Lcms

[MCoving]

I am not denying total depravity. I'm suggesting that to be made in the image of God is you are not made in ETERNAL sin. The elect are made only in temporal sin - that is their sin is covered by the blood of Christ already. The reprobate do not have that advantage! Believing the Gospel does not make you clean in the sight of the Lord. God's people are already perfectly spotless in God's eyes when they are born. They are sinful... yes. But God does not see them as sinners - instead He sees them as perfectly righteous in Christ. He looks upon them as He looks upon Christ - in HIS IMAGE. They have the capacity to know the truth BECAUSE God has determined for them to know the truth. Contrast this with the reprobate man. At birth, the reprobate is looked upon in hatred. This person's entire life of sin which is not atoned for is before God. He has determined each and every evil deed this baby will do, and He will mete out a pound for pound punishment upon this person at the appointed time. There is no capacity for this baby to know the truth because God does not see this person as righteous - because Christ did not shed His blood for this reprobate. This person is not made in the image of God, but in the image of SATAN in that Satan himself was created as an object of God's wrath. As a creature that would only know sin and nothing about God and His Grace. - Brandan

So these verses in Genesis are not referring to all mankind but just those who are Gods children? I dont know.. I've always been told that made in the image of God meant something that all humans were made as.. but I never understood what was meant by being made in the image of God. Whether thats physical or having a mind, knowledge, or what... I think this was one of those loop holes in my old religion. Same as when people said they heard from God or just knew what to do, like what College to pick, etc.. finding ways to know Gods Will stuff..

Gen 1:26, (KJV), And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27, (KJV), So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Mary

[Saint Nicholas]

Ok Dan, [gerhard]

You have asked many questions, and you have received many answers. Also there are plenty of threads for you to read as pertaining to the points you listed below in your profile. Now I am going to ask you a question. Below is part of your profile. Can you please state to the forum audience why you believe the points listed below are true? Share with us your soteriological understanding. Please, if you will, address each point.

Thank You........Nicholas




Soteriological Position:
Amyraldianism

Are some men elected to damnation?:
No

Is salvation offered to all who hear the Gospel?:
Yes

God wants all men to be saved?:
Yes

Jesus died for all men?:
Yes

God wanted Adam to fall into sin?:
No

Baptism is required for salvation?:
Yes

Assurance:
I don't know

Thank you again,
Nicholas

[gerhard]

Ok Dan, [gerhard]You have asked many questions, and you have received many answers. Also there are plenty of threads for you to read as pertaining to the points you listed below in your profile. Now I am going to ask you a question. Below is part of your profile. Can you please state to the forum audience why you believe the points listed below are true? Share with us your soteriological understanding. Please, if you will, address each point.

Since I have committed not to post anything contrary to Network positions, I don't see how I can comply with your request. However, since the thread is about how LCMS might differ from the Network on the practices of the ekklesia, here is the LCMS view where it might differ from the Network view.

Soteriological Position:
The LCMS upholds universal atonement (FOC SD, Election, Para. 28)
.

Therefore, if we wish to consider our eternal election to salvation with profit, we must in every way hold sturdily and firmly to this, that, as the preaching of repentance, so also the promise of the Gospel is universalis (universal), that is, it pertains to all men, Luke 24, 47. For this reason Christ has commanded that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations. For God loved the world and gave His Son, John 3, 16. Christ bore the sins of the world, John 1, 29, gave His flesh for the life of the world, John 6, 51; His blood is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 1, 7; 2, 2. Christ says: Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest, Matt. 11, 28. God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all, Rom. 11, 32. The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, 2 Pet. 3, 9. The same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him, Rom. 10, 12. The righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe, Rom. 3, 22. This is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one that seeth the Son and believeth on Him may have everlasting life, John 6, 40. Likewise it is Christ's command that to all in common to whom repentance is preached this promise of the Gospel also should be offered Luke 24, 47; Mark 16, 15.

Are some men elected to damnation?:
See above

Is salvation offered to all who hear the Gospel?:
See above

God wants all men to be saved?:
See above

Jesus died for all men?:
See above

God wanted Adam to fall into sin?:
The LCMS upholds God's will of Majesty in permitting Adam to fall (Bondage of the Will).

The same answer will be given to those who ask—Why did He permit Adam to fall? And why did He make all of us to be infected with the same sin, when He might have kept him, and might have created us from some other seed, or might first have cleansed that, before He created us from it?—
God is that Being, for whose will no cause or reason is to be assigned, as a rule or standard by which it acts; seeing that, nothing is superior or equal to it, but it is itself the rule of all things. For if it acted by any rule or standard, or from any cause or reason, it would be no longer the will of GOD. Wherefore, what God wills, is not therefore right, because He ought or ever was bound so to will; but on the contrary, what takes place is therefore right, because He so wills. A cause and reason are assigned for the will of the creature, but not for the will of the Creator; unless you set up, over Him, another Creator.

Baptism is required for salvation?:
The LCMS states that Baptism is necessary to salvation (Augsburg Confession, Art. IX).

Assurance:
The LCMS teaches that the Spirit bears witness (FOC, SD, Election, Para. 74, 75).

For the Spirit bears witness to the elect that they are God's children, Rom. 8, 16. And although they sometimes fall into temptation so grievous that they imagine they perceive no more power of the indwelling Spirit of God, and say with David, Ps. 31, 22: I said in my haste, I am cut off from before Thine eyes, yet they should, without regard to what they experience in themselves, again [be encouraged and] say with David, as is written ibidem, in the words immediately following: Nevertheless Thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto Thee. And since our election to eternal life is founded not upon our godliness or virtue, but alone upon the merit of Christ and the gracious will of His Father, who cannot deny Himself, because He is unchangeable in will and essence, therefore, when His children depart from obedience and stumble, He has them called again to repentance through the Word, and the Holy Ghost wishes thereby to be efficacious in them for conversion; and when they turn to Him again in true repentance by a right faith, He will always manifest the old paternal heart to all those who tremble at His Word and from their heart turn again to Him, as it is written, Jer. 3, 1: If a man put away his wife, and she go from him and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? Shall not that land be greatly polluted? But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to Me, saith the Lord.

[Calvinator]

These questions were not asked of my, but I wanted to chime in and answer these questions in my own words.

gerhard, your post comes across a little evasive to me.

Soteriological Position:

High Supreme Sovereign Grace.


Are some men elected to damnation?:

God has determined from the beginning who He would redeem and who He will not and the final resting place of the righteous and the final resting place of the wicked, who will have no rest. this decision is according to the will of God and purpose and has nothing to do any foreseen actions of the sinner.


Is salvation offered to all who hear the Gospel?:

Some preach a gospel that they will offer to everyone that they preach to. God does not offer the gospel to anyone. God gives the gospel to His elect and the elect don't have the choice to reject it. They receive it, because it is given to them. The reprobate reject it, because it is not given to them. The good news is the gospel and that gospel is that God has saved His people from their sins.


God wants all men to be saved?:

If "all men" is defined as every single person, then the answer is no. If "all men" is defined as Revaluation 5:9, then the answer would be yes.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


Jesus died for all men?:

Jesus died for all those given to Him by the Father.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


God wanted Adam to fall into sin?:
Yes. God has decreed all things, whatsoever comes to pass. God created man and put him in the garden of Eden along with the tree of knowledge of good and evil and told Adam not to eat from that tree. when God told Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, He made a law knowing full well that this law would be broken and that Adam would fall and all the sin and misery that would follow. God does with purpose. This was His purpose. It was more than knowing what would happen. It was His design.


Baptism is required for salvation?:

The only thing that is required for baptism is a steak in your favorite marinade before grilling.

[gerhard]

gerhard, your post comes across a little evasive to me.

I could only use official LCMS confessions in my response. I was pushing the limit by quoting Bondage of the Will which is included in the BOC but only by reference.

I may have oversimplified differences in Soteriological position and related questions but I believe that atonement is the key difference between consistent LCMS and Network confessors. We could go into more detail if you wish.

As far as baptism being required for salvation, I would have perferred a clearer LCMS citation. I believe, logically, a consistent LCMS confessor would uphold the fact that God will accomplish a baptism of water and of the Spirit for each and every one of the elect. However, I am limited to the actual content of the LCMS confessions.

On the subject of God wanting Adam to fall into sin. I believe your post has identified a subtle yet important difference between the LCMS and the Network position:

God has decreed all things, whatsoever comes to pass. God created man and put him in the garden of Eden along with the tree of knowledge of good and evil and told Adam not to eat from that tree. when God told Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, He made a law knowing full well that this law would be broken and that Adam would fall and all the sin and misery that would follow. God does with purpose. This was His purpose.

The LCMS confessor of Bondage of the Will would not presume to know God's purpose in permitting the fall but acknowledges that it is right:

God is that Being, for whose will no cause or reason is to be assigned, as a rule or standard by which it acts; seeing that, nothing is superior or equal to it, but it is itself the rule of all things. For if it acted by any rule or standard, or from any cause or reason, it would be no longer the will of GOD. Wherefore, what God wills, is not therefore right, because He ought or ever was bound so to will; but on the contrary, what takes place is therefore right, because He so wills.

[Jesus' Boy]

Amen Brandan: The only true God is the God of ABSOLUTE PREDESTINATION! What a comfort to the elect!.......I heartily recommend a book: ABSOLUTE PREDESTINATION by Jerome Zanchius............KK

I have this book, i'll plan to read it this week.

Chris
Jesus is Lord!