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Thread: How different is the Catholic View ?

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    How different is the Catholic View ?

    Dear Elect Brothers and Sisters,

    I have reached my last post before I go off site, in a very committed way to complete the task that has been set before me. Knowing what I know, about the strength of the Roman Catholic position on Predestination, I was interested to know how ye experts respond to a fuller explanation of such by Ludwig Ott.

    I shall be watching to see how y'all respond to this one.

    In His service,
    Katoikei
    (31/31)

    Catholic Predestination
    by Ludwig Ott

    Introduction

    The Catholic Church, following St. Augustine (e.g., Grace and Free Will, 1,1; Sermon 169, 11,13), accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man's free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).

    God is sovereign, in our view, every bit as much as in Protestantism (particularly Calvinism), as will amply be demonstrated below. All that is disputed are the intricacies of the grace / free will antinomy, which is one of the most mysterious and difficult questions in the history of both Christian theology and theistic philosophy. Of course, the allowance of free will is also present in Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, most charismatic, non-denominational and Baptist theologies, etc.

    The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a de fide dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty), while at the same time affirming free will and the possibility of falling away from the faith. The following material from Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford, IL: TAN Books, 1974 {orig. 1952}, pp.242-45) ought to be most helpful for Protestants seeking to understand what Catholics believe about this ever-mysterious, controversial, complex, highly abstract theological question:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)

    [ De fide = "of faith" - dogmas are absolutely binding on all Catholics]

    This doctrine is proposed by the Ordinary and General Teaching of the Church as a truth of Revelation. The doctrinal definitions of the Council of Trent presuppose it . . . The reality of Predestination is clearly attested to in Rom 8:29 et seq: . . . cf. Mt 25:34, Jn 10:27 et seq., Acts 13:48, Eph 1:4 et seq. . . . Predestination is a part of the Eternal Divine Plan of Providence.

    2) BASIS OF PREDESTINATION

    a) The Problem

    The main difficulty . . . lies in the question whether God's eternal resolve of Predestination has been taken with or without consideration of the merits of the man (postorante praevisa merita).

    Only incomplete Predestination to grace is independent of every merit (ante praevisa merita), as the first grace cannot be merited. In the same way, complete Predestination to grace and glory conjointly is independent of every merit, as the first grace cannot be merited, and the consequent graces, as well as the merits acquired with these graces and their reward, depend like the links of a chain, on the first grace . . .

    b) Attempts at Solution

    The Thomists, the Augustinians, the majority of the Scotists and also individual older Molinists (Suarez, St. Bellarmine) teach an absolute Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), therefore ante praevisa merita. According to them, God freely resolves from all Eternity, without consideration of the merits of man's grace, to call certain men to beatification and therefore to bestow on them graces which will infallibly secure the execution of the Divine Decree (ordo intentionis). In time God first gives to the predestined effective graces and then eternal bliss as a reward for the merits which flow from their free cooperation with grace (ordo executionis). The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis are in inverse relation to each other (glory-grace; grace-glory).

    Most of the Molinists, and also St. Francis de Sales (+1622), teach a conditioned Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), that is, postand propter praevisa merita. According to them, God by His scientia media, sees beforehand how men would freely react to various orders of grace. In the light of this knowledge He chooses, according to His free pleasure a fixed and definite order of grace. Now by His scientia visionis, He knows infallibly in advance what use the individual man will make of the grace bestowed on him. He elects for eternal bliss those who by virtue of their foreseen merits perseveringly cooperate with grace, while He determines for eternal punishment of hell, those who, on account of their foreseen demerits, deny their cooperation. The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis coincide (grace-glory; grace-glory).

    Both attempts at explanation are ecclesiastically permissible. The scriptural proofs are not decisive for either side. The Thomists quote above all passages from the Letter to the Romans, in which the Divine factor in salvation is brought strongly to the foreground (Rom 8:29; 9:11-13, 9:20 et seq.) . . . The Molinists invoke the passages which attest the universality of the Divine desire for salvation, especially 1 Tim 2:4, as well as the sentence to be pronounced by the Judge of the World (Mt 25:34-36), in which the works of mercy are given as ground for the acceptance into the Heavenly Kingdom. But that these are also the basis for the 'preparation' for the Kingdom, that is, for the eternal resolve of Predestination, cannot be definitely proved from them . . .

    While the pre-Augustinian tradition is in favour of the Molinistic explanation, St. Augustine, at least in his later writings, is more in favour of the Thomistic explanation. The Thomist view emphasizes God's universal causality while the other view stresses the universality of the Divine salvific will, man's freedom and his cooperation in his salvation. The difficulties remaining on both sides prove that Predestination even for reason enlightened by faith, is an unfathomable mystery (Rom 11:33 ff.).

    3) PROPERTIES OF PREDESTINATION

    a) Immutability

    The resolve of Predestination, as an act of the divine knowledge and will, is as immutable as the Divine Essence itself. The number of those who are registered in the Book of Life (Phil 4:3, Rev 17:8; cf. Lk 10:20) is formally and materially fixed, that is, God knows and determines with infallible certainty in advance, how many and which men will be saved . . .

    b) Uncertainty

    The Council of Trent declared against Calvin, that certainty in regard to one's Predestination can be attained by special Revelation only . . . Holy Scripture enjoins man to work out his salvation in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). He who imagines that he will stand should take care lest he fall (1 Cor 10:12). In spite of this uncertainty there are signs of Predetermination which indicate a high probability of one's Predestination, e.g., a persevering practice of the virtues recommended in the Eight Beatitudes, frequent reception of Holy Communion, active love of one's neighbor, love for Christ and for the Church . . .

    [For scriptural proofs against absolute assurance of salvation I submit the following passages: 1 Cor 9:27, 10:12, Gal 5:1,4, Phil 3:11-14, 1 Tim 4:1, 5:15, Heb 3:12-14, 6:4-6, 2 Pet 2:15,20-21. These I consider the most compelling, but there are many others as well: e.g.: 1 Sam 11:6, 18:11-12, Ezek 18:24, 33:12-13,18, Gal 4:9, Col 1:23, Heb 6:11-12, 10:23,26,29,36,39, 12:15, Rev 2:4-5.]

    [Many evangelical Protestants claim to have an absolute "assurance," but when all is said and done, both biblically and epistemologically, they simply can't attain to this certitude, and are no more "certain" than a devout Catholic or Orthodox is. Such claims are simply unproven and unprovable. In other words, Protestant "assurance" involves the following "argument" in a vicious circle: in order to possess assurance of salvation you must believe that you have salvation. This has been called "fiducial faith," and is completely subjective, every bit as much as the Mormon "burning in the bosom." Martin Luther himself illustrates the incoherence of this innovation:

    We must day by day struggle towards greater and greater certainty . . . Everyone should therefore accustom himself resolutely to the persuasion that he is in a state of grace . . . Should he feel a doubt, then let him exercise faith; he must beat down his doubts and acquire certainty . . . The matter of justification is difficult and delicate, not indeed in itself, for in itself it is as certain as can be, but in our regard; of this I have frequent experience.
    {In Hartmann Grisar, Luther, London: 1917, v.4, pp.437-443} ]

    4) CONCEPT AND REALITY OF REPROBATION
    By Reprobation is understood the eternal Resolve of God's Will to exclude certain rational creatures from eternal bliss. While God, by His grace, positively cooperates in the supernatural merits, which lead to beatification, He merely permits sin, which leads to eternal damnation.

    Regarding the content of the resolve of Reprobation, a distinction is made between positive and negative Reprobation, according as the Divine resolve of Reprobation has for its object condemnation to the eternal punishment of hell, or exclusion from the Beatific Vision. Having regard to the reason for Reprobation, a distinction is made between conditioned and unconditioned (absolute) Reprobation, insofar as the Divine resolve of Reprobation is dependent on, or independent of the prevision of future demerits.

    GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide)

    The reality of Reprobation is not formally defined, but it is the general teaching of the Church.

    5) POSITIVE REPROBATION

    Heretical Predestinationism in its various forms (the Southern Gallic priest Lucidus in the 5th century; the monk Gottschalk in the 9th century, according to reports of his opponents, which, however, find no confirmation in his recently re-discovered writings; Wycliffe, Hus, and esp. Calvin), teaches a positive predetermination to sin, and an unconditional Predestination to the eternal punishment of hell, that is, without consideration of future demerits. This was rejected as false doctrine by the Particular Synods of Orange, Quiercy & Valence and by the Council of Trent. Unconditioned positive Reprobation leads to a denial of the universality of the Divine Desire for salvation, and of the Redemption, and contradicts the Justice and Holiness of God as well as the freedom of man.

    According to the teaching of the Church, there is a conditioned positive Reprobation, that is, it occurs with consideration of foreseen future demerits (post et propter praevisa demerita). The conditional nature of Positive Reprobation is demanded by the generality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. This excludes God's desiring in advance the damnation of certain men (cf. 1 Tim 2:4, Ezek 33:11, 2 Pet 3:9) . . .

    6) NEGATIVE REPROBATION

    In the question of Reprobation, the Thomist view favours not an absolute, but only a negative Reprobation. This is conceived by most Thomists as non-election to eternal bliss (non-electio), together with the Divine resolve to permit some rational creatures to fall into sin, and thus by their own guilt to lose eternal salvation. In contrast to the absolute Positive Reprobation of the Predestinarians, Thomists insist on the universality of the Divine Resolve of Salvation and Redemption, the allocation of sufficient graces to the reprobate, and the freedom of man's will. However, it is difficult to find an intrinsic concordance between unconditioned non-election and the universality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. In practice, the unconditioned negative Reprobation of the Thomists involves the same result as the unconditioned positive Reprobation of the heretical Predestinarians, since outside Heaven and Hell there is no third final state.

    Like the Resolve of Predestination the Divine Resolve of Reprobation is immutable, but, without special revelation, its incidence is unknown to men

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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    It is for many of the reasons presented in this article that I believe that the Roman Catholic view of predestination is actually much closer to the Calvinist view than the modern evangelical view is. What the Roman Catholic view does not do justice to is God's promise to preserve those He has regenerated. The various philosophical parties which are described are only capable of pushing certain difficult teachings back or forward a few steps but never capable of really explaining anything. Roman Catholicism, Evangelicalism, and even some Calvinists suffer from the problem of belief in a permissive will of God (contra Calvin).

    Each of the verses cited in reference to infallible knowledge of salvation would have to be dealt with individually and would take more time than I would like to right now. The very fact that we are commanded to make our calling and election sure shows that we can in fact be certain of them and Paul tells people that he knows they are elect.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    It is for many of the reasons presented in this article that I believe that the Roman Catholic view of predestination is actually much closer to the Calvinist view than the modern evangelical view is.
    Charles:

    Have you been hanging around TreyFrog?

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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    St Auqust is quite a cool chap, quite sound. The problem with the rc org is it is very hard to find a 'true Christian' within it.

    I presently work in Lourdes. I should know!

    The people who hear the Word and do nothing about it. For me that is the Roman Catholic. Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breast that fed you...what was the Lords reply, 'Rather' blessed is he who hears Gods word and 'obeys' it...

    Here in Lourdes its like dealing with Diana of the Ephesians. Rows and rows of shops of people making money selling images of Mary. Its very biblical here for me at the moment.

    In my opinion, the RC org does not preach the Gospel. Par se...

    There may be a riot here in a public place soon lol!

    There is one Mediator between men and God, the Man Christ Jesus.

    Whether the rc org holds to some Truth is of no matter, it is what it is doing to the countless millions that bothers me.

    David
    Last edited by Just Grace; 07-04-2006 at 09:33 AM.

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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    Just Grace:

    Much of what you have written could be said about many evangelicals as well and some are worse. The RCC is certainly a very diseased and sick branch of Christianity but I have seen a good many spend a great deal of time complaining about the RCC while doing something worse.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Suspended / Banned katoikei is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    Yeowww,

    The following material from Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford, IL: TAN Books, 1974 {orig. 1952}, pp.242-45) ought to be most helpful for Protestants seeking to understand what Catholics believe about this ever-mysterious, controversial, complex, highly abstract theological question:
    Once you understand how someone thinks it is easier to provide the correct Scriptural response.

    As Chuck correctly states:

    'Much of what you have written could be said about many evangelicals as well and some are worse. The RCC is certainly a very diseased and sick branch of Christianity but I have seen a good many spend a great deal of time complaining about the RCC while doing something worse.'
    and yet again, another most valuable statement:

    The very fact that we are commanded to make our calling and election sure shows that we can in fact be certain of them and Paul tells people that he knows they are elect.
    and finally:

    Each of the verses cited in reference to infallible knowledge of salvation would have to be dealt with individually and would take more time than I would like to right now
    I look forward to a response that does not gender denominational hatred. Please stay focussed!

    His servant,
    katoikei
    (00/16)

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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

    You can see here that Aquinas is closer than some calvinists are


    Thomas Aquinas wrote, "God wills to manifest his goodness in men: in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of his mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others.... Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will. Hence Augustine says, 'Why he draws one, and another he draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err.'"


    Aquinas taught, "God's intention cannot fail... Hence if God intends, while moving it, that the one whose heart he moves should attain to grace, he will infallibly attain to it, according to John 6:45, 'Everyone that has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.'"
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    9
    Last edited by lionovjudah; 07-05-2006 at 08:14 AM. Reason: duplicate
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    Those who want to exalt Aquinas to the sky have not studied his overall theology. He was and is the theologian of darkness, works instead of grace, and hopeless groveling in subjective uncertainty. If you have any doubts about this, go read some of the Catholic websites promoting his theology until you are blue in the face.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    Aquinas was not a consistent predestinarian, by the way. Far from it!

    If we have only the doctrines of universal sinfulness and divine predestination, without the doctrine of free and unmerited grace, we are of all men most miserable. We have a building that consists of a foundation and a roof with nothing but sand in-between! Such a building crashes in disgrace at the least amount of exposure to the tormenting fury of the elements. Without grace, a christendumb doctrine of predestination is no better than the similar doctrine of the Mohammedans--such a notion posits a God who is unjust in his sovereignty and creates meritorious works in people as the method of making them pleasing to himself! I have no use for the doctrines of Mohammed or Aquinas; God will cast them into hell forever at the judgment.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    Those who want to exalt Aquinas to the sky have not studied his overall theology. He was and is the theologian of darkness, works instead of grace, and hopeless groveling in subjective uncertainty. If you have any doubts about this, go read some of the Catholic websites promoting his theology until you are blue in the face.

    Perhaps this is true Bob, I am by far not an aquinas expert. But based SOLEY on the quotes I provided, he is solid. And as you have found some good writings by men who would be deemed heretical, I will alot Aquinas the same measure.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    I have no use for the doctrines of Mohammed or Aquinas; God will cast them into hell forever at the judgment.

    To clarify, I was referring to the DOCTRINES, i.e., such teachings are works that God will burn up.

    http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/...ml#FSQ114OUTP1
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    Those who want to exalt Aquinas to the sky have not studied his overall theology. He was and is the theologian of darkness, works instead of grace, and hopeless groveling in subjective uncertainty. If you have any doubts about this, go read some of the Catholic websites promoting his theology until you are blue in the face.


    Again, there is no injustice in this with God, for no creature has merited or is due the preaching of the Gospel or the opportunity to be saved, which opportunity is wholly gratuitous and is not rendered to any man as due. Rather, before men are brought to the Faith, without which sins cannot be taken away, they are due only damnation due to original sin and mortal sins. The saved are not chosen, or even given an opportunity to be saved, but purely through grace. They are saved only because God wishes to realise His mercy in them, even as He realises His wrath in the damned. It is all to the glory of His goodness. He deprives no creature of its due, whether He saves or damns. No one can complain. God does what He does because He is good, that is, in order to manifest His goodness in various ways, and it is not unlawful for Him to do as He chooses so as to manifest His goodness. Each shall receive as God freely ordains, and there is no injustice in this with God. If He wishes to leave some men without the hearing of the gospel then that is His business. Those who are saved will see these matters clearly, and they will see the gratuity of the grace that they have received, clearly in the fate of the damned, that none may glory but in God alone.


    And:

    “For God alone can change the will, as shown above. Consequently the ordering of human actions, the principle of which is the will, must be ascribed to God alone. So therefore inasmuch as all that happens here below is subject to Divine Providence, as being pre-ordained, and as it were "fore-spoken (1, 116, 1)


    God is the transcendent First Cause of all being, including every act and every mode of an act; He is the First Cause Himself Unmoved, without which there is no act.


    God, therefore, is the first cause, Who moves causes both natural and voluntary. And just as by moving natural causes He does not prevent their acts being natural, so by moving voluntary causes He does not deprive their actions of being voluntary: but rather is He the cause of this very thing in them; for He operates in each thing according to its own nature.” (1, 83, 1)



    And neither is reprobation given because of foreseen demerits, but rather God first intends that a man should be damned, for the completion of the universe, then He permits the sins which are the means of his damnation.( I know he uses the dreded word permits)


    From the very fact that nothing resists the divine will, it follows that not only those things happen that God wills to happen, but that they happen necessarily or contingently according to His will.” (1, 19, 8)

    If God moves the will to anything, it is incompatible with this supposition, that the will be not moved thereto.” (1, 2, 10, 4)


    Predestination presupposes election in the order of reason; and election presupposes love. The reason of this is that predestination, as stated above, is a part of providence. Now providence, as also prudence, is the plan existing in the intellect directing the ordering of some things towards an end; as was proved above. But nothing is directed towards an end unless the will for that end already exists. Whence the predestination of some to eternal salvation presupposes, in the order of reason, that God wills their salvation; and to this belong both election and love:---love, inasmuch as He wills them this particular good of eternal salvation; since to love is to wish well to anyone, as stated above:---election, inasmuch as He wills this good to some in preference to others; since He reprobates some, as stated above. Election and love, however, are differently ordered in God, and in ourselves: because in us the will in loving does not cause good, but we are incited to love by the good which already exists; and therefore we choose someone to love, and so election in us precedes love. In God, however, it is the reverse. For His will, by which in loving He wishes good to someone, is the cause of that good possessed by some in preference to others. Thus it is clear that love precedes election in the order of reason, and election precedes predestination. Whence all the predestinate are objects of election and love.” (1, 23, 4)


    The above do not appear to be speakign of merits. Perhaps your conclusion on Aquinas is not right Bob?


    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

  14. #14
    Suspended / Banned katoikei is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    'For His will, by which in loving He wishes good to someone, is the cause of that good possessed by some in preference to others.'

    (from Thomas Aquinas quote above)
    Lion,

    I suspect Thomas Aquinas would have struggled some with Romans 3:10-19 (I do not think it appears in the Summa Theologica)

    What think ye scholars?


    _____________________

    Christian Biblical Exegesis in English Translation, c. 1200–1515

    Index of Biblical citations in the Summa Theologica

    Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica
    Last edited by katoikei; 07-06-2006 at 05:40 AM. Reason: extra link added

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    High Grace Nonconformist Facilitator Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby's Avatar
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    Re: How different is the Catholic View ?

    I have read the entire Summa on Aquinas' doctrine of grace; he teaches only a doctrine of salvation by transforming grace within--no doctrine of Christ's imputed righteousness, justification by faith alone, or assurance of preservation or election at all. Like Augustine before him, he taught justification by transforming 'grace' in the power of the Holy Spirit which merits salvation. No doctrine of grace as unmerited favor received in the person and finished atonement of Jesus Christ. In fact, the language of the doctrine of 'grace' in the Summa was used extensively in the formation of the Council of Trent.

    I have a whole Roman Catholic work on this subject in my library ("The Theology of Man and Grace" by Edmund Fortman) that I could quote till I'm blue in the face--well, forget it. If anyone has further interest please consider this study:

    http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=121

    I'm moving on to other things so this will be my last post in this thread.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

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