Catholics, Protestants and Us?

[MCoving]

Well I dont know if thats the right categories of each but I was talking with a young gentlemen tonight about God and different beliefs. Its interesting how many peope won't take a stand for what they believe in. Its almost like they want to say all the people are right, that as long as your not Buddhist or believing in some other god but believing in Christ Jesus and God that you'll be saved. But if you think about it aren't all three preaching a different gospel? Its interesting talking with this Catholic man, though he is a little unclear on what Catholics believe exactly, and often says I'm not sure haven't read that book of the Bible he is pretty set in his beliefs.

He says they believe that if you commit a mortal sin that you seperate yourself from God and thus won't be in Heaven. Whats the mortal sins anyone know? Yet they have some good points of doctrine that the protestants don't have. He admits though that his way is the hardest way of getting into Heaven, that its works and faith. Often refers to the idea that the Catholic church is the church of Christ, that it was past down thru that time. Is that true at all? Was that church the first church so to say? Also I dont get how people can go around saying its what they do and God.. don't they realize it brings God more glory to say its ALL Him and none of us? Yet they are set in their ways..

Haha I told him go ahead and believe your hard way that its about works for salvation.. I'll believe my way and not worry about whether I'll be in heaven or not, or whether God loves me no matter what I do.

So you have the Catholics and all their beliefs, and maybe are very nonjudgemental according to Jason. Seem to be more accepting of little messups like getting drunk or what not than protestants. But then you have the protestants who says its faith, and your decision that gets you to Heaven. So its not works yet whether you accept or reject Christ. Which is still a work really. And often in that group one person is more spiritual than another, and if you mess up you feel unloved and that God is not pleased with you, not to mention judged by others.

Then of course you have the truth.. high grace predestinarian if you want to call it that. That salvation is all God does and nothing man does, that no sin.. no mortal sin what not will seperate you from God. That it is not your decision whether you are saved but Gods alone. This last one don't you think brings more comfort and assurance than any of the others? More love and grace of God?

But how is it that people get stuck in the other two? And also kinda curious how does one know which one is right? And should we as believers be telling these other two religious groups that they are wrong? Its easy for me to witness and speak the truth to an atheist or one who doesn't have a religion than it is for me to speak the truth to a protestant or Catholic. Why is that? And how do you tell someone who is believing in a God, using the Bible yet decieved that they are wrong? No one wants to hear they are wrong.

Thanks for any input.. especially on some of the Catholic beliefs.

Mary

[lionovjudah]

Well I dont know if thats the right categories of each but I was talking with a young gentlemen tonight about God and different beliefs. Its interesting how many peope won't take a stand for what they believe in. Its almost like they want to say all the people are right, that as long as your not Buddhist or believing in some other god but believing in Christ Jesus and God that you'll be saved. But if you think about it aren't all three preaching a different gospel? Its interesting talking with this Catholic man, though he is a little unclear on what Catholics believe exactly, and often says I'm not sure haven't read that book of the Bible he is pretty set in his beliefs.

He says they believe that if you commit a mortal sin that you seperate yourself from God and thus won't be in Heaven. Whats the mortal sins anyone know? Yet they have some good points of doctrine that the protestants don't have. He admits though that his way is the hardest way of getting into Heaven, that its works and faith. Often refers to the idea that the Catholic church is the church of Christ, that it was past down thru that time. Is that true at all? Was that church the first church so to say? Also I dont get how people can go around saying its what they do and God.. don't they realize it brings God more glory to say its ALL Him and none of us? Yet they are set in their ways..

Haha I told him go ahead and believe your hard way that its about works for salvation.. I'll believe my way and not worry about whether I'll be in heaven or not, or whether God loves me no matter what I do.

So you have the Catholics and all their beliefs, and maybe are very nonjudgemental according to Jason. Seem to be more accepting of little messups like getting drunk or what not than protestants. But then you have the protestants who says its faith, and your decision that gets you to Heaven. So its not works yet whether you accept or reject Christ. Which is still a work really. And often in that group one person is more spiritual than another, and if you mess up you feel unloved and that God is not pleased with you, not to mention judged by others.

Then of course you have the truth.. high grace predestinarian if you want to call it that. That salvation is all God does and nothing man does, that no sin.. no mortal sin what not will seperate you from God. That it is not your decision whether you are saved but Gods alone. This last one don't you think brings more comfort and assurance than any of the others? More love and grace of God?

But how is it that people get stuck in the other two? And also kinda curious how does one know which one is right? And should we as believers be telling these other two religious groups that they are wrong? Its easy for me to witness and speak the truth to an atheist or one who doesn't have a religion than it is for me to speak the truth to a protestant or Catholic. Why is that? And how do you tell someone who is believing in a God, using the Bible yet decieved that they are wrong? No one wants to hear they are wrong.

Thanks for any input.. especially on some of the Catholic beliefs.

Mary

Mary, the best bet is to go to a Catholic who knows. There are a ton of sites out there with this information. Dave Armstrong is one, and James Aitkin is another.

[Robert R. Higby]

A lot of these 'coming home' Catholics are deceivers. Their websites are full of distorted facts about what historic RCC teaching really is. All I'm saying is, don't believe half of what you read by people like Armstrong.

[Robert R. Higby]

The Council of Trent is the system of doctrine that Catholics must confess allegiance to at confirmation or conversion. So a study of that body of teaching in connection to the controversies that existed at that time is crucial.

The RCC claims that it has always taught salvation by grace through faith without works. Sorting out the meaning of this claim is very essential in understanding the true beliefs of that organization.

The RCC seceded from the Eastern organization 1000 years ago. Its claim to antiquity is entirely false. The line of popes before secession is constructed by naming the bishop of Rome going all the way back to Clement & assuming that Peter was his predecessor who personally appointed him. In actual fact there was no doctrine of Roman popery for many centuries. This is just one example of RCC lies.

[Robert R. Higby]

A very good study from 30 years ago on the subject. Please, no one tell me for the hundredth time that the author of much of this material is now a heretic--I KNOW and knew the man personally!

http://www.presenttruthmag.org/archive/XX/index.htm

[MCoving]

A very good study from 30 years ago on the subject. Please, no one tell me for the hundredth time that the author of much of this material is now a heretic--I KNOW and knew the man personally!

http://www.presenttruthmag.org/archive/XX/index.htm

Thanks Bob this and your other posts was definitely helpful! I look fwd to reading it here soon, its nice to have time over the holiday break to study theology and Bible more.

Plus will help me understand more of where my friend Jason is coming from... though I know its not necessary in presenting the truth but its just nice to know when he brings up points that I actually understand what hes saying... Thanks!

Mary

[lionovjudah]

A lot of these 'coming home' Catholics are deceivers. Their websites are full of distorted facts about what historic RCC teaching really is. All I'm saying is, don't believe half of what you read by people like Armstrong.

I agree Bob. But they are better than a non Catholic telling one what the rcc confesses most times.

Read the councils of the rcc mary from the beginning. This is the best bet.

[red beetle]

Here is the signature I use when I post at christianforums.net :

Evangelicals and Catholics together? What do Protestants have to do with Catholics? Do Catholics now believe in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia...? Of course not, they follow the pope, not the Bible. And all true Protestants know that the pope is anti-Christ.

Any person who is a supralapsarian is a Protestant by definition. Show me a supra who has not protested the teachings of Roman Catholicism, and I will show you one who is not a supra, but a liar.

The Westminster Confession of Faith, the greatest summary of Christianity ever written by fallible men, correctly labels the pope as Antichrist.

True Protestants hold to the 5 solas, what we have today are neo-protestants who need to be reminded what the Bible teaches, and the history of the Reformation.

I grew up with Catholics in my neighborhood, but my parents were not trained enough in the Scriptures to forbid me to be their friends. Only when I became a Calvinist did I realize it is forbidden to be friends with Catholics, or any who do not hold to the true Gospel. We are commanded to speak the truth in love to them, but we are not to fellowship with them. What fellowship does light have with darkness?

Red Beetle

[lionovjudah]

I grew up with Catholics in my neighborhood, but my parents were not trained enough in the Scriptures to forbid me to be their friends. Only when I became a Calvinist did I realize it is forbidden to be friends with Catholics, or any who do not hold to the true Gospel. We are commanded to speak the truth in love to them, but we are not to fellowship with them. What fellowship does light have with darkness?

Red Beetle

Was it lonely being alone then? Are you sure you became a calvinist and not Amish or a JW? You are taking this a tad too far if you wont be friends with a cathoic.

I am just asking for clarification on what you mean by friend. If you mean communing togehter I agree, if you mean being on the same softball team and having a burger and a beer, I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

[MCoving]

I grew up with Catholics in my neighborhood, but my parents were not trained enough in the Scriptures to forbid me to be their friends. Only when I became a Calvinist did I realize it is forbidden to be friends with Catholics, or any who do not hold to the true Gospel. We are commanded to speak the truth in love to them, but we are not to fellowship with them. What fellowship does light have with darkness?

Red Beetle

Yeah I'd have to disagree with this. I dont know where in Scripture it says we cant talk over quesidillas and a drink, or where we cant work together and laugh/talk together? I dont see where in Scripture it says not to be friends with Catholics or anyone who doesn't hold to our beliefs. Quite frankly I'd be very lonely without anyone to talk to if that were the case! My parents, my friends everyone here is not a believer that I know of. I see nothing wrong with being friends with a Catholic one of my closest friends Jason is. Lot of my friends are arminists. Quite frankly I like talking and being friends with some catholics, and pagans than I do arminists.. because they seem more open to my beliefs and arminists just want to argue with me.

I do know that the Bible does say that their is no fellowship with Catholics or those who are not believers, our brothers in the Lord. BUT fellowship I believe is different than friend. Even by definition they are different in some areas... take a close look:

friend /frɛnd/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[frend]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1.a person attached to another by feelings of affection or personal regard. 2.a person who gives assistance; patron; supporter: friends of the Boston Symphony. 3.a person who is on good terms with another; a person who is not hostile: Who goes there? Friend or foe? 4.a member of the same nation, party, etc.

fel·low·ship /ˈfɛloʊˌʃɪp/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fel-oh-ship]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciationnoun, verb, -shipped or -shiped, -ship·ping or -ship·ing. –noun 1.the condition or relation of being a fellow: the fellowship of humankind. 2.friendly relationship; companionship: the fellowship of father and son. 3.community of interest, feeling, etc. 4.communion, as between members of the same church. 5.friendliness. 6.an association of persons having similar tastes, interests, etc. 7.a company, guild, or corporation.

[lionovjudah]

Here is the signature I use when I post at christianforums.net :

Evangelicals and Catholics together? What do Protestants have to do with Catholics? Do Catholics now believe in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia...? Of course not, they follow the pope, not the Bible. And all true Protestants know that the pope is anti-Christ.

Any person who is a supralapsarian is a Protestant by definition. Show me a supra who has not protested the teachings of Roman Catholicism, and I will show you one who is not a supra, but a liar.

The Westminster Confession of Faith, the greatest summary of Christianity ever written by fallible men, correctly labels the pope as Antichrist.

True Protestants hold to the 5 solas, what we have today are neo-protestants who need to be reminded what the Bible teaches, and the history of the Reformation.

I grew up with Catholics in my neighborhood, but my parents were not trained enough in the Scriptures to forbid me to be their friends. Only when I became a Calvinist did I realize it is forbidden to be friends with Catholics, or any who do not hold to the true Gospel. We are commanded to speak the truth in love to them, but we are not to fellowship with them. What fellowship does light have with darkness?

Red Beetle

A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell into the hands of robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a red beetle was going down that road; and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. So likewise another beetle, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan while traveling came near him; and when he saw him, he was moved with pity. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, having poured oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said: "Take care of him; and when I come back, I will repay you whatever more you spend." Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers? He said: "The one who showed him mercy." Jesus said to him: "Go and do likewise." (Luke 10:30-37)

Please tell me I am wrong in this beetle.

[Robert R. Higby]

What fellowship does Christ have with Belial? (2 Cor. 6:15)

I have basic human interaction with Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists every day in my work. I even have lunch with some of them at times. But this is a far cry from the intimate KOINONIA of the New Testament! According to the commandments of God through Paul, I am not to eat with these unbelievers in any type of intimate and close fellowship that would imply or send a message that they are accepted of God in their unbelief.

[lionovjudah]

What fellowship does Christ have with Belial? (2 Cor. 6:15)

I have basic human interaction with Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists every day in my work. I even have lunch with some of them at times. But this is a far cry from the intimate KOINONIA of the New Testament! According to the commandments of God through Paul, I am not to eat with these unbelievers in any type of intimate and close fellowship that would imply or send a message that they are accepted of God in their unbelief.

I am asking for clarification from beetle if he believes the first part of your statement is against the command also Bob.

[rlhuckle]

Scripture teaches that we have no choice but to associate with unbelievers and false believers and to speak the truth to them (in love=obedience to God). However, we are never to forget that these individuals are spiritually diametrically opposed to the light that believers walk in (until the Holy Spirit may regenerate them). Regardless of our natural affections toward them, on the most important level of all--we are enemies and can never trust their most basic motivations--self over all else.

No problem helping, associating, giving, encouraging, teaching---big problem trusting or enabling them in their unbelief and promotion of false doctrine. It has been my experience that once they realize where I stand spiritually, it is they who do not desire association or discussion in the most important thing in my life--Jesus Christ; who He is, what He did, and those He did it for.

On the other hand, I have been accused of having an intellectual obsession for Scripture. This usually happens after I point out errors in their church doctrinal statements. I suppose they think I'm ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth. Oh well, that is in God's hands.....

[red beetle]

Was it lonely being alone then? Are you sure you became a calvinist and not Amish or a JW? You are taking this a tad too far if you wont be friends with a cathoic.

I am just asking for clarification on what you mean by friend. If you mean communing togehter I agree, if you mean being on the same softball team and having a burger and a beer, I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

NO, I will not be friends with a Catholic, the servants of Satan are not objects of our fellowship.

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate" 2 Corinthians 6:17.

We are to be friends with those that believe the Gospel.
You are not to have fellowship with pagans. When Christ sat and ate with the sinners, His purpose was not to have a good time with them, but it was to teach them the Gospel. The elect were converted, and the reprobate were hardened.

Friends, like our enemies, are to be loved, and loving one who believes in Roman Catholicism is telling him or her that they are the servants of Antichrist and that they must repent and believe the Gospel, that is, Justification by Faith Alone.

Red Beetle

[red beetle]

Yeah I'd have to disagree with this. I dont know where in Scripture it says we cant talk over quesidillas and a drink, or where we cant work together and laugh/talk together? I dont see where in Scripture it says not to be friends with Catholics or anyone who doesn't hold to our beliefs. Quite frankly I'd be very lonely without anyone to talk to if that were the case! My parents, my friends everyone here is not a believer that I know of. I see nothing wrong with being friends with a Catholic one of my closest friends Jason is. Lot of my friends are arminists. Quite frankly I like talking and being friends with some catholics, and pagans than I do arminists.. because they seem more open to my beliefs and arminists just want to argue with me.

I do know that the Bible does say that their is no fellowship with Catholics or those who are not believers, our brothers in the Lord. BUT fellowship I believe is different than friend. Even by definition they are different in some areas... take a close look:

friend /frɛnd/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[frend]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1.a person attached to another by feelings of affection or personal regard. 2.a person who gives assistance; patron; supporter: friends of the Boston Symphony. 3.a person who is on good terms with another; a person who is not hostile: Who goes there? Friend or foe? 4.a member of the same nation, party, etc.

fel·low·ship /ˈfɛloʊˌʃɪp/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fel-oh-ship]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciationnoun, verb, -shipped or -shiped, -ship·ping or -ship·ing. –noun 1.the condition or relation of being a fellow: the fellowship of humankind. 2.friendly relationship; companionship: the fellowship of father and son. 3.community of interest, feeling, etc. 4.communion, as between members of the same church. 5.friendliness. 6.an association of persons having similar tastes, interests, etc. 7.a company, guild, or corporation.

After reading this post, I think you should study 1st and 2nd Corinthians closely. You sound like you might even marry a Catholic if your not careful. You do know that it is a sin to marry a pagan, thats what Catholics are, they are pagans. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18

You need to study church history. You need to find out just how many people who believed in Justification by Faith Alone were tortured and murdered by Catholics. Ask your friends why they embrace such a murderous Bible hating institution. Those here who think it fine to be the friends of Catholics remind me of Berkhof and Van Til who used "common grace" as the theological basis for these types of friendships. Is that what is believed here, common grace? I hope not.

Red Beetle

[red beetle]

A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell into the hands of robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a red beetle was going down that road; and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. So likewise another beetle, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan while traveling came near him; and when he saw him, he was moved with pity. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, having poured oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said: "Take care of him; and when I come back, I will repay you whatever more you spend." Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers? He said: "The one who showed him mercy." Jesus said to him: "Go and do likewise." (Luke 10:30-37)

Please tell me I am wrong in this beetle.

Trying to use this as a basis for further fellowship with Catholics is not only a mis application of this Scripture, but it is downright sinful. You are wrong. We are commanded, by the 6th commandment, to love even our enemies. So should we find a man hurt, it is good to care for that man, even if it is the pope himself. However, when he is better you are not to go to the vatican for cocktails and giggles. You are obligated to tell that sinner he is lost and then you should preach the Gospel to that Antichrist the pope. You are teaching a common grace theology, and that is Roman Catholic doctrine, not Calvinism. Are you a Catholic?

Red Beetle

[red beetle]

What fellowship does Christ have with Belial? (2 Cor. 6:15)

I have basic human interaction with Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists every day in my work. I even have lunch with some of them at times. But this is a far cry from the intimate KOINONIA of the New Testament! According to the commandments of God through Paul, I am not to eat with these unbelievers in any type of intimate and close fellowship that would imply or send a message that they are accepted of God in their unbelief.

Good for you!
Sola Fide!
Red Beetle

[Brandan Kraft]

I have to agree that we are not to show unbelievers close Gospel fellowship. Can two walk together lest they be agreed (Amo. 3:3)? But I am also kind and pleasant with many associates who are often referred to in this country as "friends." These people are my neighbors and relatives. I love all of these people and would rejoice to see them come to a knowledcge of the truth. I will eat lunch and dinner with them on occaision, but there is no Gospel Fellowship with these people. NONE. There is no discussion of doctrine these people. They're simply not interested in the truth. If they are, they will come to me and ask. I NEVER refer to them as brothers or sisters. In reality I know my true friends are only Gospel believers. I can count only a handful of people that I consider to be close and intimate friends. Those that do not believe the Gospel walk in darkness, and when the opportunity is given and the situations are right, they will kill me. I am always aware of that and always keep my distance choosing very carefully what to reveal to them about myself and my family. - Brandan

[lionovjudah]

NO, I will not be friends with a Catholic, the servants of Satan are not objects of our fellowship.

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate" 2 Corinthians 6:17.

We are to be friends with those that believe the Gospel.
You are not to have fellowship with pagans. When Christ sat and ate with the sinners, His purpose was not to have a good time with them, but it was to teach them the Gospel. The elect were converted, and the reprobate were hardened.

Friends, like our enemies, are to be loved, and loving one who believes in Roman Catholicism is telling him or her that they are the servants of Antichrist and that they must repent and believe the Gospel, that is, Justification by Faith Alone.

Red Beetle

This is a terrible misaplication of Gospel fellowship taken to a cult like extreme . You have terribly mistaken the meek and lowly one. Who spoke with no guile. Again this has nothing to do with Gospel communion in Christ. My golf partner is an athiest. I speak kind words praying he may be converted. You are not a calvinist, you are not even biblical, you are plain wrong. And please, no more scripture to back up a perverted self righteousness.

Every scripture you mention is about worshipping in communion with the risen Lord.