Are God's elect ever under the wrath of God? I say no ( II Timothy 1:9 ). What say ye?.....thanks........KK
Are God's elect ever under the wrath of God? I say no ( II Timothy 1:9 ). What say ye?.....thanks........KK
KK. MAny times discussed here. there must be at least 20 threads.Originally Posted by Kentucky Kid
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.GALATIANS 5:22
Sorry Lion and to the forum. This thread may be closed and I will seek it out......KK
No need to apologize, but I seriously would say there is at least a few hundred posts on the subject here.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.GALATIANS 5:22
Good question though kk, to add to that if they don't shut it down. Was christ ever under the wrath of God ? If so, were we in union with him ?
Response to Darryl in post #5: Bro, I believe that Christ was under the wrath of God on the cross- for the sheep's sins. Were we in union with him under this wrath? If we were, we then contributed in taking away our sins which of course is not true. So I believe we are in union with Him from eternity, but Christ endured the wrath of God alone: In Isaiah 53:11 and 12 the Word speaks of Christ and no one else: being bruised, griefing, made in His soul an offering for sin, He saw His seed, had travail of His soul, justified many, bore their iniquities. In Hebrews 9:12 we are told that Christ obtained eternal redemption for us. If the elect was part of any of this, then that refutes the dialog you and Lion had about salvation being 100 per cent of God. Christ was under the wrath of God on the cross as our representative and surety-alone. Our sins were imputed to Him, He finished the transgression and made and end to sin by bearing the wrath of God due us. We then have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us because of what He did. Some would not agree, and believe we were under God's wrath in: 1) Adam 2) Christ on the cross, or both. This is why I posted because I believe neither; but wanted input because it is so awesome to consider our wonderful Savior..........KK
Last edited by Kentucky Kid; 09-01-2006 at 06:20 PM.
Brother K, I`m speechless ! For real, I don't believe the elect ever experienced the wrath of God, you can check my profile. I only brought up that point because of the very real union I believe we had with the saviour in his death, burial, and resurrection. I mean true, he was alone in his death, he was alone in his burial, and of course he was alone in his resurrection in a very real sense. Let make it clear, I don`t believe that we as the elect had anything to do with paying the penal aspect of the subtitutionary death of christ, it was all Christ.
The doctrine of the eternal and dynamic union of the elect with Christ absolutely condemns any teaching that the elect are under the wrath of God in time. I don't care who doesn't like this proposition (obviously, some who are posting here).
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
The sons of Korah didn't seem to like this proposition either:
Psalm 88:14-16 LORD, why do You cast off my soul? Why do You hide Your face from me? 15 I have been afflicted and ready to die from my youth; I suffer Your terrors; I am distraught. 16 Your fierce wrath has gone over me; Your terrors have cut me off.
Neither does Asaph:
Psalm 80:4 O LORD God of hosts, How long will You be angry Against the prayer of Your people?
And we learn that God became angry with Solomon:
1 Kings 11:9 So the LORD became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the LORD God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice,
and Moses:
Deuteronomy 4:21 "Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and swore that I would not cross over the Jordan, and that I would not enter the good land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.
Can the anger of God be temporary? God seems to think so:
Jeremiah 3:12-13 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say: 'Return, backsliding Israel,' says the LORD; 'I will not cause My anger to fall on you. For I am merciful,' says the LORD; 'I will not remain angry forever. 13 Only acknowledge your iniquity, That you have transgressed against the LORD your God, And have scattered your charms To alien deities under every green tree, And you have not obeyed My voice,' says the LORD.
Were we once under the wrath of God:
Ephesians 5:6-10 Let no one deceive y o u with empty words, for on account of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For y o u were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 discerning what is pleasing to the Lord.
God's wrath is completely compatible with his love. Earthly fathers often get angry with their children because they love them and want what is best for them. Discipline is a display of anger but it is also a display of love. Hatred and love our incompatible but wrath and love are not.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Beloved 57 - bro don't be speechless! I wasn't implying you weren't "orthodox"; I was just defending my view with your talking points. WB- thanks for your input- but time for work........KK
Last edited by Kentucky Kid; 09-02-2006 at 04:04 AM.
And Isaiah:
Is.12:1 You will say in that day:
"I will give thanks to you, O LORD,
for though you were angry with me,
your anger turned away,
that you might comfort me.
2 "Behold, God is my salvation;
I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for the LORD GOD[b] is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation." ESV
An St. Paul again:
Eph. 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us..... ESV
God's wrath toward all of humanity magnifies the glory of God that He is willing to turn wrath away from people in Christ.
Hi Wild! How have you been?
Glory to God in the Highest and peace to His people on earth. †
Arrogance cannot be avoided or true hope be present unless the judgment of condemnation is feared in every work. Martin Luther's Heidelberg Disputation, May 1518
There is no evidence in scripture that The elect were ever under the penal wrath of God, that wrath that the non elect are under and secures their eternal damnation, having never been loved by God, but eternally hated!
Darryl:
There is no evidence in scripture that The elect were ever under the penal wrath of God, that wrath that the non elect are under and secures their eternal damnation, having never been loved by God, but eternally hated!
Exactly! This is what we have confessed many times over and over; yet some want to go back and debate Eph. 2:3 all over again. For the thousandth time, not every use of 'wrath' (anger, rage) in scripture refers to God's hell-wrath or eternally damning wrath. THAT is what we have always stated that the elect are never subject to in God's mind or disposition. OF COURSE the Bible teaches a temporal anger of God toward the wickedness of the elect. And the same Hebrew and Greek words are used to refer to BOTH the temporal and eternal wrath of God. No doctrine should ever be based on a notion that a biblical word has a singular meaning--there are both ranges of meaning and compound meanings.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Of a truth, we have always and forever been objects of Gods eternal love: jn 17
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Hey Square
I was just thinking about you recently. I still have a little Lutheran in me and have been attending a LCMS and WELS church off and on for midweek services. I hope all is well with you and your family.
Peace be with you.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Robert Higby and whoever else:
Since wrath is used to describe God's disposition towards both the elect and the reprobate, wouldn't it be more Biblical and more clear to cease this continual arguing over whether or not God's wrath is ever placed upon the elect since it clearly is in some sense? Wouldn't it be better to just argue that God never hates the elect? Otherwise it becomes necessary to create a whole bunch of unbiblical catagories.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Does wrath signify hatred or dislike? Scripture speaks continuously of Christ suffering for us, but it never speaks of Him being punished for us. I know there is a crossover between the Gov theory and the penal theory here, and perhaps it is semantics. I dont agree in the Gov theory that states if Christ was punished, there could be no forgivemeness, that makes no sense. But I dont know about the penal theory either that staes he was punished.
Paul states God was in Christ reconciling the world. And I cannot imagine at the most important time in history, the cross of Christ, that the Father poured His wrath of hatred on His beloved Son. There was a forsakenness, which I am not sure of exactly, but could this equal wrath?
Suffered is the constant word in the writ. Punishment carries the connotation of hatred towards the person. If sinful man does not receive punishement, the hatred of God's wrath, but the chastisement of God's love, how can Christ have?
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.GALATIANS 5:22
Lion & WB: the wrath I was implying to start this thread is defined by B-57 in post #12........KK
Last edited by Kentucky Kid; 09-04-2006 at 10:36 AM.
Then Darryl asked the question about Christ being under His wrath. Thats what I was commenting on. The Darryl states:
There is no evidence in scripture that The elect were ever under the penal wrath of God, that wrath that the non elect are under and secures their eternal damnation, having never been loved by God, but eternally hated!
The you (KK) stated Christ was under this penal wrath. I am prematurely disagreeing becasue of my last post. If one states the elect were never under this, how could Christ, of whom the Father is well pleased with be under it?
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.GALATIANS 5:22
Good point, God never hated the son at anytime ! Ihave been thinking about this term:
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
This is just a question, But is it saying that His sufferings is some sort of chastisement He endured ?
Also does this have any corollation to Him being a Son ? As in Heb 12:
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks