God wants all men to be saved?:

[GraceAmbassador]

We MUST at least admit that EVIL is evil only because GOD called it evil in the first place; There can be no notion of good and evil apart from God. if God called something EVIL in the first place, then GOD must have had a pre-existing idea of what EVIL was, or better, in HIS infinite wisdom He knew what evil was. So please admit at least, perhaps, that God eternally had an idea of what evil was. That's why He was the determining factor of what EVIL would be. If you start by the beginning point of how EVIL became evil and it was determined as EVIL and you find WHO determined it be so, then you will find it easier to understand the idea that God is Sovereign over evil and that he created beings with a propensity for such evil. Thereafter it will be even easier to see God as the controller and the "creator" of evil. To say that God did not create evil or evil creatures can and in fact will lead us to relativism. Eastern religions, cults and paganism can also attempt to teach an idea of good and evil. Apart from a Creator of good and EVIL their notion of good and evil is the same as that of those who believe that God has or had no participation in the entrance of EVIL in the world: shallow and relative; not ABSOLUTE.

We also must admit, or even review our position in the term "natural man", or "first estate" cited at least a few times in this thread can and probably has been misinterpreted; God created man in his "natural state" which had the propensity to sin; thus God created man prone to sin BY PURPOSE. Once we admit that, then it is also very easy to receive faithfully and humbly the notion that God created "natural beings" to sin and they sinned BY HIS PURPOSE.

For those in love with the O.T. I would like to suggest that for every single one of God's decrees against something or some act that He deemed evil, there is a tremendous purpose in terms of cleanliness, relationships, holiness and overall well being; every single aspect, from circumcision to the 10 commandments, even the dietary laws and many other of God's decrees have to do with evil that we could cause to us and others and would not reflect and portray God's Glory. God knew in His own eternal attribute what EVIL would constitute and then created beings with a proclivity for such an evil. If that is not equivalent to creating the EVIL and those practice it, then I don't know anything about these issues.

Our perspective should be, in my humble opinion, not so much on the EVIL itself, but in the PROVIDENCE God has taken to remedy EVIL in His elect by Jesus Christ our Lord. Things that we did or do can only separate us from God, but the ONE thing God did is the only way for us to return to Him with righteousness not of our own! Both EVIL and its remedy come from the same source!
The Gospel is God's providence!

I hope you can reflect on this although I so poorly and so failingly have stated it.

Milt

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

1 Kings 22:18-23, (KJV) "... And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?


And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD:


I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead?


And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.


And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persude him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.


Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee."

I wounder if God was looking to save Ahab in this passage, Or if He wrath and fury was upon him?

[rlhuckle]

Anything taught that is not explicitly,yet implicitly stated in the word is an oral traition. Of which , are not bad 100% of the time. ie trinity, yposticatic union etc etc.

Agreed.

No evidence of the word or action of God speaking of infused. Just as our sins were not infused into Christ, and His righteoussness not infused into us for our justification, God NEVER uses this method.

Agreed, poor choice of words; I was merely using it in the context of mating personality (intellect,will,desires,etc.) with physicality (material/natural world).

Was Adam EVER sinless in God's eyes? Did God plan to make Adam sinless (perfect) and then purpose Him to become (change=fall) sinful? If this was God's plan (to create Adam sinless=perfect); what kind of God would then take his 'perfect' creation and then purposefully spoil it? I know, here is where you insert the "not God's fault for sin" argument.

Becasue Gods plan included Christ before the fall, that is why.

Agreed on the supra part but God's plan always points to a spiritual goal, not a physical one. A 'restoration' of physical 'perfection' that your position promotes in regards to Adam's originality is unnecessary if the goal is not physical.

AHAA!!! This is where we both err then. We have to protect His immutablity, which ONLY included His nature and not actions as some profess at all costs, yet I am tainting His sovereignty by protecting His Holiness!!!!! His immutability has nothing to do with His manifestation of actions towards His creation. He acts as He acts. But He can do no unrighteoussness or be unjust.

Yep, it is easy to fall into our 'pet' defensive positions without even realizing it. God (or His attributes) needs no defense from us. My concept of immutability and your concept of sovereignty are just that-- ours. God is God and we are struggling to gain a proper understanding of what He has revealed about Himself. It is an exciting journey.

Thanks Milt for your clarification and UGC for another example of how God uses the tools He desires to accomplish His purposes regardless of how we each like to characterize them. May we all grow in knowledge of His truth.

[lionovjudah]

Agreed on the supra part but God's plan always points to a spiritual goal, not a physical one. A 'restoration' of physical 'perfection' that your position promotes in regards to Adam's originality is unnecessary if the goal is not physical.

I think it is both and, not either or Roger. hence the bodily ressurection. When i look at words like renewal and restoration which is Gospel language, it points to a time this existed that is different now. Are we renewed to something we never were? Does not the word restoration literally mean to restore to a position that once was? This is why I read the account as I do.

[rlhuckle]

I think it is both and, not either or Roger. hence the bodily ressurection. When i look at words like renewal and restoration which is Gospel language, it points to a time this existed that is different now. Are we renewed to something we never were? Does not the word restoration literally mean to restore to a position that once was? This is why I read the account as I do.

If I recall correctly, in the writ, the words renew and restore have to do with physical things--except for Elijah's 'restore all things,' which was fulfilled in John the Baptist--and yes, we are 'renewed' to something we never were: in our glorification (resurrection bodies) we will not have the 'ability' (or the desire, etc...) to sin. Come Lord Jesus.

[Robert R. Higby]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Brandan
Milt
Scott
Eileen
Mary
Greg
Bryan
Roger
Kyle
Nicholas

You are all a great encouragement to me in your stand for the truth! Others here certainly are as well.

It is a joy to see so many today reasoning through the scriptures and coming to numerous sound spiritual conclusions that 8 years ago I thought virtually no one else believed except myself! Back then the internet was as lonely and empty as any local Reformed church. The Holy Spirit is definitely working mightily in this network in spite of my past failures and those of others. The Lord has overridden our sins for his glory!

I realize that some of us do not agree on everything but I sense a definite unity in the Spirt and gospel that brings peace.

As some of you know, I have been mostly absent from the forum lately due to overtiime on a project at work. I also have a trip to Asia for 2 weeks coming in a few days. But I so look forward to the time when major participation becomes a reality again!

Grace alone and always,

Bro. Bob