According to eph 2:
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
When are the elect made alive ?
According to eph 2:
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
When are the elect made alive ?
Last edited by beloved57; 08-27-2006 at 09:36 AM.
The elect are made alive at regeneration and conversion. Regeneration is the Holy Spirit coming in the new birth and conversion is our belief of the only true gospel as a result of regeneration ( Ezekiel 36:24-28; John 16:7-11; II Thessalonians 2:13,14; Titus 3:5-7 ).......KK
Hi KK , I'm glad you joined and I like your answer and I use to believe that as well, that we were quickened at the newbirth, but look closely at eph 2:5 & 6Originally Posted by Kentucky Kid
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
I would like to propose, that we were quickened via our union with christ(our federal head), when he was quickened or raised from the dead...
col 2:12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
The key I believe kk is the word together !
The Holy spirit reveals this blessed truth to the spiritually raised elect sinner in the gospel. May I use an illustation. A new born baby is brought into the world not cognizance of its surrondings , but when the new born is slapped on the rump, it begins to experience its new life. The same, the elect sinner having been regenerated by the death, burial and resurrection of christ, is made aware of the blessed Good news( the slap on the rump of the gospel) (having been reconciled by the death of christ 2 cor 5 and justified by his resurrection as in rom 4: 25)
Last edited by beloved57; 08-27-2006 at 01:03 PM.
Actually this is correctly (as you say beloved) speaking not of the new birth, but resurection. We died with Him, we were raised (quickened) with Him, and we were seated in the heavens with Him. So your union is correct. I don't see where KK used this verse though.Hi KK , I'm glad you joined and I like your answer and I use to believe that as well, that we were quickened at the newbirth, but look closely at eph 2:5 & 6
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
I would like to propose, that we were quickened via our union with christ(our federal head), when he was quickened or raised from the dead...
col 2:12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
The key I believe kk is the word together !
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
The new birth also is a raising from the dead. We are brought back from death to life. The only reason the Eph. verse is different is because it relates the raising with Christ. When the scripture speaks of us being dead in sin, and then being quickened, it is the new birth.
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
gip says :
[quote]I don't see where KK used this verse though.{/quote]
I used the verse to premise the thread. Well what I am getting at is regeneration is always used as a noun in scripture and never as a verb(I am indebted to this thought by God through elder poole) Regeneration can only apply to the new altered state occupied by the risen Christ. After having abolished, washed, cleansed, purged us from our sins he sat down next to majesty on High. Matt 28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
I believe that occured at the resurrection and acension. Heb 1: 3
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
acts 2
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
I just had a quick question to go with your illustration, is the baby alive in the womb??
Sounds like at John 3 thing illustration, maybe??
Sure, a baby is alive in the womb whether the baby knows it or not. I can vividly remember things I did and my surrondings as a very small child, but i have no recollection of my surrondings when I was in my mothers womb.
Just another question about the illustration, lets say the child grows to be 3 now. One day a door is left open by accident (on the parents part) and the child gets out, somehow gets down the street and over into the next subdivision.......and some other parents happened to find the child.....should the child be able to give his/her parents names, phone # and an addr? Would this be typical or the exception if the child did this very thing?
Bro Darryl I rejoice with you in the truth that when Christ died, all the elect died; when He arose- all the elect rose; and as He is seated in the heavenlies- so all are the elect. But I also believe that we were not born with this knowledge- God must reveal this to us ( John 6:45 ). So as the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is our regeneration and conversion; I also believe the new birth and belief of the only true gospel is also a regeneration and conversion...........KK
Lets not lose sight of the child being a child of the kingdom , so his/her divine heaveny father is in control, like in jude
1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
The child of the kingdom was always preserved by the special providence of God even before being awaken. Hebrews also hits on this
heb 1 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Brother Kk , you are absolutely correct, we are not born with this knowledge, it is revealed(made known) to us by the holy spirit ! Now, The death burial , and resurrection is not our conversion , but our regeneration, a little difference. Only those who have been regenerated via the dbr of christ will be converted, in other words our regeneration provides the the basis for our conversion when the gospel is preached to us with power.
acts 3 19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
look at who peter was directing this sermon too vs 25
25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
So the child of the kingdom responds in faith to the gospel of the kingdom. The king of the kingdom summons its citizens to partake of the heavenly calling as in hebrews 3: 1
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Ephesians 2:1-9 And when y o u were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which y o u once walked according to the age of this world, in accordance with the ruler of the realm of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were children of wrath by nature, like the rest; 4 but God, being rich in mercy, on account of His great love with which He loved us, 5 and when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace y o u have been saved), 6 that is, He raised us with Him, and made us sit with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace y o u have been saved through the faith, and this not from y o urselves; the gift is God's, 9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
In the larger context the passage is speaking of the person who was once dead in sin but then made alive. At this time they became united with the resurrection life of Christ through faith but it would seem to ignore everything else that is said here to say that all of this ocurred in time at the time of the resurrection of Christ. The passage is alluding to the resurrection but speaking directly to the time in the person's life who was dead in sin but God made them alive.
Colossians 2:11-12 In Him y o u were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in the baptism, in Him y o u were also raised with Him through faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.
The result of the new birth in this instance is the putting off of the sins of the flesh. In verse 12, it says that the basis for this is found in the death and resurrection of Christ our federal head. But the actual timing of this is within our own lifetimes as verse 11 makes clear.
It really depends on what you mean by the term "regeneration." In systematic theology regeneration has reference to the passages which speak of being born again/from above, quickening, etc. and not to passages like Matt. 19:28. You'll notice a similar thing happening with terms like reprobation where it never means in Bible translations what it means in systematic theology. This has to do with how words are defined by different people for different purposes and in some cases changes in meaning over time.Well what I am getting at is regeneration is always used as a noun in scripture and never as a verb(I am indebted to this thought by God through elder poole) Regeneration can only apply to the new altered state occupied by the risen Christ. After having abolished, washed, cleansed, purged us from our sins he sat down next to majesty on High. Matt 28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
I believe that occured at the resurrection and acension. Heb 1: 3
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
The Greek word in Matthew 19:28 is paliggenesia and is only found two places in the Bible. The other place is Titus 3:5.
The primary meaning, and the meaning in Matthew 19:28 is:
state of being renewed, w. focus on a cosmic experience, renewal
It could even be translated as something like "the restored universe." The renewal that is being spoken of here began at the time of Pentecost but will continue until the entire universe is renewed. It is not speaking of individual renewal but of cosmic renewal. Titus 3:5 is speaking of individual renewal but regardless of whether a person believes it is referring to water baptism or spiritual baptism it pretty clearly is ocurring at a time other than the resurrection within the life of the person.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
WB I've noticed that at times your spelling of the word you is spaced i.e. "y o u" what does this signify? Are you conveying something special by this?
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I use it my translation when there is a second person plural. William Hendriksen does this in his commentaries as well. The KJV uses thee/thou for the singular and you/ye for the plural but there is no way in modern English to differentiate between the two unless you use you all everywhere and then you would end up with some passages saying you all all.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Yeah, I hadnt lost sight of that particular fact Daryll, the kid could have gotten to the other side of the planet for that matter and still would not change his/her status as a child of the parents. I also understand that what is wrought out in time has already been decided in eternity, so anyway, back to the question........what do ya think??
wb, this concept I am introducing is some what new to me but I do believe it has merit based upon some positional truths and the elect having a union with christ in the days of his flesh. Some of scriptures that seem to be elucidated are 2 cor 5:17In the larger context the passage is speaking of the person who was once dead in sin but then made alive. At this time they became united with the resurrection life of Christ through faith but it would seem to ignore everything else that is said here to say that all of this ocurred in time at the time of the resurrection of Christ. The passage is alluding to the resurrection but speaking directly to the time in the person's life who was dead in sin but God made them alive.
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
When did this new creation take place ? I don't think it was at the time of faith ! Faith is not causative but instrumental ! It is that God given capacity to know the things that have been freely given to us by God, and to take God at his word. I believe the New Creation here spoken of is a result of the DBR of christ on behalf of his people. Our state / position has been altered by the merits of christ on our behalf. The elect before faith by reason of DBR have been reconciled to God..
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Also romans 3 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Rom 4 : 25
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
These are blessings , reconciliation , justification, New Creation, Redemption, all these blessings are established facts by virtue of the DBR of christ and prior to them being revealed to us through Faith in time. These are true by our union with him in his DBR, faith had nothing to do with the reality of these blessings.
Thats why paul as well as any elect person can say gal 1
15But when God, who set me apart from birth[a] and called me by his grace, was pleased 16to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those
Paul and anyother elect person has been sanctified from the womb ( and I believe this to be different from the children of believers in 1cor 7) for this sanctification has salvation in view. The same thing for Jeremiah 1
4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew [a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
Now faith is not the cause of these things but the result , for the child of the kingdom.
So , by virtue of the DBR we are regenerated, we are put in a New alterd state , though the practicality of this is yet to be experienced..
A good article that prompted this discussion , I first said elder poole, but it was robert lackey:
http://www.asweetsavor.150m.com/erl/regeneration.html
Christ certainly stood as the federal head in bringing suffering for the sins of his people but you shouldn't minimize all the other aspects of our salvation at the expense of the salvation that we see on the cross. Read what the passage you posted says as well as the other passages cited. It is referring to a previous time in which we saw things from a worldly point of view and viewed people and Christ from a worldly perspective. We no longer do so because we are a new creation. It wouldn't really make sense to say that there is some sort of change in us if it is only referring to what happened almost 2000 years ago. The new creation is something that God makes us in time and is not of ourselves. Our faith is a result and not the cause of our faith and faith is not the cause but the instrument by which we lay hold of our salvation. But that doesn't mean it should be minimized. It is certainly true that we were objectively justified on the cross but the emphasis of the Bible is on our subjective justification.wb, this concept I am introducing is some what new to me but I do believe it has merit based upon some positional truths and the elect having a union with christ in the days of his flesh. Some of scriptures that seem to be elucidated are 2 cor 5:17
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
When did this new creation take place ? I don't think it was at the time of faith ! Faith is not causative but instrumental ! It is that God given capacity to know the things that have been freely given to us by God, and to take God at his word.
The article fails to grapple with the fact that the Bible wasn't written in English and so the terms we use have to have a commonly accepted definition. By the article's logic we certainly could never use a term like Trinity. We could certainly never use a term like unregenerate or Arminian.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Minimize, where do you see that ? How is salvation being minimized, if anything its being amplified ! You have failed to address the scriptures I provided as to there being objective blessings strictly because of the DBR of christ for his people.but you shouldn't minimize all the other aspects of our salvation
In your opinion, when did the elect become a new creation ? Was it before or after faith ?It is referring to a previous time in which we saw things from a worldly point of view and viewed people and Christ from a worldly perspective. We no longer do so because we are a new creation
Straw man argument....The article fails to grapple with the fact that the Bible wasn't written in English and so the terms we use have to have a commonly accepted definition. By the article's logic we certainly could never use a term like Trinity. We could certainly never use a term like unregenerate or Arminian
Wow, this is the whole premise, none of the blessings renumerated are addressing subjective change ! They are drawing attention away from ourselves to Christ and his cross (DBR). There is an emphasis on what Happended positionally to the elect of God and the new relationship that God has formed because of the Redemtive blood of christ ! All the elect Now, even though some may at this present time be a practising witchcraft have been reconciled To God...You have to take your focus off of the subjective to see what is being espoused here..It wouldn't really make sense to say that there is some sort of change in us if it is only referring to what happened almost 2000 years ago.
The emphasis of the bible is both , and each in its proper order ! When the bible declares that noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, it had nothing to do with subjectiveness but a sovereign declaration based soley on Gods perogative...But that doesn't mean it should be minimized. It is certainly true that we were objectively justified on the cross but the emphasis of the Bible is on our subjective justification
By the way faith is important, This is the instrumental cause we lay hold of and come into the realization of our blessed state as in rom 5: 1. When God revealed himself to the idolatrize abram back in the day, it was not because of anything in abram ( he was a practising heathen) it was because of the relationship abram had with God based upon the redemtive love he had in christ ! Abraham was beginning to come into the realization of these things..
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