God's judicial wrath (hatred) on the reprobate

[Craig kennedy]

Hi everyone,

I'm really wrestling with the finer points of God's Sovereign Reprobation at the moment.

I have a burning question on my heart for which I would be most grateful for your full, accurate and precise responses:

If Sovereign Reprobation in the High Grace Predestinarian (HGP) understanding of it is the correct interpretation of scripture ie God's wrath is eternally on the reprobate,
-does this mean that God's hatred of the reprobate is a judicial hatred (wrath) on account of the reprobate's sin? ...OR...

-does this mean that God's hatred (wrath) of the reprobate ie His detest of the reprobate as a person, is because the reprobate is not one of the Covenant People of God?

Blessings in Christ's Saving Name!

Craig "Down Under"

[Kentucky Kid]

God's sovereign predestination of all things which includes individuals both elect and reprobate is all based on God sovereignty to will as He pleases and not based on anything foreseen that man would do. Therefore God's judicial wrath on the reprobate is just as free as His judicial mercy on the elect. Romans 9:11-13: ("FOR THE CHILDREN BEING NOT YET BORN, NEITHER HAVING DONE ANY GOOD OR EVIL, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, NOT OF WORKS, BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH IT WAS SAID UNTO HER, THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. AS IT IS WRITTEN, JACOB HAVE I LOVED, BUT ESAU HAVE I HATED". Esau (who is a representative of all the reprobate- Malachi 1:1-5): his sins are not the issue here; God's sovereignty is. Romas 9:18: "THEREFORE HATH HE MERCY ON WHOM HE WILL HAVE MERCY, AND WHOM HE WILL HE HARDENETH". Again, man's sins aren't even mentioned discerning elect and reprobate, but God's sovereign will. Romans 9:22: "WHAT IF GOD, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, ENDURED WITH MUCH LONGSUFFERING THE VESSELS OF WRATH FITTED TO DESTRUCTION:". Again, man's sin isn't even mentioned, just God's will to show His wrath and power. What about being fitted for destruction? Let's look at John 12:39-41: "THEREFORE THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE, BECAUSE THAT ESAIAS SAID AGAIN, HE HATH BLINDED THEIR EYES, AND HARDENED THEIR HEART; THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, NOR UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM. THESE THINGS SAID ESAIAS, WHEN HE SAW HIS GLORY, AND SPAKE OF HIM". In this text it reveals God is actively involved in them not believing. He blinds them, He hardens them, does not let them understand. This is God being actively invovled in their reprobation. And this reprobation is part of His glory: "WHEN HE SAW HIS GLORY, AND SPAKE OF HIM" (John 12:41).......KK

[Craig kennedy]

Thank you Kentucky Kid for a most informative presentation of God's Sovereign Will and Pleasure.

You do have me on-side for the most part of what you say. In essence, you posit that God has one will which is His decretive will - and this decretive will is the will of His Sovereign Good Pleasure. Your posit exudes with the confident declaration that "God is God!" and acts within His own Divine counsel.Amen to that!

I still have some lingering questions, however, at this time. If your interpretation is the correct understanding of the mind and will of God, what do you make of the Great White Throne Judgment in the Book of Revelation? What is the nature, character and purpose of this judgment if - in fact - God is the perfect Creator of the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction? What would be the point of judging their works when God ordained, created and purposed for them to walk in unrighteous deeds?

Is this, then, a genuine judgment or is it mere theatre?

If your view is a correct one, I can understand why God hates such objects. But what becomes of a judicial procedure where the result is a fait accompli? Matthew 25:46 declares the eternity of life for the sheep (God's elect), and the eternity of punishment for the goats (God's reprobates) - see also Rev 20:15. I think you need to explain to me and show me why a judicial scene would be necessary in this scenario?

Blessings in Christ's Wonderful Name

Craig from "Down Under"

[melted]

Hello Craig,

I'm sure you will get some great answers here. I will throw in a few cents of my own if you don't mind.

I believe that the throne of judgment will be yet another place where God will display His holiness and righteousness in His judgment of the reprobate. We must remember that the reprobate has a purpose. What is his purpose? "To demonstrate [God's] wrath and make [God's] power known." The way that God uses the reprobate for this is that he has purposed the reprobate to sin and then He judges this sin, bringing wrath upon the sinner as a result. Without this process, God would not make His power and wrath known in such an awesome way.

Your question as to whether it's genuine or theater can really apply to EVERY aspect of life -- EVERY aspect of God's pre-planned, pre-destined, pre-purposed creation. We should not limit this question to only the reprobate's judgment. The purpose of creation as a whole is to magnify God's glory. It's all planned and purposed by God. The reprobate is no different. While the elect magnify God's glorious attributes of grace and mercy, the reprobate does also magnify God's other attributes.

Holiness is God's primary attribute. Isaiah records the seraphim crying out "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts" (Isa. 6:3); the Psalmist writes "the works of His hands are truth and justice, all His precepts are sure"(Psa. 111:7) and "Your way, O God, is holy; what god is great like our God?" (Psa. 77:13).

By establishing that God is just and righteous, we must also conclude that all of His attributes, actions, and decrees are just and righteous as well. Therefore, God's hate is an extension of His holiness just as His love is also an extension of His holiness. Lest any should question whether God hates, Psalms 5, among other passages, makes God's hatred abundantly clear. The main question we seek to answer is whether God has ever hated, currently hates, or will ever hate the Christian. To understand if God ever hates the Christian, we must first establish why God hates. Furthermore, we should examine the relationship between love and hate.

Rom 9:9-13 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON." (10) And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; (11) for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, (12) it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." (13) Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

Romans chapter 9 is full of land mines to the religionist who does not believe in the sovereign God of the Bible; the One who decrees salvation and reprobation with equal control. Paul clearly explains that God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born and before they had done anything good or bad. He goes on to further explain that this is so that God's purpose according to election would stand. God's purpose of election does not only include the election to salvation but also the election to damnation. It is not because of sin or because of works that God hates an individual, rather it is because God desires to hate that individual.

A similarity can be seen between love and hate in this regard. Both affections operate PRIOR to man's works, not BECAUSE of man's works. If a Christian will rightly deny that God's love is the result of man's good works, why will the same Christian believe that God's hate is the result of man's bad works? We have just seen that God loves and hates prior to the works of man, and even before man's birth. In election God loves one unto salvation just as in reprobation God hates one unto condemnation. Love is the affection on which salvation is founded and hate is the affection on which reprobation is founded.

The reprobate world cannot help but to be taken aback, aghast at this truth revealed in God's Word. They will object that God must hate a sinner because of the sins committed. They will say that God is unjust and evil if He hates an individual for "no good reason"; yet they fail to read the plain meaning of Paul's words establishing God's hate prior to the sinner being born and prior to sin having been committed. Furthermore, the idea that God hates for "no good reason" is shown to be false in that the reason is that of "God's purpose according to His choice". The proper reply to objections against God's active reprobation should be "who are you, O man, who answers back to God?" (Rom 9:20).

A parallel is established between salvation and reprobation. God loves His own children from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-5). In love He has chosen His elect and predestined them to adoption. Similarly, God has hated the reprobate from before the foundation of the world. In hate He has predestined the reprobate to eternal damnation to demonstrate His power and wrath.

1 Pet 2:7-8 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone," (8) and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

What does it mean for one to be "appointed" to disobedience and unbelief? "Appointed" is an aorist passive indicative of tithaymee - the passive voice is important because it denotes that the appointment is not performed by the sinner but by God. The aorist indicative means that the appointment was completed in the past. "Those who disbelieve", which are the ones appointed to doom, is a present active participle of apisteo, signifying one who is presently disbelieving. This further examination reveals then that God has IN THE PAST appointed ones to disobedience who do CURRENTLY not believe. The appointment precedes the unbelief. Hate and the decree to damn are prior to the sin!

Jud 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Here again we see ones who were "before ordained" or "designated" (prographo literally means to write previously) to damnation.

"God Never Hates the Christian"

[Brandan Kraft]

http://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=418

God's Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts
by Bob Higby

"Therefore he has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." (Rom. 9:18)

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:21)

"Then I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD." (Ex. 14:4)

What is involved in God’s act of hardening the hearts of reprobate souls? Is it merely a withdrawal of external worldly constraint, as so many expositors would have us believe? Those who labor diligently to uphold such a position are operating with the long-cherished assumption that God does not create evil or wickedness in the hearts of creatures. So the only way to explain away the biblical assertion that God hardens hearts is to propose that God could not possibly have actually done anything within the heart! Supposedly, the Lord took away restraining circumstances that kept Pharoah’s heart "in check."

The ‘removal of restraint’ interpretation would actually have us believe the opposite of what scripture explicitly teaches regarding God’s actions in the Exodus event. The Lord multiplied plagues and misery upon Egypt and Pharoah. The external circumstances sent were those that have caused the humiliation of many otherwise proud men into the dust, fearing even greater retribution and sorrow. But in conjunction with the increasing judgments that God sent upon Pharoah, the Lord correspondingly hardened Pharoah’s heart more rigidly against even a nominal repentance that would avoid temporal suffering. The hardening was separate from the sending of terrible calamity. The more suffering that Pharoah endured, the more determined he became to rebel against God in his thoughts and actions.

It is precisely the Lord’s constant determination of the condition of each and every heart that is the basis of the foreordaining of evil. If evil is unleashed merely by a removal of restraint, the exact course of that evil is somewhat unpredictable. So the doctrine that God merely permits or allows evil by removing his restraining presence must logically view history as a synthesis of God’s predetermination and mere foreknowledge of what will happen (in the case of evil bearing fruit), as does the Arminian. Such a synthesis completely fails to reconcile the paradox that the lack of pre-determination of the precise course of evil, which would be accomplished by controlling the exact sentiments of the hearts of creatures at all times, makes the pre-determination of a desired part of history (the triumph of Grace and salvation) in jeopardy. There can be no reconciliation between a teaching of absolute foreordination and one of partial ‘abstract’ foreknowledge, ever.

To all eternity, the Lord never abandons his sovereign determination of every sentiment of every creature. He presently sustains Belial in his work of deception, insuring that every desire of the devil’s heart will result in the exact course of thought and action that has been determined beforehand. Although the seed of reprobation is present in the non-elect from the very beginning of existence, God directs the sentiments of reprobation in such a manner that there is an increase in wicked desire and action. The seed is planted, watered, grows, and comes to fruition. This is how God hardens hearts, he makes the heart more wicked. As in the case of Pharoah, all such action by God is for the ultimate purpose of bringing glory and pleasure to himself and all his saints!

Martin Luther: "the love and hate of God towards men is immutable and eternal, existing, not merely before there was any merit or work of ‘free-will,’ but before the world was made; [so] all things take place in us of necessity, according as He has from eternity loved or not loved ... faith and unbelief come to us by no work of our own, but through the love and hatred of God" (The Bondage of the Will, pp. 226, 228-229).

Also, there is a good chapter out of Arthur Pink's book, the Sovereignty of God on the topic of reprobation. Banner of truth actually edited it out of their book. You can read it online here: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pi...nty/sov_05.htm

[Kentucky Kid]

Hi to Craig "down under"- Craig "up over" here. For lack of of time, I can only now at this time respond to your post #3: "judgment day"- as the religious world calls it. I don't believe it's judment day. Judgment of souls are an eternal act of God. And there is no "threatre show" with God. This is a DECLARATIVE JUDGMENT meaning that God will manifest Himself in all His greatness: revealing His wrath on the reprobate with no mercy and mercy on the elect. God shows us in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 the scene as it were: "the final courtroom" ONLY SO OUR FINITE MINDS CAN COMPREHEND THIS TO SOME DEGREE NOW. I believe Kyle (Melted) put it well that it will be God manifesting His greatness to us that we can't fathom now. But the judgment of individuals is before this world began. So it's not judgment day, but the fulfillment of Isaiah 66:22-24.........KK

[Robert R. Higby]

-does this mean that God's hatred of the reprobate is a judicial hatred (wrath) on account of the reprobate's sin? ...OR...

-does this mean that God's hatred (wrath) of the reprobate ie His detest of the reprobate as a person, is because the reprobate is not one of the Covenant People of God?

Any concept of 'judicial wrath' must be tempered by the reality that God IS the law and sovereign over any law that he has created. So God's hatred of sin and rebellion and judgment of both is strictly the product of his sovereign determination and decree to hate such attitudes and acts.

God detests the reprobate as a person because he has determined to create such a person as the object of his hatred.

The future judgment at the end of the age is only a manifestation and unfolding of God's eternal decree. So whatever God decrees publicly in the judgment to all creatures will only confirm what has been his sovereign will all along.

[Craig kennedy]

Hi melted (Kyle),

Thank you very much for your excellent post on God's sovereign attributes of Love and Hate which I read with intense interest and concentration.

You have presented a compelling case, I think, demonstrating that the Divine Hatred of the reprobate is eternal and flows from God's Sovereign will and good pleasure. In fact you have convinced me of the utter greatness and power of God in making this choice, that He is perfectly just and righteous in doing this and that His judgments are outworkings of His eternal self-determinations. I can go this far.

You have further convinced me that on the "Last Day" at the Great White Throne Judgment God doesn't find out anything new. He only executes His perfect self -determinations with infinite power, righteousness and justice. Indeed, in this sense, all of Creation will resound to the glory of God's majesty. I can also go this far.

But there are still some "road blocks" that preclude me proceeding further than this. If you don't mind I will list these "road blocks" in a series of posts to you and enable you to respond to them, one at a time.

My first "road block" and question in connection with this is:

-If this is the correct interpretation of God's judgment, then what do you make of the commands in scripture for the wicked to forsake their evil ways and return to the Lord who will abundantly pardon?

-Are the reprobate truly responsible for their sins and truly accountable to God? Do you believe in Human Responsibilty?

-The Bible says that sin is the transgression of the Law? But how can people be brought to account because of their sins when God has pre-determined their course with unerring accuracy? Are people mere puppets on a string?

-What Law are the reprobate under?

-What Law are the elect under.

These issues - and their apparent complexity and irresolution - make me reticent in proceeding further (at this time) in my statement of conviction and faith as I have outlined to you above.

I eagerly await your responses.

Blessings in Christ's Saving Name!

Craig from "Down Under"

[Nicholas Heath]

My first "road block" and question in connection with this is:

-If this is the correct interpretation of God's judgment, then what do you make of the commands in scripture for the wicked to forsake their evil ways and return to the Lord who will abundantly pardon?

Well, from what I understand, is that just because God commands something does not mean they have the ability, or freedom to do so. God commands, and also hardens the reprobates heart in there sins, so the reprobate will never forsake there evil ways.

-Are the reprobate truly responsible for their sins and truly accountable to God? Do you believe in Human Responsibilty?

Yes the reprobate is truly responsible for their sins, and are most surely accountable. Human responsibily is a must, it is based on Divine Sovereignty, not the heresy of human freedom. Divine Sovereignty and human resposiblity is the most logical, irrefutable, and biblical conclusion concerning utlimate reality. To affirm any sort of Sovereignty and human freedom, is affirming a contradiction.

-The Bible says that sin is the transgression of the Law? But how can people be brought to account because of their sins when God has pre-determined their course with unerring accuracy? Are people mere puppets on a string?

People will be brought to account because God is Sovereign and man is not free, there is no other option. Also, we are not puppets, we are clay in the potters hand, God can create what ever pleases Him, even the wicked for the day of evil or disaster.

-What Law are the reprobate under?

God's law, and therefore rightly condemned (I think?)

-What Law are the elect under.

The law of faith, free grace. Have been redeemed from the curse of the law that only condemns. (I think)

- and their apparent complexity and irresolution - make me reticent in proceeding further (at this time) in my statement of conviction and faith as I have outlined to you above.

I am sure we have all been where you are at right now. These apparent complexities and irresolutions lie in the minds of sinful men, and irrational thinking. As of now, the only thing that makes sense to me is, we are responsible, because God is sovereign, not because men are free. To affirm human autonomy, is to deny the Sovereignty of God, they just contradict each other. Can not have both, nor does the bible teach it. I encourage you to keep on studying, and may God bless you in sorting out these apparent complexities, and irresolutions.

[Craig kennedy]

Hi Robert,

Thank you for your post on God's judicial wrath which I have considered carefully.

At this time, I can go so far with your argument. I do agree that God will publicly display His infinite majesty and glory and will be vindicated as the God of perfect truth and justice. His eternal hatred of the reprobate will be shown to be all-wise - showing the greatness and power of God. You do have me on board with you in so far as you have argued to this point.

However, I have difficulty with the concept that God is the active, proximate cause of the reprobate's sin right down to the finest details of depravity and degradation. I think you must see that the logical outcome of your assertion leads to this apparent absurdity. Let me explain.

If your assertion is a true one, that means that practising homosexuals, transvestites, child molesters, rapists, murderers etc fulfil God's very purposes for them right down to every depraved, vile detail. That, truly, is the only possible outcome of your posit. But how is that to be reconciled with the scriptural injunctions to flee youthful lusts, to turn from greed, lasciviousness, jealousy, envying and every evil desire?

I am compelled to ask you:

-What is the place of God's Law in all this?

-What is the nature of preaching? What is the message of the gospel and how is it to be presented, given that your schema advocates that a person's choices and path have been eternally fixed and purposed right down to every minute detail?

It is the contemplation and consideration of these immense difficulties that makes me - at this time - extremely hesitant to proceed further in my investigation of these issues. In fact, the very posing of the questions themselves is only done with an extreme awkwardness that does not, apparently, lead me closer to God Himself.

I look forward to your responses.

Blessings in Christ's Saving Name!

Craig from "Down Under"

[Highlyfavored]

Hi Robert,

Thank you for your post on God's judicial wrath which I have considered carefully.

At this time, I can go so far with your argument. I do agree that God will publicly display His infinite majesty and glory and will be vindicated as the God of perfect truth and justice. His eternal hatred of the reprobate will be shown to be all-wise - showing the greatness and power of God. You do have me on board with you in so far as you have argued to this point.

However, I have difficulty with the concept that God is the active, proximate cause of the reprobate's sin right down to the finest details of depravity and degradation. I think you must see that the logical outcome of your assertion leads to this apparent absurdity. Let me explain.

If your assertion is a true one, that means that practising homosexuals, transvestites, child molesters, rapists, murderers etc fulfil God's very purposes for them right down to every depraved, vile detail. That, truly, is the only possible outcome of your posit. But how is that to be reconciled with the scriptural injunctions to flee youthful lusts, to turn from greed, lasciviousness, jealousy, envying and every evil desire?

I am compelled to ask you:

-What is the place of God's Law in all this?

-What is the nature of preaching? What is the message of the gospel and how is it to be presented, given that your schema advocates that a person's choices and path have been eternally fixed and purposed right down to every minute detail?

It is the contemplation and consideration of these immense difficulties that makes me - at this time - extremely hesitant to proceed further in my investigation of these issues. In fact, the very posing of the questions themselves is only done with an extreme awkwardness that does not, apparently, lead me closer to God Himself.

I look forward to your responses.

Blessings in Christ's Saving Name!

Craig from "Down Under"

You should go through the archives and read for a bit, most of your questions will be answered.

Then if you have a question please ask.

There are answers to the questions above you asked and they are logical.

Read on.

[MCoving]

Hi Craig! I am glad you are asking these questions and trying to understand. When I first came to this forum I was lost, I still didn't get Gods sovereignty, the pure idea that God would harden peoples hearts threw me off. I asked questions about how could God ordain a child to me murdered, or molested.. etc. How could a loving God create a certain group of people for another family besides His own? It just didn't make sense to me at all. But then I started reading more passages in scripture, and thinking on these things. And then a little light bulb went off in my head.. God lifted this veil from my eyes and I could see. Its the strangest most amazing thing ever all at once I understood that God was God, that He does do these things and what He wants. And He has a purpose for those He creates not in His family and those in His family, a purpose for the evil and good in this world. So many people will contribute God working in the good of things, but not the bad. Heck I'd rather God work in the bad so I know Im safe and everything will be okay!

Anyways these same questions you asked.. I asked in another thread. And interestingly enough had answered, and today I just have the amazing unexplainable faith in God... faith in knowing He is 100% sovereign, He controls everything 100% from the evil to the good, from the reprobate to the elect. Every aspect of everything, not just 75% percent but He is completely sovereign. Its a great comfort.

Also here is the thread where I had my questions... and where they began to be answered by God thru Scripture .The verses I read are on the thread too.. its funny looking back, kinda cool to see how stupid I was and how little light bulbs began to go off. http://www.predestinarian.net/showth...2606#post42606

Enjoy the reading and when done feel free to ask questions.. or private message me. Though I just came to the faith recently, don't really know a ton. And others may say I'd pry not be the best person to talk to 'cause I only 25, a youngin' but Gods done a lot in my life, and Hes really shown me some amazing truths in His Word. You know its cool to meet Jesus for the first time... Well take care and happy reading!

God bless,
Mary

[melted]

Hi Craig,

I appreciate your desire to grow in relation to these questions. I went through the very same questions when I first was faced with the hard truths of God's absolute sovereignty. I hope you don't think it's a "cop out", but I will just offer you a few resources to continue your study.

First, I have a small website where I have some articles dealing with some of these topics. Also I wrote a 20-some page essay in response to basically being kicked out of an assembly for teaching these things you're asking about. You can find the articles by clicking here. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Apart from just accepting the Bible at face value, much of my understanding on these topics has come from two men in particular, Gordon Clark and Vincent Cheung. You can find Clark's materials by clicking here and Cheung's here. I especially recommend Clark's book "Predestination" and Cheung's "Author of Sin" is good as well (though many of the contributers here do not necessary agree with that specific phrase, 'author of sin').

God bless you!

[lionovjudah]

Hi Craig,

I appreciate your desire to grow in relation to these questions. I went through the very same questions when I first was faced with the hard truths of God's absolute sovereignty. I hope you don't think it's a "cop out", but I will just offer you a few resources to continue your study.

First, I have a small website where I have some articles dealing with some of these topics. Also I wrote a 20-some page essay in response to basically being kicked out of an assembly for teaching these things you're asking about. You can find the articles by clicking here. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Apart from just accepting the Bible at face value, much of my understanding on these topics has come from two men in particular, Gordon Clark and Vincent Cheung. You can find Clark's materials by clicking here and Cheung's here. I especially recommend Clark's book "Predestination" and Cheung's "Author of Sin" is good as well (though many of the contributers here do not necessary agree with that specific phrase, 'author of sin').

God bless you!

Have you worked out an agreement with the administration here to constantly plug your site and own material? LOL Is there a topic we can discuss where we are not directed to bakers bread?

Good writing Kyle. May the Lord continue to bless you and yours

[CarolK]

Hi Craig

What is the place of God's Law in all this?

The purpose of the law is to show us our sinfulness and thus lead us to Christ, shutting us up to faith in him alone for redemption, righteousness, and grace.

What is the nature of preaching? What is the message of the gospel and how is it to be presented, given that your schema advocates that a person's choices and path have been eternally fixed and purposed right down to every minute detail?

The gospel is the means by which the Holy Spirit opens our eyes. We are to preach the gospel to all who will listen. God will use that gospel message to bring his sheep to himself. All the elect will 'hear' the message. The reprobate will not. Since we do not know who are the elect, we are to preach to all. God will use the message as he sees fit.

carol

[Brandan Kraft]

If your assertion is a true one, that means that practising homosexuals, transvestites, child molesters, rapists, murderers etc fulfil God's very purposes for them right down to every depraved, vile detail. That, truly, is the only possible outcome of your posit.

Of course. But the alternate is God "allows" it to happen, but doesn't do anything to stop it. Which is worse? God positively causing all evil things, or standing back and doing nothing to prevent them?

What is the place of God's Law in all this?

Carol answered this well.

What is the nature of preaching? What is the message of the gospel and how is it to be presented, given that your schema advocates that a person's choices and path have been eternally fixed and purposed right down to every minute detail?

The preaching of the Gospel is the announcement of WHAT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. It is the announcement of an accomplished salvation. It is the means by which the elect experience the salvation that has already been accomplished for them. Believing the Gospel doesn't SAVE someone in the sight of God, but it simply is a declaration of God's justification of that individual in Christ TO that individual.

[Craig kennedy]

Hi Everyone,

I want to thank everyone who encouraged me to read on and study Vincent Cheung's writings. Thank you, too, for the links and references to other studies and writings as well which I intend to follow through with.

Well I did read on and I read Cheung on "compatibilist" freedom. I must say that God used this writing to convince me of the truth that we willingly choose from a God-directed will - whether for good or evil, depending on whether He has hardened or enlightened us.

Indeed, God used this writing to teach me that God controls the thoughts and actions of both elect and reprobate and that both elect and reprobate are accountable to God because of Divine Sovereignty. In other words, moral responsibility does not presuppose human freedom but it presupposes Divine Sovereignty. God has worked in my heart that these considerations truly resonate with the heart and mind of God.

I am now convinced that Adam was not free from God to choose to remain free from sin - but, rather, God caused Adam to fall and then held him responsible for it. Therefore, the pattern is God is active in everything (never passive) and then holds both elect and reprobate responsible. This I do believe is the position of scripture.

How incredibly simple the gospel is - God has mercy on whom He wills and hardens the rest. For these reasons I now believe that the doctrine of "equal ultimacy" is a biblical one.

Cheung also convinced me that there is no such thing as a passive or permissive decree - rather, God controls every aspect of every detail of every human decision and action and then holds accountable. I am persuaded that "Soft Determinism" is unbiblical nonsense and folly.

I have - in the light of these God revealed truths - accordingly updated my Profile.

Yes, God's mercy to the elect and God's wrath to the reprobate are both demonstrations of His Divine Attributes which are an extension of His Holiness. You have helped me to see that the preaching of the gospel is a declaration of an accomplished redemption for God's elect alone - and so, accordingly, there is no "common grace" or free offer of the gospel.

Blessings in Christ's Saving Name,

Craig from "Down Under"

[MCoving]

My first "road block" and question in connection with this is:

-If this is the correct interpretation of God's judgment, then what do you make of the commands in scripture for the wicked to forsake their evil ways and return to the Lord who will abundantly pardon?

-Are the reprobate truly responsible for their sins and truly accountable to God? Do you believe in Human Responsibilty?

-The Bible says that sin is the transgression of the Law? But how can people be brought to account because of their sins when God has pre-determined their course with unerring accuracy? Are people mere puppets on a string?

-What Law are the reprobate under?

-What Law are the elect under.

These issues - and their apparent complexity and irresolution - make me reticent in proceeding further (at this time) in my statement of conviction and faith as I have outlined to you above.

I eagerly await your responses.

Blessings in Christ's Saving Name!

Craig from "Down Under"

Hi Everyone,

I want to thank everyone who encouraged me to read on and study Vincent Cheung's writings. Thank you, too, for the links and references to other studies and writings as well which I intend to follow through with.

Well I did read on and I read Cheung on "compatibilist" freedom. I must say that God used this writing to convince me of the truth that we willingly choose from a God-directed will - whether for good or evil, depending on whether He has hardened or enlightened us.

Indeed, God used this writing to teach me that God controls the thoughts and actions of both elect and reprobate and that both elect and reprobate are accountable to God because of Divine Sovereignty. In other words, moral responsibility does not presuppose human freedom but it presupposes Divine Sovereignty. God has worked in my heart that these considerations truly resonate with the heart and mind of God.

I am now convinced that Adam was not free from God to choose to remain free from sin - but, rather, God caused Adam to fall and then held him responsible for it. Therefore, the pattern is God is active in everything (never passive) and then holds both elect and reprobate responsible. This I do believe is the position of scripture.

How incredibly simple the gospel is - God has mercy on whom He wills and hardens the rest. For these reasons I now believe that the doctrine of "equal ultimacy" is a biblical one.

Cheung also convinced me that there is no such thing as a passive or permissive decree - rather, God controls every aspect of every detail of every human decision and action and then holds accountable. I am persuaded that "Soft Determinism" is unbiblical nonsense and folly.

I have - in the light of these God revealed truths - accordingly updated my Profile.

Yes, God's mercy to the elect and God's wrath to the reprobate are both demonstrations of His Divine Attributes which are an extension of His Holiness. You have helped me to see that the preaching of the gospel is a declaration of an accomplished redemption for God's elect alone - and so, accordingly, there is no "common grace" or free offer of the gospel.

Blessings in Christ's Saving Name,

Craig from "Down Under"

WOW! So you answered all your questions from before? Yeah I liked Cheungs responses on how God is the cause of all things, good and bad, but yet men are still held responsible. WE are held responsible because God says so in His Word, He is the cause of evil and good because He says so in His Word.

And it sure is a blessed thing to finally understand that God is sovereign over all.. hey I think its so comforting knowing that God is causing and actively controlling the evil in this world, that lets me know that I dont have to be worried that things will get out of control, or that men will just outwit God or just run rampant in the streets without any control! But what better control over evil and bad things then God himself!! I mean we have police and other men to control the evil in this world.. but I'm glad God is in control, and will be the ultimate judge.

Romans 9 has good verses about how God hates the nonelect, and how they are prepared for destruction. My prayers will be with you as you continue to grow in the Lord. Trust me there will be lots of more little light bulb moments for you! Just like with me

Mary

[Brandan Kraft]

Craig, would you mind explaining why you changed your profile suddently from supralapsarianism to arminianism? Thanks.

[Brandan Kraft]

Anyway, it just seems strange to me that you have waffled on your position so quickly. One day you seem like a supralapsarian, and now you're affirming free will? Why don't you just put "I don't know..." Because it sounds to me like you're really not sure of your positions. - Brandan