Jacob and Esau

[MCoving]

I was reading thru Genesis and found the account about Jacob and Esau very interesting. I never realized before when I read thru the Bible the disobedience that even Jacob had. Many times in churches we always here of all the good works that believers do. The message in modern church is always about performance. Often times grace and forgiveness are left out, because of course we are to obey perfectly and not have to deal with mistakes. Yet we all make mistakes and we have a God who is full of compassion and mercy. And no I am not trying to write anything to exscuse sin or say we shouldn't obey thats not my point. My point is that too often we see Jacob as perfect and Esau as not perfect. Yet when I read this account it has absolutely NOTHING to do with good works.

I was just talking with a friend the other day who is a Catholic he nailed the difference between them and me to a tee. He said that protestants believe it is just faith while Catholics believe it is faith and good works that saves one. Though I may not say faith that saves but Christ alone, still getting to the point about works.

Jacob in Chapter 27 of Genesis was the one that in my eyes sinned and did something wrong.
Genesis 27:11,12 "Jacob answered his mother Rebekah, 'Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man and I am a smooth man. Perhaps my father will feel me, then I will be as a deceiver in his sight, and I will bring upon myself a curse and not a blessing'.
He lied to his father only to take the blessing away from his brother. Course in the end Esau did wrong as well. But its just interesting because I never knew Jacob did this, its wrong. I wouldn't consider lieing to your father, and even planning this with the mother a good work! This also backs up the verse in
Romans 9:10-13 "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

I just find this to be good evidence in support of salvation being from God alone and not because of anything man does, not because of good works. Even with Jacobs sin of lieing and his plan to steal the blessing, God still loved Him. It doesn't matter what we do God will always love His children. That love is what pushes us to learn and grow in God, and to obey Him.

Also find it interesting that God used a sinful act of lieing and stealing that Jacob did and turned it into something good, into what God had purposed. Does this not show an example of how God uses sin? How He is the determiner behind all things?

Also... in thinking about obedience which kinda sidetracked the Adam thread, obedience has nothing to do with salvation. Yeah a reprobrate can do good works, maybe even better than an elect. Yeah a reprobrate can claim to know God or know bible truths. Yet we know that they are blind.. their eyes do not see the true God of the Bible, they see some made up god. All mankind want to be following some god, whether they have fashioned up themselves to be one so they do as they want.. or whether they have made some other god. So it may appear as if a reprobrate can obey god or know god but it isn't the God we serve that they are obeying.

I think this thread is mostly about obedience and how good works has no part in salvation. I just really wanted to share my thoughts about Jacob and Esau I found that to be very intriguing to me, maybe some questions will spawn from this comment. Thanks!

Mary

[lionovjudah]

I was reading thru Genesis and found the account about Jacob and Esau very interesting. I never realized before when I read thru the Bible the disobedience that even Jacob had. Many times in churches we always here of all the good works that believers do. The message in modern church is always about performance. Often times grace and forgiveness are left out, because of course we are to obey perfectly and not have to deal with mistakes. Yet we all make mistakes and we have a God who is full of compassion and mercy. And no I am not trying to write anything to exscuse sin or say we shouldn't obey thats not my point. My point is that too often we see Jacob as perfect and Esau as not perfect. Yet when I read this account it has absolutely NOTHING to do with good works.

I was just talking with a friend the other day who is a Catholic he nailed the difference between them and me to a tee. He said that protestants believe it is just faith while Catholics believe it is faith and good works that saves one. Though I may not say faith that saves but Christ alone, still getting to the point about works.

Jacob in Chapter 27 of Genesis was the one that in my eyes sinned and did something wrong.
Genesis 27:11,12 "Jacob answered his mother Rebekah, 'Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man and I am a smooth man. Perhaps my father will feel me, then I will be as a deceiver in his sight, and I will bring upon myself a curse and not a blessing'.
He lied to his father only to take the blessing away from his brother. Course in the end Esau did wrong as well. But its just interesting because I never knew Jacob did this, its wrong. I wouldn't consider lieing to your father, and even planning this with the mother a good work! This also backs up the verse in
Romans 9:10-13 "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

I just find this to be good evidence in support of salvation being from God alone and not because of anything man does, not because of good works. Even with Jacobs sin of lieing and his plan to steal the blessing, God still loved Him. It doesn't matter what we do God will always love His children. That love is what pushes us to learn and grow in God, and to obey Him.

Also find it interesting that God used a sinful act of lieing and stealing that Jacob did and turned it into something good, into what God had purposed. Does this not show an example of how God uses sin? How He is the determiner behind all things?

Also... in thinking about obedience which kinda sidetracked the Adam thread, obedience has nothing to do with salvation. Yeah a reprobrate can do good works, maybe even better than an elect. Yeah a reprobrate can claim to know God or know bible truths. Yet we know that they are blind.. their eyes do not see the true God of the Bible, they see some made up god. All mankind want to be following some god, whether they have fashioned up themselves to be one so they do as they want.. or whether they have made some other god. So it may appear as if a reprobrate can obey god or know god but it isn't the God we serve that they are obeying.

I think this thread is mostly about obedience and how good works has no part in salvation. I just really wanted to share my thoughts about Jacob and Esau I found that to be very intriguing to me, maybe some questions will spawn from this comment. Thanks!

Mary

until his dieing day of wrapping his arms around Joseph, Jacob's life was plagued with problems. Chastisement after chastisaement. If this is not an example of how a saint is not guaranteed an easy journey, nothing is. Yet God remained faithful and secured the line to Joseph

[Just Grace]

It's important to see that the brothers were reconciled but also that there was another charge against Easu, that of sexual immorality.

Only one sin is unforgivable, and that is the rejection of forgiveness.

David

[Whammer]

It's important to see that the brothers were reconciled but also that there was another charge against Easu, that of sexual immorality.

Only one sin is unforgivable, and that is the rejection of forgiveness.

David

So David, if one "accepts" forgiveness................then he/she is forgiven?? So then forgiveness for Jesus is dependent on an act of righteousness (if accepting Jesus forgiveness is the "right thing to do") on our part??
Where do you find, in the scriptures, that rejection of forgiveness is the "unforgiveable sin">????????

[jmgipson]

So David, if one "accepts" forgiveness................then he/she is forgiven?? So then forgiveness for Jesus is dependent on an act of righteousness (if accepting Jesus forgiveness is the "right thing to do") on our part??
Where do you find, in the scriptures, that rejection of forgiveness is the "unforgiveable sin">????????

Bingo Bryan. This is what we call the hangover of todays church doctrine.

John

[Just Grace]

So David, if one "accepts" forgiveness................then he/she is forgiven?? So then forgiveness for Jesus is dependent on an act of righteousness (if accepting Jesus forgiveness is the "right thing to do") on our part??
Where do you find, in the scriptures, that rejection of forgiveness is the "unforgiveable sin">????????

For me, it seems clear that people will not come to the Light that their deeds might be exposed.

Not coming to the Light, in my opinion is my reason why people are lost.

There is a very fine line and God Judges.

It is something I am studying at the moment, what causes God to save one and not another. God Judges.

Sorry to be vague.

David

[Whammer]

For me, it seems clear that people will not come to the Light that their deeds might be exposed.

Not coming to the Light, in my opinion is my reason why people are lost.

There is a very fine line and God Judges.

It is something I am studying at the moment, what causes God to save one and not another. God Judges.

Sorry to be vague.

David

Hi David, I dont think you are being vague, it is just that post #3 is not close to being correct. I think if you dig into the scriptures prayerfully (Lord willing), you will surely search in vain to find what you asserted in that post, I dont know how you would even get close.

There is no doubt that those who we later see in the lake of fire (revelations) are the same people that Jesus talks about in John 3 (your 1st sentence in this post)....but that is indicative of the truth, it is not a cause or motivation for God..........read Rom. 9 again, and when you have time, try again to answer those other questions I asked

Hey John.........a hangover (lol).........so true brother

[Lynn]

It's important to see that the brothers were reconciled but also that there was another charge against Easu, that of sexual immorality.

Only one sin is unforgivable, and that is the rejection of forgiveness.

David

I doubt that you meant that the way you posted it.

At least I hope you didn't.



That sounds very familiar to the so called sinners prayer where folks are coaxed into repeating some devilish ritual prayer of accepting Jesus and His forgivness, and making a deciaion to claim Him as their personal savior.

That sounds so easy.

Just accept forgiveness and joy in yourself that Jesus won't have to beg you to accept Him any more.


Then try to live righteously by your own power.


It didn't happen that way with me.

And I didn't hunt the Lord down like some folks say you have to either.

He came to me, and I surrendered to Him.

I realized I had nothing at all to offer, and of myself, I still don't.

It's all of Gods grace, or its worthless.


I agree with Calvin in that Gods grace is irresistible.

Lynn

[wildboar]

Just Grace:

What sin of sexual immorality on the part of Esau are you referring to?

[Just Grace]

So David, if one "accepts" forgiveness................then he/she is forgiven?? So then forgiveness for Jesus is dependent on an act of righteousness (if accepting Jesus forgiveness is the "right thing to do") on our part??
Where do you find, in the scriptures, that rejection of forgiveness is the "unforgiveable sin">????????

That's what I am working out at the moment. I am not convinced of a lot of things at the moment.

For me it's complicated.

David

[Just Grace]

Just Grace:

What sin of sexual immorality on the part of Esau are you referring to?

...that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
(Heb 12:16)

He had a couple of wives and I am not sure where he got them from but it seems that his marriage life was basically fornication.

Actually the previous verse is most interesting, why would the writer or whoever was dictating the letter say ' see that no one fails to recieve the Grace of God'?

I know you cannot reply but there is not a lot I can do about that.

dm at welshweb.net

David

[Robert R. Higby]

The idea here might simply be that in selling his birthright for a bowl of stew, Esau acted quickly on his bodily desires without thought of the consequences. He couldn't even wait to eat! His pottage was an ancient equivalent of 'fast food' but sold at an infinitely higher price! This might have relevance to us when we think we are hungry and ready to vanish after not eating for a couple of meals.

The principle in sexual immorality is the same as quick indulgence of other forms of appetite, so I personally think that is the comparison being made here.

[unhingedsquare]

That's what I am working out at the moment. I am not convinced of a lot of things at the moment.

For me it's complicated.

David

David,

It is understandable that all this is very confusing. One usually looks at things in the light of common sense which is based upon common experience. John 1:12-13 states that to all who received Him become the God's children. Throughout our lives we receive gifts. Part of the reception is taking it, picking it up and taking it to our home. This is not the same as the reception we have of the promises paid for by Jesus. The closest analogy is that of eye color. This is received by each of us but by no effort of our own. One did not choose it, agree with it or anything else associated with it. The same with salvation. That gift is received by us without any effort or agreement for we are by nature enemies of God until He changes us.

St Paul also describes our salvation as adoption. Romans 8:15. Think of a baby. What does he or she do to get adopted? Absolutely nothing. It is the delight the parent has in the baby which causes it. The adoption is sealed and the baby had nothing to do with it. God's adopting us is that He caused in us that which He loves by the adoption which would be where how we think of adoption would fall apart as an analogy.

We also tend to think of God's love in terms of human love. In May 1518 Martin Luther was to defend the Heidelberg Disputation in order to contrast common sense about God and the way His Word presents Him. Point 28 contrasts the love of God with that of humans:

The love of God does not find, but creates, that which is pleasing to it. The love of man comes into being through that which is pleasing to it.

There is no way that you or I would be able to create in another person that which pleases us we must look for it. It is best to consider how God thinks is for us to think using common sense and turn it around.

I hope this is helpful to you in your consideration. God's peace. †

David

[Just Grace]

David,

It is understandable that all this is very confusing. One usually looks at things in the light of common sense which is based upon common experience. John 1:12-13 states that to all who received Him become the God's children. Throughout our lives we receive gifts. Part of the reception is taking it, picking it up and taking it to our home. This is not the same as the reception we have of the promises paid for by Jesus. The closest analogy is that of eye color. This is received by each of us but by no effort of our own. One did not choose it, agree with it or anything else associated with it. The same with salvation. That gift is received by us without any effort or agreement for we are by nature enemies of God until He changes us.

St Paul also describes our salvation as adoption. Romans 8:15. Think of a baby. What does he or she do to get adopted? Absolutely nothing. It is the delight the parent has in the baby which causes it. The adoption is sealed and the baby had nothing to do with it. God's adopting us is that He caused in us that which He loves by the adoption which would be where how we think of adoption would fall apart as an analogy.

We also tend to think of God's love in terms of human love. In May 1518 Martin Luther was to defend the Heidelberg Disputation in order to contrast common sense about God and the way His Word presents Him. Point 28 contrasts the love of God with that of humans:

The love of God does not find, but creates, that which is pleasing to it. The love of man comes into being through that which is pleasing to it.

There is no way that you or I would be able to create in another person that which pleases us we must look for it. It is best to consider how God thinks is for us to think using common sense and turn it around.

I hope this is helpful to you in your consideration. God's peace. †

David

I am not a babe, but I am a child I admit, even after 20 years.

I go deeper though.

My problem is I believe that not everyone born again is Elect.

David

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

I am not a babe, but I am a child I admit, even after 20 years.

I go deeper though.

My problem is I believe that not everyone born again is Elect.

David

What brings you to this conclusion?

[Robert David]

Hi David, have you noticed how the term "born again " is used by many today or misused rather. Saw a program some time ago called "A car born again". All they did was buy an old wreck,change a few parts,paint it and polish it so it looked really nice but given a few years it will end up on the rubbish tip.Is this what you mean? Also 20 minutes or 20 yrs, should we see this as a merit? Should it be not seen as Gods purpose in our lives, when He has seen fit to awaken us. Confusion is something to watch out for. In times past and today and in times to come Confusion is a "weapon" which God uses against His enemies. How many battles havnt been won by a handful against thousands just by using Confusion. Just a couple of examples Gideon,David and Jonathan. I have learnt much because of those in this community who share generously with others of what they have been given. Best regards RD. PS. UGC asked a question, didnt like to but in but I did.

[Highlyfavored]

My problem is I believe that not everyone born again is Elect.

Is this like being kind of pregnant?

[Whammer]

My problem is I believe that not everyone born again is Elect.

David

C'mon David, Scott has asked you what you mean, Greg is curious, you have still not answered a couple related questions from me (that you said you would in another thread).......what are you talking about here???

If you believe not everyone born again is Elect........why do you call it a problem?
What are you saying man?

[Just Grace]

Is this like being kind of pregnant?

It is where I am with my theology at the moment.

Paul said that every man should be convinced in his own mind.

---

Sin is the same maybe. With regards to being 'pregnant'.

For after it has concieved...it brings forth it's fruit... and that is death!

James. Apostle.

Just a reply.

David

[Just Grace]

C'mon David, Scott has asked you what you mean, Greg is curious, you have still not answered a couple related questions from me (that you said you would in another thread).......what are you talking about here???

If you believe not everyone born again is Elect........why do you call it a problem?
What are you saying man?

My delay in answering questions is down to Brendan.

I have to wait.

Patient and Godly man that I am.

Bring it on.

David