Heretical Church Fathers

[lionovjudah]

Originally Posted by lionovjudah
This topic is much wider than you make it BK. One that myriads of words have been written, but I have yet to find any with the sentiment that either side is antichrist. And it insults me. Therefore I am yellow carding you for your above post. 'yellow card' which will expire in 1 week.
LOL!


this was kind of funny hah? LOL My response will be shortly BK

I also thought the jab of 66 books vs your 62 books was funny too.

[lionovjudah]

Ummm - what about Adam? Who made Adam that way? Who made Adam with the proclivity to sin? In your profile you state that you believe God wanted to Adam to fall into sin. Therefore Adam WAS MADE to fall into sin. You cannot deny this. God made Adam this way. And He made all of the elect just like He did Adam. Oh, and I don't see how this affects Total Depravity. I believe all of the elect are fashioned in iniquity (just like Adam) because it is God who creates men - not because it is inherited. Traducianism is simply an attempt to absolve God as the creator of evil and sin and deny His sovereign rule over everything.

Then perhaps I should change my profile!!! I am just asking where is the scriptural proof that even hints at this. There are scriptures that speak of mankind being exceedingly good, in His likeness and image, upright. But I cannot find one that hints God made Adam sinfull. In fact, the fall becomes meaningless to you also. There had to be something good in the beginning that was then lost, then restored. There can be no restoration to something that never existed!!!! The scriptures a re clear, after the fall, then men were made in the image of adam and not God. Genesis 5:3 shows this.


Like I mentioned earler, this subject is a tremendous study. I am the farthest from an expert. Also, I believe one can hold to creationism, without professing that God creates men in a fallen state.

meeting to go to. More later.

[Brandan Kraft]

Then perhaps I should change my profile!!! I am just asking where is the scriptural proof that even hints at this. There are scriptures that speak of mankind being exceedingly good, in His likeness and image, upright. But I cannot find one that hints God made Adam sinfull. In fact, the fall becomes meaningless to you also. There had to be something good in the beginning that was then lost, then restored. There can be no restoration to something that never existed!!!! The scriptures a re clear, after the fall, then men were made in the image of adam and not God. Genesis 5:3 shows this.


Like I mentioned earler, this subject is a tremendous study. I am the farthest from an expert. Also, I believe one can hold to creationism, without professing that God creates men in a fallen state.

meeting to go to. More later.

Adam was made to sin. Period. How do I know this? Because Adam sinned. And since God always gets what He wants, we can conclude that whatever happened is what God wanted. He is after all, the determiner of all things.

As for the eschatological notion that things will be restored to things the way they were before Adam's plunge into sin, I do not believe that will happen. There is nothing before Adam's fall that is desirous for me. Adam did not fellowship with Christ - had no knowledge of his need for an alien righteousness. He was blind to his depraved heart. His fall into sin was not a change for Adam in character - it was a revealing to Adam of what he already was. God revealed to Adam that he was naked and needed a covering - He needed Christ.

The new heavans and new earth will not at all be a restoration of Eden! It will be much better

BTW, you can read about our (the facilitators) understanding of Adam pre and post fall in the modified covenant theology article on 5solas.org.

[Saint Nicholas]

Brandan........This is a good topic and I think you should start a thread on this. I firmly believe that most of the so-called church of today, have totaly misrepresented the purpose of EDEN. Let me explain. First of all, when they talk about Adam, they will say that Adam possesed An Ability to sin, and also an Ability not to sin. Now this part of it is honest. They would have to say this because Adam DID IN FACT SIN, and thus acted upon his ability. However in an attempt to protect GOD from being the "Author of Sin", they jump to the conclusion that Adam did not possess inherently a DESIRE TO SIN. Why? because God would be some kind of monster to give man a desire to sin, thus denying any Impulse (latere)to sin in God's creation of Adam. They also claim that the Serpent created this desire in Adam purely from external temptation. Well, if Adam was created without some form of inherent desire to sin, Adam would have been impeccable and could not sin. Adam indeed was created with a desire to sin. The temptation by the serpent was the means God used to show Adam his need for a Righteousnes. And that Righteousness is through Christ the only Impeccable God-Man.

Nicholas

[MCoving]

Adam was made to sin. Period. How do I know this? Because Adam sinned. And since God always gets what He wants, we can conclude that whatever happened is what God wanted. He is after all, the determiner of all things.

As for the eschatological notion that things will be restored to things the way they were before Adam's plunge into sin, I do not believe that will happen. There is nothing before Adam's fall that is desirous for me. Adam did not fellowship with Christ - had no knowledge of his need for an alien righteousness. He was blind to his depraved heart. His fall into sin was not a change for Adam in character - it was a revealing to Adam of what he already was. God revealed to Adam that he was naked and needed a covering - He needed Christ.

The new heavans and new earth will not at all be a restoration of Eden! It will be much better

BTW, you can read about our (the facilitators) understanding of Adam pre and post fall in the modified covenant theology article on 5solas.org.

You know the whole idea of Adam and the fall, if Adam was created sinful or not can be explained in simple turns. Check this out.. God is God right? There's no other God but Him right? God cannot sin it is not in His nature. Therefore, God wouldn't have made man God, where man couldn't sin. So if Adam was not another God, then he must have been made to sin, He wasn't perfect exactly like God.

Man is made with the nature, ability to sin just 'cause Adam didn't at first doesn't mean anything. God is God because He doesn't sin there is no nature in Him to sin. Thus if a creature sins it is because God made that creature have a sinful nature. If something (obviously God) doesn't sin it is because there is no sinful nature. For sin can only come from a sinful nature and holiness only comes from a holy nature. Thus, Adam wasn't fully holy when created otherwise he would never have sinned. We must come to logical conclusions then that Adam was made with a sinful nature not a holy nature because sin came from him.

And it is still true that sin entered the world through one man... how else would sin enter the world? Through God or animals? Come on.. or maybe sin entered through plants yeah thats it.. lol. That verse has nothing to do with Adam being without a sinful nature from birth and then all of a sudden having a sinful nature. If God made Adam holy in nature it means he wouldn't have ever sinned just like God. But since he did sin we know Adam was not made holy in nature. Thats all.. its simple.

Mary

[Saint Nicholas]

Mary, that was great! My Gosh ADAM HAD WAS BORN WITH A SIN NATURE! It's a good thing Augustine did not hear that. We would all be bloodletted of evil demons for saying that.

Nicholas

[Brandan Kraft]

Thank you Mary - that is right - something that is perfectly holy cannot become unholy. Adam before the fall only had an earthy righteousness in that he had not outwardly transgressed the laws that had been communicated to him. Inside him, however was a black heart that needed regeneration and conversion to the Gospel of Free Grace - which you see happen immediately after his fall with God covering him and eve.

[MCoving]

Also just another quick thought on this and other issues. I've learned that most theological ideas are black or white. Its either all or nothing. So many people try to find a middle ground almost as if they want to please men, people have a hard time with a yes or no answer they always want to put a "but" in there or make some room for the middle road. Just like with Gods sovereignty its ALL or none, there's no "buts" like some say "but God isn't sovereign over evil things".. come on. And this is one thing I have talked about with a friend of mine. He makes a very, very good point when he says its either all or none. You either believe God is sovereign over all or nothing.

I think that also applies here.. Adam was either made with a sinful nature or not. THere's no middle ground which seems a lot of reformed churches believe in. Adam was either completely holy in nature or he was not. Its not he was holy then changed to having a sinful nature. Sin comes from a sinful nature and holiness comes from a holy nature. Pure and simple.. black and white. Either all or none.. wish our society would stop trying to take a middle ground in things. Just because Adam hadn't sinned yet.. just because he was made in the image of God (remind you it never said he was made God!!) doesn't mean that sinful nature is NOT there. Just because someone doesn't recognize something, doesn't mean its not there...

Mary

[lionovjudah]

Thank you Mary - that is right - something that is perfectly holy cannot become unholy. Adam before the fall only had an earthy righteousness in that he had not outwardly transgressed the laws that had been communicated to him. Inside him, however was a black heart that needed regeneration and conversion to the Gospel of Free Grace - which you see happen immediately after his fall with God covering him and eve.

There is only one small matter to this thinking. It is not present in the writ!!!! Look at the truthful doctrines this dismisses.

1) Federal headship of adam to all his posterity.
2) imputation of adams sin to his posterity.
3) Takes all the blame off of man and satan and puts it on God
4) Takes satan out of the ballgame
5) Completely destroys all of Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15.
6) Makes the fall inconsequential
7) Makes the relationship between adam and Christ chaotic.

There are 2 men in the whole world. Adam and Christ. One earthly, one heavenly. And they are representatives. Not only individually but corporately. Your view completely disassociates and seperates us from Adam and Eve. There is a relationship presented in the writ, and to ignore it or twist its meaning is wrong. Christ came to save a world that is completely fallen. Not to save a world that He cursed.


By the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one . . . through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men . . . through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners" (Rom. 5:17-19)

[lionovjudah]

Also just another quick thought on this and other issues. I've learned that most theological ideas are black or white. Its either all or nothing. So many people try to find a middle ground almost as if they want to please men, people have a hard time with a yes or no answer they always want to put a "but" in there or make some room for the middle road. Just like with Gods sovereignty its ALL or none, there's no "buts" like some say "but God isn't sovereign over evil things".. come on. And this is one thing I have talked about with a friend of mine. He makes a very, very good point when he says its either all or none. You either believe God is sovereign over all or nothing.

I think that also applies here.. Adam was either made with a sinful nature or not. THere's no middle ground which seems a lot of reformed churches believe in. Adam was either completely holy in nature or he was not. Its not he was holy then changed to having a sinful nature. Sin comes from a sinful nature and holiness comes from a holy nature. Pure and simple.. black and white. Either all or none.. wish our society would stop trying to take a middle ground in things. Just because Adam hadn't sinned yet.. just because he was made in the image of God (remind you it never said he was made God!!) doesn't mean that sinful nature is NOT there. Just because someone doesn't recognize something, doesn't mean its not there...

Mary

Mary this may get an applause, but is completely false. And I mean completely, no middle ground. We are a example of not being either holy or fallen. There is nothing mentioned in the creation account that God made anythig and called it evil. Nothing MAry. So the platitudes you give brandan are blind. I just wish someone can show that God created adam and continues to create men already fallen, with no relationship to Adam,

[katoikei]

Dear Mary,

Here is a very interesting passage. I love the part where Adonai makes clothes to cover there shame.

1 Corinthians 15:45-49

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

[Brandan Kraft]

There is only one small matter to this thinking. It is not present in the writ!!!! Look at the truthful doctrines this dismisses.

1) Federal headship of adam to all his posterity.

I don't understand this at all - when Adam fell - it was representative of what would happen to all of the elect as well. Adam fell and experienced redemption in Christ for he was given the grace to look forward to the cross and thank God for his salvation. The same is true for his elect posterity. They too fall just like Adam did.

2) imputation of adams sin to his posterity.

not taught in scripture... Imputation is an eternal event - if God sees his children as imputed with sin, then they are always imputed with sin. There is no imputation of sin to the elect... Rom 4:8, (KJV), Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

3) Takes all the blame off of man and satan and puts it on God

I don't see how this is the case... But ok - I guess it's true if Joe says so...

4) Takes satan out of the ballgame

Satan is just a pawn - he doesn't have a stake in the game.

5) Completely destroys all of Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15.

You've misinterpreted those passages. We've had threads that exegete these passages in depth. Go look them up.

6) Makes the fall inconsequential

No - it gives the fall a purpose.

7) Makes the relationship between adam and Christ chaotic.

There are 2 men in the whole world. Adam and Christ. One earthly, one heavenly. And they are representatives. Not only individually but corporately. Your view completely disassociates and seperates us from Adam and Eve.

The elect are physically descended from Adam and Eve.

Christ came to save a world that is completely fallen. Not to save a world that He cursed.

Wow - I agree! Boy people sure do have a short memory - I distinctly remember having this conversation on this forum before

[lionovjudah]

Wow - I agree! Boy people sure do have a short memory - I distinctly remember having this conversation on this forum before

It is always good to rehash discussions brandan. Especially ones that speak of a novel understanding. May the Holy Spirit give us light and patience when speaking.

Let us also remember there is a difference between imputed sin and original sin. Guilt from adams sin and ruined human nature respectively. This distinction MUST be maintained in order for proper understanding.

[Brandan Kraft]

Joe, I would suggest watching this video from this year's conference where we discussed this in depth. http://www.predestinarian.net/movies..._episode_4.wmv

[sinned]

I just wish someone can show that God created adam and continues to create men already fallen, with no relationship to Adam.

Not sure I understand what you are asking LOJ- Man was created with a sinful nature and the fact that God gave him a free will to chose, validates it. Lest we beat up Adam and Eve, we would have done the same thing- "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

"Behold I was shappen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5)

I love the part where Adonai makes clothes to cover there shame.

I love it where Adonai covers us with His own precious blood. He is so merciful.

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost had made you overseers to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood." Acts 20:28

Peace
sinned