Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: The Trial of Athanasius

  1. #1
    wildboar has a spectacular aura about wildboar has a spectacular aura about wildboar has a spectacular aura about wildboar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Middleville, MI
    Age
    34
    Posts
    3,577
    Real Name
    Chuck
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    The Trial of Athanasius

    The following is taken from Theodoret's Ecclesiastical History and is a recounting of a particular trial of Athanasius (the great defender of the Deity of Christ).

    Chapter XXVIII.—The Council of Tyre.

    Arsenius was a bishop of the Meletian faction. The men of his party put him in a place of concealment, and charged him to remain there as long as possible. They then cut off the right hand of a corpse, embalmed it, placed it in a wooden case, and carried it about everywhere, declaring that it was the hand of Arsenius, who had been murdered by Athanasius. But the all-seeing eye did not permit Arsenius to remain long in concealment. He was first seen alive in Egypt; then in the Thebaid; afterwards he was led by Divine Providence to Tyre, where the hand of tragic fame was brought before the council. The friends of Athanasius hunted him up, and brought him to an inn, where they compelled him to lie hid for a time. Early in the morning the great Athanasius came to the council.

    First of all a woman of lewd life was brought in, who deposed in a loud and impudent manner that she had vowed perpetual virginity, but that Athanasius, who had lodged in her house, had violated her chastity. After she had made her charge, the accused came forward, and with him a presbyter worthy of all praise, by name Timotheus. The court ordered Athanasius to reply to the indictment; but he was silent, as if he had not been Athanasius. Timotheus, however, addressed her thus: “Have I, O woman, ever conversed with you, or have I entered your house?” She replied with still greater effrontery, screaming aloud in her dispute with Timotheus, and, pointing at him with her finger, exclaimed, “It was you who robbed me of my virginity; it was you who stripped me of my chastity;” adding other indelicate expressions which are used by shameless women. The devisers of this calumny were put to shame, and all the bishops who were privy to it, blushed.

    The woman was now being led out of the Court, but the great Athanasius protested that instead of sending her away they ought to examine her, and learn the name of the hatcher of the plot. Hereupon his accusers yelled and shouted that he had perpetrated other viler crimes, of which it was utterly impossible that he could by any art or ingenuity 63be cleared; and that eyes, not ears, would decide on the evidence. Having said this, they exhibited the famous box and exposed the embalmed hand to view. At this sight all the spectators uttered a loud cry. Some believed the accusation to be true; the others had no doubt of the falsehood, and thought that Arsenius was lurking somewhere or other in concealment. When at length, after some difficulty, a little silence was obtained, the accused asked his judges whether any of them knew Arsenius. Several of them replying that they knew him well, Athanasius gave orders that he should be brought before them. Then he again asked them, “Is this the right Arsenius? Is this the man I murdered? Is this the man those people mutilated after his murder by cutting off his right hand?” When they had confessed that it was the same individual, Athanasius pulled off his cloak, and exhibited two hands, both the right and the left, and said, “Let no one seek for a third hand, for man has received two hands from the Creator and no more.”

    Even after this plain proof the calumniators and the judges who were privy to the crime, instead of hiding themselves, or praying that the earth might open and swallow them up, raised an uproar and commotion in the assembly, and declared that Athanasius was a sorcerer, and that he had by his magical incantations bewitched the eyes of men. The very men who a moment before had accused him of murder now strove to tear him in pieces and to murder him. But those whom the emperor had entrusted with the preservation of order saved the life of Athanasius by dragging him away, and hurrying him on board a ship[1].

    When he appeared before the emperor, he described all the dramatic plot which had been got up to ruin him. The calumniators sent bishops attached to their faction into Mareotis, viz., Theognis, bishop of Nicæa, Theodorus, bishop of Perinthus, Maris, bishop of Chalcedon, Narcissus of Cilicia[1], with others of the same sentiments. Mareotis is a district near Alexandria, and derives its name from the lake Maria[1]. Here they invented other falsehoods, and, forging the reports of the trial, mixed up the charges which had been shown to be false with fresh accusations, as if they had been true, and despatched them to the emperor.
    Consecration of the Church of Jerusalem.--Banishment of St. Athanasius.

    Chapter XXIX.—Consecration of the Church of Jerusalem.—Banishment of St. Athanasius.

    All the bishops who were present at the council of Tyre, with all others from every quarter, were commanded by the emperor to proceed to Ælia[1] to consecrate the churches which he had there erected. The emperor despatched also a number of officials of the most kindly disposition, remarkable for piety and fidelity, whom he ordered to furnish abundant supplies of provisions, not only to the bishops and their followers, but to the vast multitudes who flocked from all parts to Jerusalem. The holy altar was decorated with imperial hangings and with golden vessels set with gems. When the splendid festival was concluded, each bishop returned to his own diocese. The emperor was highly gratified when informed of the splendour and magnificence of the function, and blessed the Author of all good for having thus granted his petition.

    Athanasius having complained of his unjust condemnation, the emperor commanded the bishops against whom this complaint was directed to present themselves at court. Upon their arrival, they desisted from urging any of their former calumnies, because they knew how clearly they could be refuted; but they made it appear that Athanasius had threatened to prevent the exportation of corn. The emperor believed what they said, and banished him to a city of Gaul called Treves[1]. This occurred in the thirtieth year of the emperor’s reign[1].
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

  2. #2
    Suspended / Banned katoikei is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Africa
    Posts
    642
    Real Name
    Eric
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: The Trial of Athanasius

    Thanks Chuck. I have always enjoyed a good read and this kept me all of 30 minutes chewing and munching, I am a slow reader...very sl...............ow. I first studied Athanasius from Jonathan Swifts writings, and then read the Incarnation endorsed by C.S. Lewis, and finally got to learn of these banishments. The term Athanasius Contra Mundo ? (I think this is the correct Latin) really blew me away. Athanasius was a real defender of the faith!...there is one document which contains hunderds? of refutations of the false teachings about Jesus. Infact the way I understand it is that he scoured the Scriptures for every single passage about the divinity of Christ, and that most defences that are raised against those who would seek to oppose the Scriptures on this matter originate from Athanasius tireless work. I look forward to the moreness that this thread is going to bring. Peace.

  3. #3
    High Grace Nonconformist Facilitator Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Southern California
    Age
    57
    Posts
    3,717
    Blog Entries
    9
    Real Name
    Robert Higby
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 203 Times in 85 Posts

    Re: The Trial of Athanasius

    I certainly agree that Athanasius defended sound teaching on the person of Christ in opposition to many heresies of that age.

    I would also point out that Athanasius did not have a sound view on the SAVING WORK of Christ or other basic issues of the gospel. His only contribution of value was defending Christ's divine/human person.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

  4. #4
    wildboar has a spectacular aura about wildboar has a spectacular aura about wildboar has a spectacular aura about wildboar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Middleville, MI
    Age
    34
    Posts
    3,577
    Real Name
    Chuck
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: The Trial of Athanasius

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Higby
    I would also point out that Athanasius did not have a sound view on the SAVING WORK of Christ or other basic issues of the gospel. His only contribution of value was defending Christ's divine/human person.
    Although I disagree with him on a good number of issues, he also made a significant contribution to the development of the doctrine of the atonement and the doctrine of the church. His arguments for the deity of Christ were all tied in with his beliefs about soteriology (only God can save) so if as you suggest his soteriology was way off, then we would also have to conclude that his arguments for the deity of Christ are way off as well. At any rate, I think it a little silly to make a statement like "His only contribution of value..." about Athanasius. He certainly showed the way a person who loves Christ's church conducts himself. If anyone had reason to engage in church flight it would have been him. He was severely persecuted by leaders within the church and banished several times.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

  5. #5
    Suspended / Banned katoikei is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Africa
    Posts
    642
    Real Name
    Eric
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: The Trial of Athanasius

    Dear Chuck,

    Athansius was completely consumed by the Scriptures and though the whole world was against him, he remained against the whole world, defending the proposition that Jesus Christ is God

    His servant,
    katoikei
    (00/21)

  6. #6
    High Grace Nonconformist Facilitator Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Southern California
    Age
    57
    Posts
    3,717
    Blog Entries
    9
    Real Name
    Robert Higby
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 203 Times in 85 Posts

    Re: The Trial of Athanasius

    The Athanasian creed mentions the atonement but does not speak at length on the work of Christ--only the person of Christ. Those who think otherwise are welcome to read it.

    I do not assume that because certain patristics had a sound doctrine of Christ's person that they had a sound doctrine of his work. If the doctrine of his work was expounded upon from scripture as orthodox as the doctrine of his person, the darkness of the great apostasy would have been severly minimized. The opponents of the gospel, such as the Roman Catholic Church, would not be able to stand in the tradition of such men as Athanasius if that were the case.

    From the patristic writings and works on patristic doctrine that I have, I see no evidence that Athanasius was better than Augustine or later Aquinas on the gospel.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

  7. #7
    wildboar has a spectacular aura about wildboar has a spectacular aura about wildboar has a spectacular aura about wildboar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Middleville, MI
    Age
    34
    Posts
    3,577
    Real Name
    Chuck
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: The Trial of Athanasius

    Higby:

    The Athanasian creed wasn't written by Athanasius. Regardless though, it was written to address a particular issue. You can't condemn it for not addressing what it wasn't intended to address.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

  8. #8
    High Grace Nonconformist Facilitator Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Southern California
    Age
    57
    Posts
    3,717
    Blog Entries
    9
    Real Name
    Robert Higby
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 203 Times in 85 Posts

    Re: The Trial of Athanasius

    WB: The Athanasian creed wasn't written by Athanasius. Regardless though, it was written to address a particular issue. You can't condemn it for not addressing what it wasn't intended to address.

    I do not condemn the Athanasian creed. Where have I stated this?

    The notion that the 5th century organized church had an orthodox soteriology that supported their Christological confessions certainly needs to be challenged. Let those who believe that Augustine and Athanasius confessed an orthodox soteriology bring out quotations from their writings to support this!

    In that age theology was territorial. In times when the local state enforced the Trinity and Deity of Christ, a pastor from the East would have a band of thugs enforcing the law deck him, put the sword to the throat, and demand the utterance of the words HOMOUSIOS! Many decades later, when the state of the same region had changed to enforce the opposite doctrines, the same pastor would have a band of thugs enforcing the law deck him, put the sword to the throat, and demand the utterance of the words NO HOMOUSIOS! So persecution was because of state arrogance--that is it. Athanasius fell into dispopularity and subject to the death sentence once the state doctrine of Christology changed to deny that the Father and Son were of one substance. All of this was the consequence of Constantinian state religion gone to its logical consequences.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

  9. #9
    Suspended / Banned katoikei is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Africa
    Posts
    642
    Real Name
    Eric
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: The Trial of Athanasius

    Wasn't there something that Athanasius had added onto the creed, at the end, that was unsigned by Arius ? (I am definitely going to go back into the History studies, once I am finished this book. That reminds me, it is time to take a more severe leave of posting here.)

    His servant,
    katoikei
    (Watcher status achieved)

  10. #10
    wildboar has a spectacular aura about wildboar has a spectacular aura about wildboar has a spectacular aura about wildboar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Middleville, MI
    Age
    34
    Posts
    3,577
    Real Name
    Chuck
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: The Trial of Athanasius

    Wasn't there something that Athanasius had added onto the creed, at the end, that was unsigned by Arius ? (I am definitely going to go back into the History studies, once I am finished this book. That reminds me, it is time to take a more severe leave of posting here.)
    Athanasius never really wrote a creed. There was an ending to the Nicene creed of 325 that was not part of the creed ratified in Constantinople in 381 that read:

    And whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not, or that before he was begotten he was not, or that he was made of things that were not, or that he is of a different substance or essence [from the Father] or that he is a creature, or subject to change or conversion--all that so say, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

  11. #11
    High Grace Nonconformist Facilitator Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby is just really nice Robert R. Higby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Southern California
    Age
    57
    Posts
    3,717
    Blog Entries
    9
    Real Name
    Robert Higby
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 203 Times in 85 Posts

    Re: The Trial of Athanasius

    And whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not, or that before he was begotten he was not, or that he was made of things that were not, or that he is of a different substance or essence [from the Father] or that he is a creature, or subject to change or conversion--all that so say, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them.

    Amen!
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

  12. #12
    Suspended / Banned Bacon is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    20
    Real Name
    Bill
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: The Trial of Athanasius

    Athanasius was a thug and the creed that bears his name is a travesty.

    The Creed consists of 40 assertions. Only 1 or 2 innocuous assertions in it can be found in scripture - the rest are complete balderdash - I challenge anyone on this list to find them in scripture!

    In fact, I would place money that NO ONE ON THIS LIST CAN SHOW WHERE 10 OF THE 40 ASSERTIONS are made in scripture!

    If you want to know the true character of Athanasius and how christianity moved over to Catholicism, see "When Jesus Became God" - by Rubenstein - a really thorough and fascinating history.

  13. #13
    Suspended / Banned katoikei is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Africa
    Posts
    642
    Real Name
    Eric
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: The Trial of Athanasius

    I am not sure how to greet you Bacon, good evening, good morning, good day. Insulting those who are unalbe to defend themselves, making assumptions about their writings, making wild assertions without substantiating them and giving the title of a book as your only evidence is rather flimsy, and how do I say this...thug-like. Perhaps seeing as you are presenting an accusation and challenge, accompanied by a gamble you should present a stronger case, it sounds like you are willing to lose a lot without any substantial evidence. I reminds me a little of the man who said, 'I can prove God does not exist!' and then spent the rest of his life defending the premise. Maybe you are next. Welcome to the list.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts