the place of Israel

[Dorcas]

Given all of the recent news, I'm wondering what you all think about the place of Israel today, or whether they even have a place? The obvious first question is does the "holy land" still belong to Israel?

I have heard some use Galations 3 to promote the idea that the Abrahamic covenant is still in effect, including the promise of the land of Canaan to Abraham's descendents. To me, it seems like 4:28-31 negates this. I understand that the elect are the spiritual descendents of Abraham, and as such are spiritual heirs to the promise. However, I'm not sure if there are any physical aspects of this covenant still in effect.

As a second part of this question, do you believe that the Bible teaches that the nation of Israel will one day come to Christ? I know many people (some dispensationalist though) that believe something to this effect -- not sure where it came from.

I'd appreciate your 2 cents!

[wildboar]

The Abrahamic covenant is still in effect but in its full fledged form. Galatians 3 is completely opposed to dispensationalist and zionist notions.

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no 'male and female'; for y o u are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if y o u are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Hebrews 11 also tells us that Abraham knew that Canaan was just a shadow of the heavenly country.

Does Scripture teach that after the fullness of the Gentiles have come in that the bulk of national Israel will repent and turn to God? I believe so.

Romans 11:11-28 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

[Dorcas]

The Abrahamic covenant is still in effect but in its full fledged form. Galatians 3 is completely opposed to dispensationalist and zionist notions.

I don't doubt that the Abrahamic covenant is has as many spiritual implications as physical ones, and anyone that reads Galatians 3&4 would be a fool to say otherwise. Paul explains in verse 8 that God was looking toward the faith of the Gentiles at the time the covenant was made with Abraham.

However, this is what bothers me: the statement in 17 is a didactic statement -- Paul obviously wants to be clear and literal in his teaching or he wouldn't make a clarification. He clearly teaches that the promises made to Abraham were not invalidated. The rest of the passage talks about how the faith promise (already explained in 6-9) applies to the Gentiles, but I don't see that as license to say that all of the other promises are only spiritual or only apply to the believers in Christ. We aren't talking about salvation -- Romans 9 makes it very clear that only the elect in faith (in all times) are saved.

Hebrews 11 also tells us that Abraham knew that Canaan was just a shadow of the heavenly country.

I disagree with the word "just" here. Of course Abraham, being one of the elect in faith, was looking toward heaven.

I appreciate the discussion of the Romans 11 passage. Why wouldn't this teaching apply to the other though? The passages teaches that the Gentiles are grafted onto the promises of Israel, but that God intends to reedeem Israel because they are chosen? (this clearly will be through faith in Christ) Why, if God still regards them as some kind of physical people, would they not be entitiled to their physical land under the same promises? Its obvious what the two kinds of branches are, but what is the root?

As usual, I offer more questions than answers...

[Kentucky Kid]

God made a promise to Abraham's seed (national Israel) not Abraham ( Gen 12:7, 15:18 - specific land; 24:7 ). The land was given unconditionally ( Joshua 1:2-4, Deut 9:1, 4-6 ). Duration of the land possession was conditional ( Deut 4:26, 8:18-20, 30:17,18; Joshua 23:13,16 ). Promise of all the land was fulfilled ( Joshua 11:23, 21:43-45; Neh 9:7,8 ). The Jews no longer meet the conditional requirement mentioned above because of their disobedience, so they have no covenant right to the land. God made a promise to God's elect ( spiritual Israel which includes Abraham ): Gen 13:15, 17:8. This promise has been fulfilled ( Rom 4:13 Gal 6:16, Heb 11:8-10, 14-16 ).......KK

[wildboar]

Dorcas:

I never said it invalidated the promises, the promises always applied to something greater than the land of Canaan which was a shadow as the passage in Hebrews makes clear. Those who believe in Christ whether Jew or Gentile are heirs of the promise of Abraham which is described in the book of Genesis.

Genesis 17:2-8 "And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God dtalked with him, saying: 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 "Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

This means that Gentiles are given the promise of covenant succession just as the Jews and in fact the prophecy in the Old Testament suggests that whereas many received the sign under the Old dispensation without receiving the reality, this will be different under the new. We also are given the promise of inheriting the entire earth. Canaan is certainly a very small part of that earth. The promise remains but has grown greater and more inclusive. I'm not spiritualizing it in any way.

[EnglishRose]

dear Kentucky Kid, I know your mail was back in Feb. but just read it again, and it sets out so clearly and simply and scripturally the overall truth. Thank you. Love English Rose

God made a promise to Abraham's seed (national Israel) not Abraham ( Gen 12:7, 15:18 - specific land; 24:7 ). The land was given unconditionally ( Joshua 1:2-4, Deut 9:1, 4-6 ). Duration of the land possession was conditional ( Deut 4:26, 8:18-20, 30:17,18; Joshua 23:13,16 ). Promise of all the land was fulfilled ( Joshua 11:23, 21:43-45; Neh 9:7,8 ). The Jews no longer meet the conditional requirement mentioned above because of their disobedience, so they have no covenant right to the land. God made a promise to God's elect ( spiritual Israel which includes Abraham ): Gen 13:15, 17:8. This promise has been fulfilled ( Rom 4:13 Gal 6:16, Heb 11:8-10, 14-16 ).......KK

[beloved57]

dear Kentucky Kid, I know your mail was back in Feb. but just read it again, and it sets out so clearly and simply and scripturally the overall truth. Thank you. Love English Rose

Yes indeed, kk seems to hit the nail on the head....

[Robert R. Higby]

I personally believe that the 1948 British creation of the nation of Israel has nothing to do with with the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. I support the continued existence of the nation of Israel, not in ANY way because of Bible interpretation (which clearly states that Israel according to the flesh is dead and gone), but strictly because it is a 'partial' (VERY partial) democratic government--which is more approved by God from a temporal earthly standpoint than the Islamic fascism of its neighbors. Almost all of the nation of Israel is still hell-bound as related to the gospel of Christ-- and this situation will never change in this world--except for those who divorce the religion of Talmudic Judaism--which is the norm of those who want any part of government authority in Israel.

Christ is clear that earthly Judaism is finished. It is NEVER to have a resurrection. As far as the physical seed of Abraham is concerned, ANY of us might be his seed--certainly no one can prove otherwise today!

[Mike_The_Man]

I would strongly suggest heading over to http://www.salvationbygrace.org/ and taking a look at the article "Is the Church Israel" and also hearing the audio files of the same title. Jim McClarty makes a very detailed account as to when God is speaking of Israel, He means Israel. I remain dispensationalist in my view of His dealings with the nation and people of Israel. God Bless,

Michael

[jmgipson]

I would strongly suggest heading over to http://www.salvationbygrace.org/ and taking a look at the article "Is the Church Israel" and also hearing the audio files of the same title. Jim McClarty makes a very detailed account as to when God is speaking of Israel, He means Israel. I remain dispensationalist in my view of His dealings with the nation and people of Israel. God Bless,

Michael

Mike,
I don't think anyone is part of replacement theology (at least myself) on this forum. I will speak for myself in my understanding of this:

The church has been around since Genesis. In the Old Testament, the church was made up of only the true Israel out of the nation. There were very few gentiles during this time. Then after the death of Christ, the gentiles were brought into the church along with the remenant of Israel. The true Israel has never been replaced by the church. It is the church. Will there be a time when the fullness of the gentiles are brought in that more Jews will then become part of the church? I don't know. I am not sure which view I hold on this.

John

[jmgipson]

I would strongly suggest heading over to http://www.salvationbygrace.org/ and taking a look at the article "Is the Church Israel" and also hearing the audio files of the same title. Jim McClarty makes a very detailed account as to when God is speaking of Israel, He means Israel. I remain dispensationalist in my view of His dealings with the nation and people of Israel. God Bless,

Michael

It is Dispensationalist whom the burden of proof lays on to show this so called pause (stop in God's prophecy clock) in eschatology until the rapture or whatever the case. And then once again take up the Jewish nation. There has always been one people of God since creation.

[Robert R. Higby]

Paul's teaching in Romans is strictly that ISRAEL IS ONE, it is comprised of all physical descendants of Abraham who believe and all of the Gentiles who believe. That is it. The New Testament knows no other Israel!

[wildboar]

To be a dispensationalist is to deny that the inspired writers of the New Testament such as Paul understood Old Testament prophecy. They were constantly applying promises given to Israel in the Old Testament to the New Testament church.

The very use of the term "replacement theology" shows that the person writing doesn't know what they are talking about when they speak about other schools of eschatology.

Mathison provides an excellent, brief critique of dispensationalism:

Is the Church the True Israel God?
By Keith Mathison, author of Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God?, Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope, and The Shape of Sola Scriptura.
Many people believe that the defining doctrinal characteristic of dispensationalism is its unique eschatology. It is certainly the eschatology that gains the most attention. In reality, however, the doctrine that defines dispensationalism, its sine qua non, is its doctrine of the church. The fundamental tenet of dispensationalism is that the Church is not Israel. Several things are meant by this statement, but the most important is the dispensationalist teaching that the church, or body of Christ, consists only of those believers saved between Pentecost and the Rapture. The saints of the Old Testament are not part of the Church, the body of Christ.
Part of the difficulty in evaluating the dispensational distinction between Israel and the Church is the lack of precise definitions in dispensationalist literature. Both "Israel" and "Church" are used in a variety of senses throughout the New Testament, and to simply say that the Church is not Israel is a gross oversimplification. Obviously, if we mean by "Israel" the political state of Israel or unbelieving Jews, then the Church is not Israel. But since within the unbelieving nation of Israel there has always been a remnant, a "true Israel" it is not accurate to make a sweeping general statement divorcing Israel from the Church in every sense of the words.
In the Old Testament, the unbelieving nation had a remnant of believers within it. This true Israel, which included such men as David and Daniel, were those who were circumcised not only in the flesh but also in the spirit. When Christ came, we see the same distinction between national, unbelieving Israel and the true Israel. The Scribes and Pharisees were generally part of the unbelieving national Israel. The apostles were part of true Israel. At Pentecost, when virtually all agree a new stage in redemptive history began, the true Israel, the remnant of national Israel, was the church. In the following decades and centuries, Gentiles began to be added to this true Israel - the church, but that did not change the fact that there was and is a continuity between the Old Testament Israel and the New Testament church. The Church is not national or unbelieving Israel. But the Church is the true Israel, the remnant of national Israel. There are several places in Scripture where this truth is clearly taught. Here we shall focus briefly on three:
Romans 11:11-24 clearly teaches the unity of believers of all ages. The illustration of the olive tree in this passage is one of the better known sections of the book of Romans, but its meaning has not always been clear, especially to those who would separate Old and New Testament believers into distinct bodies. There are four main points in this text of Scripture that are relevant to our topic:
1. The cultivated olive tree is natural Israel.
2. The natural branches that are broken off are unbelieving Jews.
3. The good branches that remain are believing Jews.
4. The wild branches that are grafted into the good olive tree are believing Gentiles.
The most important thing to notice here is that there is only one good olive tree. In the Old Testament it had contained both unbelieving and believing Jews. But when Christ came, the unbelieving Jews were broken off leaving only the believing Jews. Believing Gentiles were then, and are now, grafted into this good olive tree - the believing remnant - the true Israel. Were dispensationalism true, the illustration would make no sense. Paul does not say that God plants a brand new olive tree into which He now grafts believing Jews and believing Gentiles. No, the believing Jews stayed right where they were in their covenant relationship with God. God brought Gentile believers into this already existing covenant relationship. The believing remnant of Israel, the true Israel, and the New Testament Church are one and the same body of believers. These believing Jews and Gentiles are the one good olive tree.
Ephesians 2:11-19 is a passage of Scripture that also has special importance for our study. In this text, Paul compares the former state of the Gentiles in Christ to their previous state apart from Christ. In verse 12, Paul lists five things that were true of them before they became Christians. The Gentile believers were formerly:
1. Separate from Christ
2. Excluded from the commonwealth of Israel
3. Strangers to the covenants of promise
4. Without hope
5. Without God in the world
All five of these things are spoken of in the past tense. In other words, all five were true of the Gentiles prior to their faith in Christ, and all five are no longer true now that the Gentiles have faith in Christ. What this means is that Gentile believers are now:
1. In Christ
2. Included in the commonwealth of Israel
3. Heirs of the covenants of promise
4. With Hope
5. With God in the world
According to Paul, all of these things are now true for Gentile believers in Christ.
Galatians 3:16, 29 emphasizes Gentiles' inheritance in the Abrahamic promises. We learn in
these verses that:
1. The Abrahamic promises were made to Abraham and to his seed (v. 16).
2. His Seed is Christ (v. 16).
3. His seed is also all who belong to Christ (v.29).
4. Therefore, the Abrahamic promises belong to Christ and to all who are His (v.29).
According to Paul, the Abrahamic promises belong to all who are in Christ and only to those in Christ. Since He is the true heir, the true Seed, no one may inherit the promises apart from Christ. Apart from union with Christ, no Jew or Gentile has any claim to the Abrahamic promises.
The dispensationalist distinction between two peoples of God is biblically indefensible. All who are saved are in Christ, and only those who are in Christ are saved. There is no other way of salvation apart from union with Christ in the one body of Christ, the church - the true Israel of God.

Another issue that dispensationalists have to grapple with is why is it that if their teaching is as clear as they say it is, why didn't anyone teach it prior to the 19th century and why did it take until the 20th century to really gain any momentum? How is it that nobody knew how to interpret Bible prophecy before that time?

The fact is that the dispensationalist for all his claims does not take the Bible literally. It does not read the passages in their context to determine what type of language is being used. Instead, they interpret some prophetic passages in a very wooden literalistic way and then read those interpretations into clearer passages and end up having to mutilate the clearer passages to fit their model.

[lionovjudah]

When we say the churhc is Israel, and receives all the promises, what are the curses left out?

I have always struggled with this question

Israel was all about blessings and curses. What happened to all the curses and why does the church only receive the blessings?

[wildboar]

Joe:

Because that would mean that we would have to read Romans 13 which is almost as mean as making an Arminian read Romans 9.

I have an mp3 player that I take to work with me. I have some Gregorian chant, Hebrew chant, metrical Psalm singing, Derek Webb, and Bob Dylan on it. I also keep one book of the Bible on it and set it to shuffle. For some reason one day I happened to have the book of Leviticus on there and out of everything I had on that mp3 player it kept going back to Leviticus 26. It's just an incredible chapter.

Leviticus 26:1-46 'You shall not make idols for yourselves; neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God. 2 You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD. 3 ' If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them, 4 then I will give you rain in its season, the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. 5 Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing; you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely. 6 I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none will make you afraid; I will rid the land of evil beasts, and the sword will not go through your land. 7 You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. 8 Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. 9 ' For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. 10 You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new. 11 I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you. 12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people. 13 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that you should not be their slaves; I have broken the bands of your yoke and made you walk upright. 14 ' But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, 16 I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies. Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you. 18 ' And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. 19 I will break the pride of your power; I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. 20 And your strength shall be spent in vain; for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit. 21 ' Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins. 22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number; and your highways shall be desolate. 23 ' And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me, 24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins. 25 And I will bring a sword against you that will execute the vengeance of the covenant; when you are gathered together within your cities I will send pestilence among you; and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. 26 When I have cut off your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall bring back your bread by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied. 27 ' And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, 28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you. 31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas. 32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it. 33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste. 34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 As long as it lies desolate it shall rest -- for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it. 36 ' And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee; they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues. 37 They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues; and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies. 38 You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. 39 And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; also in their fathers' iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away. 40 ' But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt -- 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land. 43 The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them; they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.' " 46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the LORD made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

[lionovjudah]

Joe:

Because that would mean that we would have to read Romans 13 which is almost as mean as making an Arminian read Romans 9.

I have an mp3 player that I take to work with me. I have some Gregorian chant, Hebrew chant, metrical Psalm singing, Derek Webb, and Bob Dylan on it. I also keep one book of the Bible on it and set it to shuffle. For some reason one day I happened to have the book of Leviticus on there and out of everything I had on that mp3 player it kept going back to Leviticus 26. It's just an incredible chapter.

Leviticus 26:1-46 'You shall not make idols for yourselves; neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God. 2 You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD. 3 ' If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them, 4 then I will give you rain in its season, the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. 5 Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing; you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely. 6 I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none will make you afraid; I will rid the land of evil beasts, and the sword will not go through your land. 7 You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. 8 Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. 9 ' For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. 10 You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new. 11 I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you. 12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people. 13 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that you should not be their slaves; I have broken the bands of your yoke and made you walk upright. 14 ' But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, 16 I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies. Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you. 18 ' And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. 19 I will break the pride of your power; I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. 20 And your strength shall be spent in vain; for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit. 21 ' Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins. 22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number; and your highways shall be desolate. 23 ' And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me, 24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins. 25 And I will bring a sword against you that will execute the vengeance of the covenant; when you are gathered together within your cities I will send pestilence among you; and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. 26 When I have cut off your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall bring back your bread by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied. 27 ' And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, 28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you. 31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas. 32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it. 33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste. 34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 As long as it lies desolate it shall rest -- for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it. 36 ' And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee; they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues. 37 They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues; and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies. 38 You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. 39 And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; also in their fathers' iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away. 40 ' But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt -- 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land. 43 The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them; they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.' " 46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the LORD made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Chuck, I dont understand!!!! Are you being sarastic? Are you saying that the Church actually receives the curses and not only the blessings?

[Mike_The_Man]

Again I say, when the scriptures say Israel from cover to cover, God means Israel the people and the land. We are Gentiles. We will always be Gentiles.

[lionovjudah]

Again I say, when the scriptures say Israel from cover to cover, God means Israel the people and the land. We are Gentiles. We will always be Gentiles.

Is this an exception then?

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.

Paul says differently.

[Brandan Kraft]

Is this an exception then?

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.

Paul says differently.

Exactly Joe. Dispensationalism is easily refuted as you have done so elegantly.

[GraceAmbassador]

Again I say, when the scriptures say Israel from cover to cover, God means Israel the people and the land. We are Gentiles. We will always be Gentiles.

Hey Mike, why don't you come out of the closet and just admit:

"I AM GOY"!

Milt