I always seem to be ask that same question, "When were you saved?" Many would come up with the date that they believed/had faith, (whatever that means). I always give them this answer:
2000 years ago! They freak out. Now remember, "when" is a time word so I am not speaking of eternal things but things manifested in time. Can anyone please tell me why Christians contiually want to place there salvation on their faith or believing?
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
Originally Posted by jmgipson
John, I do not even think faith/believing has anything to do with this "buzz" question. Here is a link:
http://www.bible.ca/g-sinners-prayer.htm
It has a long long history.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.GALATIANS 5:22
I don't believe it is completely wrong to speak of God saving a person on a certain day. The Bible speaks of salvation from several different perspectives. The problem comes in if you focus exclusively on a single aspect as modern evangelicalism following in the footsteps of revivalism has done. I think we Biblically can speak of God saving a person when he comes to faith. But what has happened in modern evangelicalism is that people have taken their faith and not placed in Christ but in the sinner's prayer. People even sing songs about which day of the week they were saved on. They view the sudden and dramatic damascus road conversion experience as the norm (even though most of them don't expect people to be blinded and then healed from that blindness and to see a bright light etc.). I for one couldn't tell you when God saved me. I cannot remember a time when I did not know the Lord. I find that this is a common experience for those raised in covenant homes. Others are saved later on in life. Some seem to convert very quickly, others more gradually and Scripture speaks of a number of people falling into these different catagories.
There's an interesting article by Michael Horton on how the altar call has replaced the sacraments in evangelical churches: http://www.modernreformation.org/mh97means.htm
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
I guess being 'born of the Spirit' does put one out of the time thing. Sort of like quantum physics. I like to remember two special days. The day Jesus stopped me from blowing my brains out, and the day He baptised me in the Holy Spirit. After that it all gets a little blurry.
I'm curious what this is you are referring to?
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Try Acts 8:14-16 / Ephesians 1:13-14 / Galatians 3:2
Last edited by katoikei; 07-22-2006 at 01:31 PM. Reason: The Good Book
Lion, great article there, not a very great site though. Quote:
- Calvinism is a system of false doctrine that is taught in most evangelical denominations.
- There are 5 major points of Calvinism. These 5 points are known by the acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
- None of the 5 point are taught in the Bible.
- All five points must be accepted or rejected as a unit. Refute any one element and the whole system falls! ("Domino Theology")
The "sinners prayer" is not in the Bible, and won’t save you! It is a false doctrine that developed from Calvinism and was first practiced less than 50 years ago.
For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me. (Ps. 40:12)
I have to give the tri-dimensional answer to this as to every aspect of soteriology. When was I saved?
1. In God's PURPOSE, transcendent of time in God's immutable planned salvation in Christ's person and work.
2. In God's ATONEMENT, nearly 2000 years ago in God's historical act of redemption through Christ's person and work (which was planned transcendent of time).
3. In my EXPERIENCE, when I was first caused to change my mind about Christ's person and work and believe in him.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
ECHO, ECHO!
On number 3 I would say that like Wildboar, I was born in a Christian home, or whatever that means. I was probably conceived in a church pew... (we had a cozy building) my father's sperm and my mothers ovum were probably Christians. But I don't think I was SAVED (note the distinction SAVED AND CHRISTIAN) until January 1991, after being a minister for years preaching arminianism and God hit me with His Sovereign Grace much as a miracle. That was the day that I can remember that number 3 REALLY happened in my life. I have the testimony in this forum more times that I wished to have written it...
Milt
Grace Ambassador
A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace
My pledge to other members:
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11
ROFL
Milt this is very funny maybe you should do stand up.
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I would add at least a fourth and perhaps a fifth aspect to it. We can say we will be saved in the future, at the resurrection. This is the type of experiental salvation that the Bible normally speaks of.
Milt:
I believe that God is more than capable of giving faith to infants and even the unborn and believe he does so on a regular basis. I won't delve into the discussion since I've posted enough on it already but I just wanted to clarify so you know what I mean.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
WB:
Even in our hottest discussions I don't recall having disagreed with that...
Milt
Grace Ambassador
A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace
My pledge to other members:
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11
My father's sperm and my mother's ovum did it in the MISSIONARY position...
Milt
Grace Ambassador
A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace
My pledge to other members:
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11
Alright - now that's a little too distasteful for me. - Closing thread....
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Thanks Brandan!
I do apologize for my distasteful answers. It is not my style and it will not happen again.
Milt
Grace Ambassador
A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace
My pledge to other members:
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11
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