[Kneeling]

Okay I was looking over the thread common wrath defended and I still have some questions. If people wouldn't mind discussing this again that'd be cool. I just started wondering if God showed His wrath to us before we were regenerated? The wrath He has for those who sin, those who go against His law. Not in that He didn't love us before we were regenerated for He did I know that, I know He didn't hate us. I just wonder about some of these verses:

Ephesians 2:3
3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. ( by nature may be the key here. what causes us to differ? It can`t be anything meritorious in us, we were just as wicked and depraved as others by nature)
Romans 1:18
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,(I believe this verse is speaking about depravity in general and particularily to the non elect)

Ephesians 2:11-13
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (yes, I believe this refers to gentiles before the cross)

Now are these last verses talking about before regeneratin we are seperate from Christ? or is it just saying that those people, the Gentiles before Christs dead were seperated by Christ, but then brought near by the blood of Christ?

'Cause when we are born we are born children of God, just not yet knowing our position because God hasn't revealed it.( correct) And since we are His family we are loved.( correct) So would God show His wrath on His family before they are regenerated, when they are doing things their way.. trying to save themselves by obeying the Law.(I don`t believe we are under Gods penal wrath, but we are born under judicial wrath by fact we are born experiencing spiritual death and sepereated from God, much like adam and eve after they ate of the fruit. Bob or milt or one of the others may share some light on this my comment, I am no way dogmatic about this one)
Or is that not wrath but chastisement, discipline out of love?

I hope I am making some sense.. I believe in justification from eternity that at the cross Jesus imputed righteousness into our accounts. So then God does know and look at us as righteous thru Christ even before we are regenerated right? I mean its in our accounts before we are born.. righteousness isn't imputed at time of regeneration. So if we are seen as righteous thru Christ, his finished work on the cross before regeneration than Christ is our advocate before regeneration too? So thus God doesn't show His wrath towards us because of our sins? 'Cause we were justified from eternity, so He wouldn't show His warth towards our sins before we are regenerated right? Or does He. Any help in explaining this and verses? Thanks!!

Mary

I do believe that we are born sanctified even before regeneration, jude 1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called

[jmgipson]

Mary,
We were never under the wrath of God. There was never a time when we were appointed to wrath. We could never be in Christ and appointed to wrath. Wrath is reserved only for the reprobate.

1 Thess 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath , but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 2:11-13
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

I believe this verse is speaking of Gentile nations in the OT. In those days, the gentile nations were without God. Only the nation of Israel was part of the covenant. Very few gentiles were saved in the OT days.

John

[MCoving]

well yeah we are the elect so we are not created for the wrath of God for destruction. I guess what I wonder is what is the definition of wrath and how do Scripture us it? Could it be meant as anger, like anger from God on the things we did when unregenerate, on our sinful actions, or unbelief? Is anger of God different than His wrath? And I know that it says he disciplines in love but could His wrath be a form of discipline? Or maybe its anger.. I dont know confused.

Thanks.
Mary

[jmgipson]

3709 ovrgh,

orge {or-gay'}

Meaning:

1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character 2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger 3) anger, wrath, indignation 4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself 4a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates

Origin:

from 3713; TDNT - 5:382,716; n f

Usage:

AV - wrath 31, anger 3, vengeance 1, indignation 1; 36

This wrath is not on any sheep, lost or found. In other words Mary, never, even when we are unregenerate, are we under the wrath of God. This is reserved for the reprobate. You cannot use wrath and elect ever in the same sentence. Our natures where exactly the same as those who are under wrath. (By nature we were children of wrath) I think there is a thread somewhere on the two natures of the elect.

John

[Kneeling]

3709 ovrgh,

orge {or-gay'}

Meaning:

1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character 2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger 3) anger, wrath, indignation 4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself 4a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates

Origin:

from 3713; TDNT - 5:382,716; n f

Usage:

AV - wrath 31, anger 3, vengeance 1, indignation 1; 36

This wrath is not on any sheep, lost or found. In other words Mary, never, even when we are unregenerate, are we under the wrath of God. This is reserved for the reprobate. You cannot use wrath and elect ever in the same sentence. Our natures where exactly the same as those who are under wrath. (By nature we were children of wrath) I think there is a thread somewhere on the two natures of the elect.

John

Hi John, I have a question if you don`t mind. Was christ ever under the wrath of God? I do know God loved the elect as he did his son, judging from jn 17: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

[jmgipson]

Hi John, I have a question if you don`t mind. Was christ ever under the wrath of God? I do know God loved the elect as he did his son, judging from jn 17: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Hey Anne,
Yes. This is the wrath that before the foundation of the world was laid on Him for us. We were imputed with His righteousness in eternity, and our punishment (wrath) was laid on Him in eternity. This is the only reason His elect were never under the wrath of God. Thanks for that question.

John

[Kneeling]

Hey Anne,
Yes. This is the wrath that before the foundation of the world was laid on Him for us. We were imputed with His righteousness in eternity, and our punishment (wrath) was laid on Him in eternity. This is the only reason His elect were never under the wrath of God. Thanks for that question.

John

I agree in ej, but did he christ experience wrath in time on the cross ? what about zec 13: 7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

[jmgipson]

I agree in ej, but did he christ experience wrath in time on the cross ?

Yes.

John

[Kneeling]

Yes.

John

Ok, do you believe the elect were represented with christ when he experienced wrath in time ? If so, then would it be logical to infer that the elect experience the wrath of God as represented in their Head ? I am only diggin here, I am not dogmatic about this.

[Calvinator]

Okay I was looking over the thread common wrath defended and I still have some questions. If people wouldn't mind discussing this again that'd be cool. I just started wondering if God showed His wrath to us before we were regenerated? The wrath He has for those who sin, those who go against His law. Not in that He didn't love us before we were regenerated for He did I know that, I know He didn't hate us. I just wonder about some of these verses:

Ephesians 2:3
3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Romans 1:18
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Ephesians 2:11-13
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Now are these last verses talking about before regeneratin we are seperate from Christ? or is it just saying that those people, the Gentiles before Christs dead were seperated by Christ, but then brought near by the blood of Christ?

'Cause when we are born we are born children of God, just not yet knowing our position because God hasn't revealed it. And since we are His family we are loved. So would God show His wrath on His family before they are regenerated, when they are doing things their way.. trying to save themselves by obeying the Law.

Or is that not wrath but chastisement, discipline out of love?

I hope I am making some sense.. I believe in justification from eternity that at the cross Jesus imputed righteousness into our accounts. So then God does know and look at us as righteous thru Christ even before we are regenerated right? I mean its in our accounts before we are born.. righteousness isn't imputed at time of regeneration. So if we are seen as righteous thru Christ, his finished work on the cross before regeneration than Christ is our advocate before regeneration too? So thus God doesn't show His wrath towards us because of our sins? 'Cause we were justified from eternity, so He wouldn't show His warth towards our sins before we are regenerated right? Or does He. Any help in explaining this and verses? Thanks!!

Mary

Everything about God is eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. This includes his wrath and his love. God is immutable, He does not change. Everyone that God loves, He has always loved. The reverse is true, everyone that God hates, He has always hated.

In Romans 8, we know that the love of God is found in Christ, Jesus. To have access to this love, we have to be in Christ. When is a sinner, first in Christ? According to Ephesians, it was before the foundation of the world. That would be before creation, itself.

In time Jesus died for the sins of His people, but in the mind of God, the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. As sinners walking in darkness before the appointed time of our regeneration and conversion, our nature is like the children of wrath, but we were never in danger of the judgement of God, because God does not fail to save those that He chose in Christ and He does not fail to draw them to Christ.

A person that hears God's Word and believes, has to be of God, first. Believing does not make one a sheep, but reveals that he is one. Goats don't become sheep and sheep don't become goats.

Those verses mostly describe our condition as strangers to the covenant when we were walking in darkness, but never were we under the wrath of God. If we were under His wrath, then He would have not saved us.

[Kneeling]

Everything about God is eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. This includes his wrath and his love. God is immutable, He does not change. Everyone that God loves, He has always loved. The reverse is true, everyone that God hates, He has always hated.

In Romans 8, we know that the love of God is found in Christ, Jesus. To have access to this love, we have to be in Christ. When is a sinner, first in Christ? According to Ephesians, it was before the foundation of the world. That would be before creation, itself.

In time Jesus died for the sins of His people, but in the mind of God, the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. As sinners walking in darkness before the appointed time of our regeneration and conversion, our nature is like the children of wrath, but we were never in danger of the judgement of God, because God does not fail to save those that He chose in Christ and He does not fail to draw them to Christ.

A person that hears God's Word and believes, has to be of God, first. Believing does not make one a sheep, but reveals that he is one. Goats don't become sheep and sheep don't become goats.

Those verses mostly describe our condition as strangers to the covenant when we were walking in darkness, but never were we under the wrath of God. If we were under His wrath, then He would have not saved us.

I agree , but was christ ever under the wrath of God ?

[jmgipson]

Ok, do you believe the elect were represented with christ when he experienced wrath in time ? If so, then would it be logical to infer that the elect experience the wrath of God as represented in their Head ? I am only diggin here, I am not dogmatic about this.

2 Cor 5:14
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

I believe our head Jesus Christ, died (we died with Him), He lives, we live and are seated with Him in the heavenlies. I hope I am explaining this OK. I do not believe Christ went to Hell for us though (if this is what you mean by the wrath of God on Christ.)

John

[Kneeling]

2 Cor 5:14
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

I believe our head Jesus Christ, died (we died with Him), He lives, we live and are seated with Him in the heavenlies. I hope I am explaining this OK. I do not believe Christ went to Hell for us though (if this is what you mean by the wrath of God on Christ.)

John

No , thats not what I mean. I am just asking that as christ lived and obeyed Gods holy law, I believe this is termed his active obediance, it is imputed to us his elect as though we obeyed ourselves ! I guess what I am saying is that did we in christ experience imputed wrath as christ experienced imputed sin( not actual sin) I believe there is a difference in imputed wrath and penal wrath, I believe the non elect are appointed to eternal, penal wrath.The elect are not ! Why would it be farfetched for christ to have experienced the fathers wrath and not the children of the son, we are all loved the same by the father, I hope I am making sense...

[jmgipson]

No , thats not what I mean. I am just asking that as christ lived and obeyed Gods holy law, I believe this is termed his active obediance, it is imputed to us his elect as though we obeyed ourselves ! I guess what I am saying is that did we in christ experience imputed wrath as christ experienced imputed sin( not actual sin) I believe there is a difference in imputed wrath and penal wrath, I believe the non elect are appointed to eternal, penal wrath.The elect are not ! Why would it be farfetched for christ to have experienced the fathers wrath and not the children of the son, we are all loved the same by the father, I hope I am making sense...

Anne,
I am not sure what you mean by "experience imputed wrath". Imputation is nothing more than a declaration of God. Imputed rightousness means we have been declared righteous by God. We do not experience anything. We are declared just, and Christ is declared guilty. So I am not sure how we can experience a imputed wrath. I am probably misunderstanding you so bear with me.

John

[Kneeling]

Anne,
I am not sure what you mean by "experience imputed wrath". Imputation is nothing more than a declaration of God. Imputed rightousness means we have been declared righteous by God. We do not experience anything. We are declared just, and Christ is declared guilty. So I am not sure how we can experience a imputed wrath. I am probably misunderstanding you so bear with me.

John

Hi John , and please bear with me as well. When the elect in time are born dead in sin, is that maybe in a temporal way, experiencing Gods wrath, not his eternal penal wrath, but the wrath as it is described in rom 2 prior to our regeneration ? Also, after adam sinned by eating the fruit, did he experience Gods wrath or displeasure when he died ? Now I believe adam was an elect , but it appears to me as a result of his disobediance he experienced to some degree Gods wrath or displeasure and died as a consequence. I would like not only your response, but anyone who cares to elaborate, thanks !

[Calvinator]

I agree , but was christ ever under the wrath of God ?

I would say, yes. Isaiah 53 brings this out.

[Robert R. Higby]

Also, after adam sinned by eating the fruit, did he experience Gods wrath or displeasure when he died ? Now I believe adam was an elect , but it appears to me as a result of his disobediance he experienced to some degree Gods wrath or displeasure and died as a consequence. I would like not only your response, but anyone who cares to elaborate, thanks!

This may be termed God's 'temporal wrath' since the elect do temporarily experience many of the consequences of sin. When we talk about imputed wrath we generally mean hell-wrath or the full cup of God's anger. This hell-wrath was both imputed and imparted to Christ in his final hours on earth. He did not experience sin in his person though--only the consequences and guilt of it.

[MCoving]

Also, after adam sinned by eating the fruit, did he experience Gods wrath or displeasure when he died ? Now I believe adam was an elect , but it appears to me as a result of his disobediance he experienced to some degree Gods wrath or displeasure and died as a consequence. I would like not only your response, but anyone who cares to elaborate, thanks!

This may be termed God's 'temporal wrath' since the elect do temporarily experience many of the consequences of sin. When we talk about imputed wrath we generally mean hell-wrath or the full cup of God's anger. This hell-wrath was both imputed and imparted to Christ in his final hours on earth. He did not experience sin in his person though--only the consequences and guilt of it.

So the elect of God does experience a temporal wrath from God when we experience the consequences of sin? That'd be like His chastisement right? But we dont experience the wrath thats reserved for the nonelect, that wrath of God we never experience because Jesus died for us on the cross. Right?

Thanks,
Mary

[Robert R. Higby]

So the elect of God does experience a temporal wrath from God when we experience the consequences of sin? That'd be like His chastisement right? But we dont experience the wrath thats reserved for the nonelect, that wrath of God we never experience because Jesus died for us on the cross. Right?

Right! And maybe we would do well to label God's giving his elect a time-bound portion of the consequence of their sins as 'chastisement'--to avoid confusion!