Satan shall be loosed

[beloved57]

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

When is this time frame ?At the end of the thousand years , Does this Imply that there will be a time right before the second coming of christ when no one will be able to believe the truth because satan has been set free to decieve the world ? And the elect have already been sealed ? As in rev 7: 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Your comments will be appreciated...

[katoikei]

Dear Darryl,

I am 48 years young and have read more books about the book of Revelation, than the book itself. It seems that every scholar has at some point or the other, rendered a chart or some sort of eschatology (I think is the right word) about this fascinating book.

There is a key to Revelation and it is in the study of Daniel.

However, one problem with Daniel. Daniel will not open unless you have made a complete study of all the books of the Bible. The reason for that is this: The book of Daniel is connected to every book of the Bible.

I remember when I first heard Ray Stedmann lecture on this, I was very frustrated, because I did not really enjoy reading the Old Testament. It used to put me straight to sleep. I used to get my kicks out of the Pauline Epistles, but God helped me to get into the Gospels, and finally by His grace, I have been able to get into the Old Testament, I am currently in 1 Samuel and counting down to Malachi, at which point I will return to Daniel, and then Revelation.

When I have done that I guess I will be able to give you a good answer, but for now I hope you stay away from all the heretical teachings and just let the Lord guide you in His Word, by His Spirit.

Katoikei.


ps. I am currently off-site and will post again after Christmas. Peace to you all.

[wildboar]

The text does not say that nobody will believe the truth, in fact the very opposite is implied if you read on. Satan is allowed to go and deceive those scattered about in remote nations who do not believe the truth and gather them together to make war against the saints. They circle around the saints and God sends fire upon them to devour them. This will happen just before the judgment after the full number of Gentiles and Jews have been brought into the church.

[beloved57]

The text does not say that nobody will believe the truth, in fact the very opposite is implied if you read on. Satan is allowed to go and deceive those scattered about in remote nations who do not believe the truth and gather them together to make war against the saints. They circle around the saints and God sends fire upon them to devour them. This will happen just before the judgment after the full number of Gentiles and Jews have been brought into the church.

Thanks , wildboar..I see what your saying, but was not the binding of satan inorder to have the gospel spread to save Gods elect throughout the nations in the first place ? So by implication only, would not the loosing of satan mean that all the elect have been sealed and now the rest will be blinded? , as in 2thess 2:

5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Does not that period of time fit, antichrist is now ruling via false religon ? He has been loosed, the man of sin is reigning ?

[wildboar]

There is and has always been false religion since the time of the apostles and well before that even. There are certainly very unfaithful churches but there are also faithful churches today. Given Jesus prayer in John 17 I believe that eventually there will be unity among the now fragmented body of believers. There is also plenty in Scripture to show the growth of the kingdom on this earth. Daniel speaks of the kingdom of heaven as a stone that gets larger and larger until it fills the whole earth. We obviously can tell from Revelation that there will still be unbelievers right before the judgment but the number of believers on this earth is not described as a small remnant at that time but as a large city. The unbelievers gather around the city just before the judgment and just when it looks as if the church will be destroyed God sends down fire. The kingdom has not grown to the extent that it will have before Satan is loosed. The things you are speaking of have always existed.

[beloved57]

There is and has always been false religion since the time of the apostles and well before that even.

Oh no doubt about it. However I do believe scripture speaks about a time that would come when it would greatly intensify and prosper. 2 thess 2:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

There are certainly very unfaithful churches but there are also faithful churches today.

So they say, I would love to know of a church that uncompromisingly preaches the true gospel.

Given Jesus prayer in John 17 I believe that eventually there will be unity among the now fragmented body of believers.

That will happen for sure, maybe not in church settings though !

Matt 13: 30 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

There is also plenty in Scripture to show the growth of the kingdom on this earth.

Please explain , are you speaking of post mill ?

Daniel speaks of the kingdom of heaven as a stone that gets larger and larger until it fills the whole earth. We obviously can tell from Revelation that there will still be unbelievers right before the judgment but the number of believers on this earth is not described as a small remnant at that time but as a large city. The unbelievers gather around the city just before the judgment and just when it looks as if the church will be destroyed God sends down fire. The kingdom has not grown to the extent that it will have before Satan is loosed. The things you are speaking of have always existed.

Please explain your eschatological view, I am Amil....

[wildboar]

beloved:

I doubt you would find more faithful preaching during the time just before the Reformation. If you believe there are false teachings in the church work towards Reform and towards the unity of the body of Christ as Scripture commands us to.

I spent several years as a rather staunch amillenialist but gradually became convinced that there are some Scriptural problems with the position. I think there is some severe contorting of Scripture done to fit the particular eschatological position. I think the same is true of many Postmillenialists as well. It wasn't until fairly recently that postmillennialism and amillennialism were distinguished. If you read Calvin's commentaries for instance you will find that sometimes he adopts what would later be called a postmil interpretation of a passage and sometimes an amil. Of all the books I've read so far on the eschatological debate, Postmillenialism by Mathison seems to be the most honest with the text. For instance, whereas many postmills try to make Isa. 65 speaking of only the present age and many amills try to say it only speaks of the age after the consummation, Mathison believes elements of both are present and seems to make the most sense out of it. So yes, I'm a rather moderate, non-utopian postmillenialist if you want to catagorize me.

Although the church is in great need of Reformation, it is still easier to find a church where you can hear the Gospel than it was during the middle ages. I don't agree with all that is said at my church but they do preach the Gospel. You are more than welcome to come and visit us sometime. I know of churches in various denominations which preach the true Gospel. What is this magical era that you believe the full Gospel was being preached in and has since stopped? Would your criteria for a true church apply to any age at all?

I believe that 2 Thessalonians 2 is was fulfilled in the first century. Nobody who believes these events surround the 2nd coming can give a plausible explanation as to why some of the Thessalonians falsely believed that the day already came(v. 2). If Paul were referring to the 2nd coming here there would be no reason to give explanation as to what must happen first in his argument to convince them that it hadn't happened yet. He would merely tell them that Christ himself would appear and be visible and so on and so forth. In verse 6 Paul referred to the man of lawlessness as being presently restrained. The "falling away" in verse 3 can be simply translated as "rebellion" and probably has reference to the rebelling of the Jews against Rome. The Jews did this within 20 years of the writing of this epistle. It is clear from the context that the man of lawlessness existed at the time Paul wrote the letter but was being restrained. Nero fit this description perfectly When Paul wrote 2 Thess. Nero was not yet emperor. His step-father Claudius sat on the throne. However, shortly after Paul wrote this epistle, Claudius was "taken out of the way". Claudius was murdered by Nero's mother, Agrippina. The "mystery of lawlessness" may refer to Agrippina's ongoing plotting and scheming to get her son on the throne or it may refer to Nero's reign which was characterized by lawlessness, wickedness, and cruelty which even repulsed pagan Romans. He was also the first of the emporers to relentlessly persecute Christians and his death ocurred during the midst of God's judgment on Jerusalem in 68 in the middle of the Jewish war.

[rlhuckle]

I think there is a present application to these verses:


2Th 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In most mainstream and evangelical churches, God's sovereignty has been replaced with an assortment of 'decisional regenerational' schemes (depending upon denomination) which when looked at logically, all end up in man's choice being the deciding factor in salvation. Man sits in the temple of God exalting himself and his own choice. Can any deny this to be the case?

The amil view has Satan bound so that men are not as bad as they could be, which leads one to think that there is a coming time when men will become as bad as they could be and really persecute those who promote an absolutely sovereign God. Gog and Magog could very well be unbelievers and the false believing 'church.'

Wildboar--believers are also commanded to come out of the unclean thing. The organized denominations who think of themselves as the ecclesia are missing something I think. The ecclesia is a spiritual unity regardless of man-made distinctions.

[wildboar]

Since the world does not consist of Platonic forms in which images are just a shadow of the true form, if there is spiritual unity there should also be visible unity. If there is not an outward unity in the truth it is hard to see how Jesus' prayer in John 17 makes any sense when he prays that the church might be one that the world might believe. The early apostolic church was certainly visible and did not live merely as independent churches but believed themselves to all be part of a single church.

I certainly agree that decisional regeneration is a false doctrine but contextually that's not what the passage is speaking of. I don't think we should allegorize to come up with some deeper spiritual meaning that the text does not appear to be teaching. "That man of sin" is a particular person.

[rlhuckle]

Since the world does not consist of Platonic forms in which images are just a shadow of the true form, if there is spiritual unity there should also be visible unity. If there is not an outward unity in the truth it is hard to see how Jesus' prayer in John 17 makes any sense when he prays that the church might be one that the world might believe. The early apostolic church was certainly visible and did not live merely as independent churches but believed themselves to all be part of a single church.

I fully agree that there should be a visible unity--but the basis of that unity is what is at issue. The world looks at the church today (the larger part following false doctrines) and basically sees it on the same level as Islam, Hinduism, etc.--just another 'path' to the same place. This is because unity and anti-intellectualism are encouraged over sound doctrinal understanding. I don't believe this is what Christ had in mind in His high priestly prayer--He obviously saw this time and was praying for those who would believe; that they would find each other and come together under true Gospel unity (although tares would certainly be present).

I certainly agree that decisional regeneration is a false doctrine but contextually that's not what the passage is speaking of. I don't think we should allegorize to come up with some deeper spiritual meaning that the text does not appear to be teaching. "That man of sin" is a particular person.

Gill takes a slightly diffferent view of the phrase:

"and that man of sin be revealed; who was now hid, though secretly working; by whom is meant not only any particular person or individual; not the devil, for though he is the wicked one, a damned spirit, an opposer, an adversary of God and Christ, and his people, and who has affected deity, and sought to be worshipped, and even by Christ himself; yet the man of sin is here distinguished from Satan, 2Ti_2:9 nor is any particular emperor of Rome intended, as Caius Caligula, or Nero, for though these were monsters of iniquity, and set up themselves as gods, yet they sat not in the temple of God; nor is Simon Magus designed, who was a very wicked man, a sorcerer, and who gave out himself to be some great one, and was called the great power of God, before big profession of faith in Christ; and afterwards affirmed that he was God, the Father in Samaria, the Son in Judea, and the Spirit in the rest of the nations of the world; and, because of his signs and lying wonders, had a statue erected by the Roman emperor with this inscription, "to Simon the holy god"; but then this wicked man was now already revealed: nor is this to be understood of a certain Jew, that is to be begotten by the devil on a virgin of the tribe of Dan, and who is to reign three years and a half, and then to be destroyed by Christ, which is a fable of the Papists; but a succession of men is here meant, as a king is used sometimes for an order and succession of kings, Deu_17:18 and an high priest for that whole order, from Aaron's time to the dissolution of it, Heb_9:7 so here it intends the whole hierarchy of Rome, monks, friars, priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, and especially popes, who may well be called "the man of sin", because notoriously sinful; not only sinners, but sin itself, a sink of sin, monsters of iniquity, spiritual wickednesses in high places: it is not easy to reckon up their impieties, their adulteries, incest, sodomy, rapine, murder, avarice, simony, perjury, lying, necromancy, familiarity with the devil, idolatry, witchcraft, and what not? and not only have they been guilty of the most notorious crimes themselves, but have been the patrons and encouragers of others in sin; by dispensing with the laws of God and man, by making sins to be venial, by granting indulgences and pardon for the worst of crimes, by licensing brothel houses, and countenancing all manner of wickedness; and therefore it is no wonder to hear of the following epithet,"

Gill continues on with the next phrase of the verse here, however, Barnes also discusses the interpretation and argues if it merely indicates an 'individual' or 'individuals of like character.' While Gill accuses only the RCC with this anti-Christian character (must have been more unity under true doctrine in his day--at least in his opinion), I believe it has a much wider application today regarding the established denominations.

[Robert R. Higby]

While Gill accuses only the RCC with this anti-Christian character (must have been more unity under true doctrine in his day--at least in his opinion), I believe it has a much wider application today regarding the established denominations.

Right! The man of lawlessness is the representative personification of the great apostasy that began to emerge (was 'already at work') when Paul was still living. It exploded in popularity immediately after his death ('he who is restraining him now will be out of the way'). The tangible fruit of it was the birth of the church whore 30-40 years later that became famous for its denial of the apostolic teaching (Acts 2:42) on the evangel. Some of its early promotional salesmen were Ignatius, Justin, Clement of A., and Tertullian (before his 'apostasy' from the church whore into nonconformist Montanism--which hated the truth of the evangel as much as the church whore).

[wildboar]

True Biblical unity cannot be over-emphasized. If a person is only concerned about some type of personal advancement in truth and theology and is not concerned for the true unity of the church visibly displayed they are just as much a heretic as the person who wants an artificial form of unity with no substance behind it. Let both be anathema.

[beloved57]

"That man of sin" is a particular person

I believe satan is that man of sin , and he recieves worship via( as the god of) the false gospels ! 2 cor 11:

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[wildboar]

Nero just fits the context so well it seems like a matter of overspiritualization to read anyone or anything else into the context. Paul is speaking of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in verse 1 and it seems unlikely that people were actually thinking that the final judgment had already ocurred. It seems far more likely that people thought that God's judgment described here as Christ's coming had already taken place.

[beloved57]

Nero just fits the context so well it seems like a matter of overspiritualization to read anyone or anything else into the context. Paul is speaking of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in verse 1 and it seems unlikely that people were actually thinking that the final judgment had already ocurred. It seems far more likely that people thought that God's judgment described here as Christ's coming had already taken place.

Nero ? Please... We are speaking about an enity that will have world wide worship !!

[wildboar]

It is certainly not uncommon in Scripture to use the term world to refer to the Roman Empire (Luke 2:1).

Paul uses the term to speak of something less than every individual in the world:

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Paul claimed to have preached the Gospel to every creature:

Colossians 1:23 if indeed, y o u continue in the faith-- and I am sure that y o u will-- established and firm, and not shifting away from the hope held out in the gospel, which y o u heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, have become a minister.

Romans 16:26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith --

Matthew 24:3-14 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 "All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10 "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Nero's name adds up to the numeric equivalent of 666. He was expected to be worshipped by all those in the Roman Empire which was considered the world for many. In Revelation the beast has a mouth like a lion (13:2). When Paul discussed his release from imprisonment under Nero he said that he was deliverd out of the mouth of the lion (2 Tim 4:16). Jay Adams gives no less than 16 reasons for identifying the beast with Nero.

[beloved57]

It is certainly not uncommon in Scripture to use the term world to refer to the Roman Empire (Luke 2:1).

Paul uses the term to speak of something less than every individual in the world:

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Paul claimed to have preached the Gospel to every creature:

Colossians 1:23 if indeed, y o u continue in the faith-- and I am sure that y o u will-- established and firm, and not shifting away from the hope held out in the gospel, which y o u heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, have become a minister.

Romans 16:26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith --

Matthew 24:3-14 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 "All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10 "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Nero's name adds up to the numeric equivalent of 666. He was expected to be worshipped by all those in the Roman Empire which was considered the world for many. In Revelation the beast has a mouth like a lion (13:2). When Paul discussed his release from imprisonment under Nero he said that he was deliverd out of the mouth of the lion (2 Tim 4:16). Jay Adams gives no less than 16 reasons for identifying the beast with Nero.

Well, world in this since refers to evryone on earth !

Rev 13 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

Now, do you truly believe, that there was or will be a time when all on the earth will worship one man ? Please...

[wildboar]

How are you making that determination that world in this context means every single person head for head? "World" is very rarely used in that way in Scripture if at all.

[beloved57]

How are you making that determination that world in this context means every single person head for head? "World" is very rarely used in that way in Scripture if at all.

all that dwell on the earth seems pretty clear to me ! The only exceptions are the elect or those who names are written in the lambs book of life..
rev 13:

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9If any man have an ear, let him hear.

[wildboar]

In this case we don't even have the word kosmos ("world"), we have the word gh which depending upon the context can mean land or earth. It earth-dwellers is a common term found in apocolyptic literature and need not have a completely world-wide scope. It is also interesting to note the time-frame described in this passage. In verse 5 the period of 42 months is mentioned which in fact is the exact amount of time of Nero's persecution of the Christians. It lasted from November 64 to June 68. It is also equivalent to the 1260 days of chapter 11:2-3.

You also run into problems with your interpretation if you read chapter 12 where it is said that Satan is bound for 1000 years. When do you believe this loosing took place? What issues do you see in recent history that show the complete degredation of the church? If you follow Higby's model and see it happening almost immediately after the apostolic era it is hard to think how this rather short period would be described as a thousand years.