God wants all men to be saved?:

[sinned]

Greetings to all on Predestinarian Net. I have been browsing the beliefs page on many of the members and had noticed that some had answered "NO" to the following question "Does God want all men to be saved?"

What are the thoughts of those who answered no, to the 2 Peter 3:9, "the Lord is not slack concerning His promise as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

I am sure that someone has probably asked this question before. I am new to Predestinarian Net so I was just curious?

Peace
sinned

[Whammer]

You are right that this issue has been discussed in many threads, so feel free to take your time reading the forum and the many threads that address the issue. But a couple short answers IMO (as I am not the forum, nor a mod.) as we stay in the context of WHO Peter is talking to, so from the beginning of the letter there is a focus so we dont make the word "ALL" to mean all exclusivley.....out of context and take it to have a universal tone that goes beyond the context of the letter itself and the people. Also, we need to think about "the promise" that God is not slow to keep.....what promise? Dig that out abit, but I would reccomend a good prayerful read thru Isa. chs. 43-53, verses like Isa. 46:8-13 should jump right out, also the 135th psalm......verses like 6, and then psalm 115:1-3 in a comparison about what it means to be God.
You have to ask yourself what it means to be God Almighty as there is no other being in existence like Him (Isa. 44:6-7)
He is the only being that can speak His mind and it comes to pass.....look at the creation, look at the promise of a new heavens and earth where righteousness dwells. He is the only being that has the power and wisdom to "do as He pleases".........and like King Nebuchadnezzar found out......."who can ward off His hand or say.......what have you done?"
Dan. 4:34-35.
Also, ask the question........could anything happen that could thwart or frustrate God? Could God want something to happen and not pull it off? What could stop Him from having what He wanted? Is man just too powerful, is sin too big an obstacle, is the devil to tough, is God schizo?
Anyway, my answer is going way too long, just do searches on the topics of God's sovereignty, EJ, predestination for starters and you will find a ton of interesting reading, alot to study but well worth it.
BK or one of the other mods may list some particular threads too that are helpful........so once again, dig in and enjoy.

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

Greetings to all on Predestinarian Net. I have been browsing the beliefs page on many of the members and had noticed that some had answered "NO" to the following question "Does God want all men to be saved?"

What are the thoughts of those who answered no, to the 2 Peter 3:9, "the Lord is not slack concerning His promise as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

I am sure that someone has probably asked this question before. I am new to Predestinarian Net so I was just curious?

Peace
sinned

Context, context, context!

In the realm of interpretation, context is king.

Examine the indexing of verse you posted. It's formula is "2 Peter 3:9" which informs us that it's taken from the third chapter of the second epistle of Peter, and that it's the ninth verse into the chapter.

If we back-track through the third chapter to it's beginning, we find ourselves as verse 1, which gives us a clue as to WHO Peter was addressing;

[2 Pet 3:1, (KJV)] "... This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:"

At the start of this chapter, Peter first informs the readers, to whom the letter was addressed, at that time, that a) it was a second epistle; b) he esteemed the intended audience as "beloved" acknowledging their mutual standing in Christ; c) that he was specifically addressing other believers (eg 'I now write unto YOU'), and his purpose for doing so was to stir up THEIR "pure minds" by way of rememberence.

In this chapter, Peter wanted to remind these 'Brothers (belovd) in the LORD' the teachings recieved by them from the Prophets, Apostles;

[2 Pet 3:2, (KJV)] "... That YE may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:"

If you read through verses 1 to 9, you will see that Peter draws a comparison between two types of people, and the contrast is obvious.

1) Scoffers, walking after their own lusts, questioning the Truth of the Lord's second advent,

&

2) And of those whom Peter states God is "longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"

I hope this clear things up.

In Him,

Scott.

[Brandan Kraft]

Also - let's think about this logically...

If GOD really wanted everyone to be saved... Welll.... They'd all be saved, right?

I believe in a God who gets EVERYTHING He wants because He is all powerful.

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

Also - let's think about this logically...

If GOD really wanted everyone to be saved... Welll.... They'd all be saved, right?

I believe in a God who gets EVERYTHING He wants because He is all powerful.

I agree.

I've experienced the usage of this particular verse as a means to justify universal atonement in the past by those who support such views, and I'm facinated by the obvious mishandling of the text to say the least. I'm not saying Sinned did so as well, but I think he's fallen victim to those who have.

[unhingedsquare]

The last word in this controversy will not occur until Jesus returns to put things the way they should be. We are of course talking about the mind of the Eternal and it does not surprise or alarm at the disagreements. It does seem reasonable that Christ died only for those who inherit eternal life. However, one does not end up in hell for his or her sin but rather unbelief.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. ESV

God, of course, is 100% to be credited for one to be in eternal life. Man, on the other hand, is 100% at fault for disbelief and eternal death. The baptist declared Jesus to be the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. World in that context would refer to the people in the world not the planet itself as some would say.

God's peace. †

[Just Grace]

Also - let's think about this logically...

If GOD really wanted everyone to be saved... Welll.... They'd all be saved, right?

I believe in a God who gets EVERYTHING He wants because He is all powerful.

I love logic Stops me going insane...

Not all will be saved, seems quite clear from Scripture, some will not come to the light so that their deeds will be expsosed.

On the one one hand I believe that God approaches all men at some time... but He has mercy and pity on whom He wills...

It is very interesting... Salvation is Pure Grace, why He does not give it to all is not my business, 'Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right'?

[Whammer]

The last word in this controversy will not occur until Jesus returns to put things the way they should be. We are of course talking about the mind of the Eternal and it does not surprise or alarm at the disagreements. It does seem reasonable that Christ died only for those who inherit eternal life. However, one does not end up in hell for his or her sin but rather unbelief.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. ESV

God, of course, is 100% to be credited for one to be in eternal life. Man, on the other hand, is 100% at fault for disbelief and eternal death. The baptist declared Jesus to be the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. World in that context would refer to the people in the world not the planet itself as some would say.

God's peace. †

So I guess unbelief isnt sin?? And the reprobate doesnt end up there because they are reprobates?
You say that man is 100% responsible for where he/she goes?
God has nothing to do with it? He only has 100% in salvation and that is all that is written? Hogwash!
The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world..............DID SO!.. He took away the sins of the gentiles and the jews that He died for.......not just the jews.....period.
The reprobate is what he/she is.........a reprobate, and their sins were not propitiated in the blood of Christ, they were not propitiated or substituted for in any sense.......period.
Once again you are too man-centered. Giving man a power above God, to choose his place of eternal destiny apart from God.........and it sounds so noble to give man the place of 100% fault.........no one would dispute that man is evil and deserves hell, but to rest man's final destination upon his own free will is garbage. You have way too many pre-suppositions here that are false..........as if God would be evil if He made man sinful, and to be part of the lake of fire that burns forever. Once again hogwash, as there is only one creator, and what ever He creates finds its place where ever He has designed that it be. Your post is a hinderance to truth and should be exposed for what it is.........false!
It sounds so noble trying to defend God and all, but it wont work biblically as He is the "author of ALL things"........both good and evil.
We know that in Him no darkness is........no evil thing dwells, and that He does not do evil thru His creation (1 John) but that He is the originator/creator of ALL that is in existence.........man is what he is because God made him that way, and there is no unrighteousness with God............despite what our old nature may make of it!!

[MCoving]

I love logic Stops me going insane...

Not all will be saved, seems quite clear from Scripture, some will not come to the light so that their deeds will be expsosed.

On the one one hand I believe that God approaches all men at some time... but He has mercy and pity on whom He wills...

It is very interesting... Salvation is Pure Grace, why He does not give it to all is not my business, 'Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right'?

How does God approach all men at some time but only offer salvation to a few? That doesn't make sense to me considering this verse in 1 Thessalonians 5:24 "Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass". God doesn't call everyone, he doesn't approach everyone. Or everyone would be saved.. those he called he also justified (Romans).

Mary

[Whammer]

I love logic On the one one hand I believe that God approaches all men at some time... but He has mercy and pity on whom He wills...

Yeah, what do you mean God approaches all men, this seems a little strange???

[unhingedsquare]

Whammer,

God has never said He created sin and evil. I am not defending the Almighty He is quite capable of doing that Himself. I am however, defending what the scripture clearly teaches. Many will say God said it, I believe it and that settles it. In my thinking it should be God said it, that settles it whether I believe, like it or not. As I said it seem reasonable to make the assertion that God is responsible and wants all that happens. That is not what is presented to us in Holy Writ.

Matthew 12:31-32 Jesus said all manner of sin and blasphemy would be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That is the unbelief to which I refer. It makes no logical sense for sure but thus saith the Lord. For one to resist the Holy Spirit and say he or she does not need nor wants Christ is what damns one.

God's peace. †

[Whammer]

Whammer,

God has never said He created sin and evil. I am not defending the Almighty He is quite capable of doing that Himself. I am however, defending what the scripture clearly teaches. Many will say God said it, I believe it and that settles it. In my thinking it should be God said it, that settles it whether I believe, like it or not. As I said it seem reasonable to make the assertion that God is responsible and wants all that happens. That is not what is presented to us in Holy Writ.

Matthew 12:31-32 Jesus said all manner of sin and blasphemy would be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That is the unbelief to which I refer. It makes no logical sense for sure but thus saith the Lord. For one to resist the Holy Spirit and say he or she does not need nor wants Christ is what damns one.

God's peace. †

So where did sin and evil get its existence??
Since there is no other God but one and there is no other Creator........did they just pop in to existence apart from God?
Dont side-step the issue either, get into detail, where did these things come from? Is satan able to create? Is man able to bring forth things into existence things that never existed before?
Your quote of Matt. 12 is typical of someone who cares nothing for context, read into it what you will, but it makes no sense.

[unhingedsquare]

Whammer,

Please inform me how Matthew 12:31-32 is out of context. Context is definitely important but it does little if dropped like a lead balloon or a cold splash of water on a discussion.

In addition if God claimed to be the creator of sin please post the locations of such claim. To say that Satan and man were created by God and sinned therefore God created sin does not follow. Of course if there was such an admission of guilt by our Holy Maker then that would be the end of it wouldn't it.

God's peace. †

[Whammer]

Whammer,

Please inform me how Matthew 12:31-32 is out of context. Context is definitely important but it does little if dropped like a lead balloon or a cold splash of water on a discussion.

In addition if God claimed to be the creator of sin please post the locations of such claim. To say that Satan and man were created by God and sinned therefore God created sin does not follow. Of course if there was such an admission of guilt by our Holy Maker then that would be the end of it wouldn't it.

God's peace. †

Mat. 12 is not out of context, your use of it is. To say that the pharisees are just guilty of unbelief is niave.........the blasephemy of the Holy Spirit is just exactly what they did, ascribe the works of God to the devil and vice versa. If unbelief were itself the unpardonable sin then we would have no NT as paul would have been guilty (1 Tim.1:13)
I also assert that God alone is the creator of ALL things that exist (Col. 1:16)......period. There is no other creator! There is no one like God in any way that could simply speak........and then it exists! Our God is not guilty of sin............He simply made satan and man the way He did, otherwise how did they turn out the way they are..........by God not speaking????
Get it?? Maybe not so rather than answer my questions with a question, you could actually give biblical proof of how those things came to exist apart from God speaking them into existence!?
My questions still stand unanswered by you, totally unanswered.
How did the devil come to be the devil? How did sin come to exist in man?
In all the material that was lost in the 3 week stretch that BK lost all material, you never showed how thistle trees could produce figs, or grape trees could produce anything other than grapes (Mat. 7)
All you could do was say that the context was about false prophets and then leave it at that.
So quit dodging the issues and tell me where these things come from or how they came to exist........the devil, sin, evil.....maybe in the context of Lam. 3:37-38, maybe Isa. 48:3-8. I want answers to my questions since you seem to say that if God created them it would be unjust. If it does make Him unjust, then tell me how????

[lionovjudah]

Whammer,

In addition if God claimed to be the creator of sin please post the locations of such claim. To say that Satan and man were created by God and sinned therefore God created sin does not follow. Of course if there was such an admission of guilt by our Holy Maker then that would be the end of it wouldn't it.

God's peace. †

I have asked this question also. I have yet to get a response other than Isaiah 45 or Col 1. Both of which are a stretch to the claim at best. This discussion should also be moved to the transmission fo sin thread not to detract from other points here.

One more point though, Christ Himself CLEARLY states a house divided against itself cannot survive, period. God would not divide His house, His elect by infusing sin into them, then correcting it on an hourly basis.

I will not attribute the creation of moral evil/sin, to the Holy Creator. If i am wrong, well so be it. Christ can tell me Himself when we meet. God Himself breathed into Adam. How God breathed a sinful anything out of Himself is an impossiblity Adam became a living soul immediately after receiving the breath of God Himself. There is no montion of Him creating Him evil

[Whammer]

I have asked this question also. I have yet to get a response other than Isaiah 45 or Col 1. Both of which are a stretch to the claim at best. This discussion should also be moved to the transmission fo sin thread not to detract from other points here.

One more point though, Christ Himself CLEARLY states a house divided against itself cannot survive, period. God would not divide His house, His elect by infusing sin into them, then correcting it on an hourly basis.

I will not attribute the creation of moral evil/sin, to the Holy Creator. If i am wrong, well so be it. Christ can tell me Himself when we meet. God Himself breathed into Adam. How God breathed a sinful anything out of Himself is an impossiblity Adam became a living soul immediately after receiving the breath of God Himself. There is no montion of Him creating Him evil

This is totally illogical Joe. A house divided against itself............as the creation model?
God Himself breathed into adam and that means that adam is without sin?
You have the same questions to answer as UHS because all the exists comes from the mouth of God..............EVERYTHING.
How could these things come to exist apart from the mouth of God??
How??? I want to know??
Is there another God? Is there something else out there that Jesus has no control over??

[rlhuckle]

Sometimes we need to remove the emotion and take a look at the logic (and the Logos) that remains. How do we know true Holiness and Righteousness? How do we know depravity and evil? How do we know light apart from darkness? God created all things--and the creation of all things (including sin) was a good thing from God's perspective (and very informative from our perspective). It is a shame that not too many people see it for what it is--a tool used to glorify God's ultimate Holiness and Righteousness--just as every other thing God created. Tell me, where in the writ does it say it is a sin for God to create sin? Has God bound Himself by Himself? Has God rebelled against Himself? Nada. The truth remains.

[Brandan Kraft]

Sometimes we need to remove the emotion and take a look at the logic (and the Logos) that remains. How do we know true Holiness and Righteousness? How do we know depravity and evil? How do we know light apart from darkness? God created all things--and the creation of all things (including sin) was a good thing from God's perspective (and very informative from our perspective). It is a shame that not too many people see it for what it is--a tool used to glorify God's ultimate Holiness and Righteousness--just as every other thing God created. Tell me, where in the writ does it say it is a sin for God to create sin? Has God bound Himself by Himself? Has God rebelled against Himself? Nada. The truth remains.

Amen Roger - Amen. Tradition rules in the minds of men as opposed to the truth.

[unhingedsquare]

Whammer,

To say Matthew 12 was only the pharisee of that day then perhaps Ephesians 2 is only to the Ephesians. I am sure you would not say that but I can show you some that will say that. The pharisee in that day is like the unbelievers in this day who in pride and self righteousness reject Christ.

Did you perhaps mean Isaiah 45? I looked at 48 and could not see where in that chapter anything could be used to show God does evil or creates it. Granted God uses the evil that men do to chastise His own for disobedience. Just like He will use evil rulers to curb wickedness by passing and enforcing laws. Jesus is after all King of kings and Lord of lords. Lamentations would be of the same type of showing that God uses these things to cause His desires upon His people. However, the actors carrying those things out are following their own sinful lusts and are completely responsible. God still remains True Light in Whom is no darkness at all. It is His judgment after all which is the final word not ours.

As far as St Paul being and unbeliever he most certainly was but was granted repentance and faith. Each person would be lost if he or she remains in unbelief. And that unbelief is his or her fault not God's.

No I would never say that Matt 7 was only about false teachers at that time. That would hold true today as well. One who steps forth as a teacher presents oneself as a representative of Jesus and is responsible for what he says.

God's peace. †

[rlhuckle]

Gen 1:1-3 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

First the darkness then the light...

Gen 2:21-25 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

First the darkness....blind ignorance

Gen 3:6-7 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Then the light....knowledge of the truth