Lcms

[MCoving]

Okay.. so I didn't want to sidetrack the experience thread I think it would have some if I posted this there.. but there is a comment here from what Charles said over in the other thread. But I wanted to respond to some of Lutherans doctrinal statements.. I was reading over their website and there's just some interesting things. My point is Charles.. I can by ones doctrinal statement decide if its a church worth experiencing and getting to know.. Reformed Baptists and Prysberterians I would pry get to know the local church.. or maybe look online...

Anyways here's my response:

To make all these assumptions about what they do without having any real contact with them is slanderous. Those who engage in slander show allegiance to the devil who is the great slanderer.

I agree that having contact with a church is an important part of understand what the Pastor and people believe there. But also I find it tiresome to be looking for a church, because I grew up in one who preached that we choose God. So it is easier to look at a churches website and their beliefs, their doctrinal statement. I've done this even with Solid Rock where my brother goes.. but have found they too are just free will thinkers. There are specific Truths in the Bible that people here on this forum including myself hold very strongly too and certain Truths that tell of who God is. And if a church is not believing in the True God for ALL He is.. and ALL He does.. I really don't want to be a part of it.

And also.. you're statement I qouted about people making assumptions about churches without contact with them are slanderous and those who engage in slander show allegiance to the devil is absurd! I for one really hope you are not saying Bryan or anyone on this forum holds allegiance to the devil.

And about LCMS I was reading through their website and came across this: "Others answer this question by pointing to God's sovereign will: God himself predestines from eternity some to be saved and others to be damned. Lutherans reject this answer as unscriptural because according to the Bible God sincerely desires all to be saved and has predestined no one to damnation. "

Thats some pretty heavy stuff.. and to be honest I believe they are being unbiblical in saying that. God desires all to be saved? He predestined no one to damnation? So how does that coincide with electing some? That idea doesn't even fit with God being Sovereign and man no free will.

Hmm sounds like a mystery they cant explain.. a paradox? It doesn't fit together because its not biblical!
Also say "Lutherans also affirm, with Scripture, that those who are damned are damned not by God's "choice" but on account of their own human sin and rebellion and unbelief. From a human perspective, there is no "rational" or "logical" way to put these two truths together. Lutherans believe and confess them not because they are "rational" and "logical," but because this is what we find taught in Scripture."

I'm sorry but even just from reading those two things I already know I wouldn't want to be a part of a Lutheran church. I want logic.. I desire Truth, and knowledge.. Im not going to rest on a mere mystery. How can election NOT be about humans yet rebropation be about their OWN human sin, rebeliion and unbelief?? Isn't God the cause of all things? Sovereign over all?

wow! Just read this too: "Lutherans also believe that "a human being has some measure of free will, so as to live an externally honorable life and to choose among the things reason comprehends" (AC XVIII). "

Sounds like chosen but free idea. Man doesn't have free will in their salvation but in things after.. can read the whole response here: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2654 or here about the freedom of will http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2652.

Course they do have the idea that salvation is not conditioned upon the sinner, that God chooses people. But its not JUST about that... Well enough read.. looking over this I do not believe they are a biblical church. I dont know how you do Charles? I desire a place that believes that God is 100% Soviereign. They dont... still some sort of free will even if its not in salvation.

So anyways.. thanks for that though! it was interesting to continue to read through their doctrinal beliefs.

Mary

[MCoving]

I dont know if anyone cares but I found this interesting on the Lutheran site. So then they believe one is saved through baptism? So if an infant is baptized then they are saved? Am I reading that right?
also this link as well.. infant baptism.. interesting... http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2642. Lutheran church is that alot like Epscipal??

When I Was 'Saved'
Q. I recently was asked when I was "saved." Growing up in the LCMS I was baptized as an infant. I came to faith throughout my childhood and I continue to grow in faith everyday. I could not pinpoint one specific day I was "saved" or a specific time I asked Christ to come into my life. I know he lives in my heart. This person told me that it was a shame I didn't know an exact date I was saved. I want to know how Lutherans feel about the expressions: "The day I was saved," "When I got saved," and "I accepted Christ into my life."
A. You may confidently point to a specific time when you were saved, by pointing to the time when you were baptized. The Holy Spirit came to you in baptism, and according to Galatians 3:27, you were baptized into Christ, as it also says in Romans 6, baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ. Your sins were forgiven at that time and you received the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:38. You affirmed that in your confirmation.
Your having faith and being saved is not your own doing (Eph. 2:8,9), it is a gift of God. You did not "accept Jesus into your life," God accepted you through baptism and gave you Christ, and then you accepted Christ at that time. Saying that it was you by your own decision who accepted Christ goes against Scripture which in many places gives God the glory for your salvation.
Lutherans put the emphasis on God being the one who saves, and not so much on the exact time. Relying only on the exact time tends to point more to our action, and thus robs us of the assurance of our salvation. When it is God alone who saves us, we can be perfectly assured that we are saved.

PS: haha sorry one more thing! then I'm done looking at this site.. thought this was interesting.. We in and of ourselves are the ones who believe, yet God gives the power to believe. So what if one doesn't?
"All of this, of course, does not mean that when the Holy Spirit creates faith in our hearts we are not the ones who believe. On the contrary, Lutheran theologians have often spoken of faith as something that is "active" (fides activa) to emphasize that humans are active subjects in the believing. Paradoxically, then, faith is a purely passive act: God alone can give us the power to believe, while we are the ones who believe."

[rlhuckle]

Just for the record, I went through catechism classes in the Lutheran Church (ELCA) and was baptised and confirmed when I was thirteen. It was a social thing for me at the time. God did not begin to open my eyes to His sovereign grace until around the turn of the century (over thirty years later).

Although I returned home and was married in the same church I was confirmed in (fifteen years ago); when God really began to open my eyes to His word and I compared it to the doctrines I was taught there, the errors were obvious.

[wildboar]

PS: haha sorry one more thing! then I'm done looking at this site.. thought this was interesting.. We in and of ourselves are the ones who believe, yet God gives the power to believe. So what if one doesn't?
"All of this, of course, does not mean that when the Holy Spirit creates faith in our hearts we are not the ones who believe. On the contrary, Lutheran theologians have often spoken of faith as something that is "active" (fides activa) to emphasize that humans are active subjects in the believing. Paradoxically, then, faith is a purely passive act: God alone can give us the power to believe, while we are the ones who believe."

The Bible speaks of people believing and says that it is a result of God giving them faith. I don't see the problem with what they say here. As for baptism saving us, that's what 1 Peter 3:21 says. Faith is required for the sacrament to bear fruit. Some Lutheran and Episcopal churches share similarities but they are from different branches of the Reformation (German and English) and have different confessional standards so their beliefs differ.

[MCoving]

The Bible speaks of people believing and says that it is a result of God giving them faith. I don't see the problem with what they say here. As for baptism saving us, that's what 1 Peter 3:21 says. Faith is required for the sacrament to bear fruit. Some Lutheran and Episcopal churches share similarities but they are from different branches of the Reformation (German and English) and have different confessional standards so their beliefs differ.

Baptism doesn't save.. it is not required to be a child of God. Even in that verse it says this: 1 Pet 3:21, (NASB), Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It is not the removal of dirt from the flesh.. that to me seems like its saying the removal of sins, because that is what Christ did. BUT an appeal to God for a good conscience. Its about a good consceince not salvation. Its not saying saving you in the sense of salvation but saving you from a bad conscience. From what is on their site and the person asking them when they were saved what point they can look back to, they say baptism.. that means infant baptism is what saves them. Salvation is by faith alone. If one believes this they are ultimately saying that salvation is by faith and infant baptism. So if not baptized then not saved? And if baptized but no confession then not saved? Seems fishy to me!!

LCMS states this: You may confidently point to a specific time when you were saved, by pointing to the time when you were baptized. The Holy Spirit came to you in baptism, and according to Galatians 3:27, you were baptized into Christ, as it also says in Romans 6, baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ. Your sins were forgiven at that time and you received the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:38. You affirmed that in your confirmation.
Your having faith and being saved is not your own doing (Eph. 2:8,9), it is a gift of God. You did not "accept Jesus into your life," God accepted you through baptism and gave you Christ,

[wildboar]

Rlhuckle:

Don't think I'm some sort of strong promoter of the ELCA. I acknowledge them to be a church but they are a falling and apostate church. They are certainly not as confessional as the LCMS is.

[wildboar]

Mcoving:

I believe the verse is actually saying that baptism is not just removal of filth from the flesh--baptism is something much more than that.

John 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Without the presence of the Holy Spirit in baptism, baptism produces no fruit. But it pleases God to join the inward working of the Spirit to the outward administration of the water.

From what is on their site and the person asking them when they were saved what point they can look back to, they say baptism.. that means infant baptism is what saves them.

Salvation is a very broad concept. We are not saved on account of our faith. We are saved on the basis of the righteousness of Christ. We lay hold of that righteousness through faith and when God gives an infant faith he is able to benefit from the baptism which is also an instrument God uses for salvation. Also, keep in mind that this is a specific answer to a specific person's situation. I think they would acknowledge that others come to faith at a later date but infant faith is viewed as normal as it is in the Bible (Psalm 22, etc.

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

[MCoving]

Mcoving:

I believe the verse is actually saying that baptism is not just removal of filth from the flesh--baptism is something much more than that.

John 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Without the presence of the Holy Spirit in baptism, baptism produces no fruit. But it pleases God to join the inward working of the Spirit to the outward administration of the water.



Salvation is a very broad concept. We are not saved on account of our faith. We are saved on the basis of the righteousness of Christ. We lay hold of that righteousness through faith and when God gives an infant faith he is able to benefit from the baptism which is also an instrument God uses for salvation. Also, keep in mind that this is a specific answer to a specific person's situation. I think they would acknowledge that others come to faith at a later date but infant faith is viewed as normal as it is in the Bible (Psalm 22, etc.

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

I dont know how you read the website that has the doctrines of LCMS on there and not see that they put some sort of weight to baptism? At no time would I ever tell someone to look to their baptism for salvation!! That is exactly what was said there. I dont understand why you argue this point?? Your profile says this: Baptism is required for salvation?:
No . You state that baptism is not required for salvation. However, the LCMS very much believes it is.. whether thats before confession, after confession, whatever.. course there must be the Holy Spirit and faith with it.. but I bet if I asked them is someone saved without ever being baptized they'd say no. Right?

Mary

[MCoving]

Just for the record, I went through catechism classes in the Lutheran Church (ELCA) and was baptised and confirmed when I was thirteen. It was a social thing for me at the time. God did not begin to open my eyes to His sovereign grace until around the turn of the century (over thirty years later).

Although I returned home and was married in the same church I was confirmed in (fifteen years ago); when God really began to open my eyes to His word and I compared it to the doctrines I was taught there, the errors were obvious.

Sorry! I didn't realize you had another thread on this.. guess I must have missed that. Not sure how but I did, or I would have just posted my thoughts there.. now we have two threads! whoopsie!

Mary

[wildboar]

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2607

Q. Can you please clarify the Lutheran view of baptism and what is its purpose? Does the child become a Christian when baptized?
A. Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Baptism, we believe, is one of the miraculous means of grace (together with God's written and spoken Word) through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person's heart (see Matt. 28:18-20; Acts 2:38; John 3:5-7; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Titus 3:5-6; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12:13). This faith needs to be fed and nurtured by God's Word (Matt. 28:18-20), or it will die.
Although we do not claim to understand how this happens or how it is possible, we believe (because of what the Bible says about Baptism) that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. This faith cannot yet, of course, be expressed or articulated, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Titus 3:5-6; Matt. 18:6; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim. 3:15).
Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthen faith in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood.
The LCMS does not believe that baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. The thief on the cross was saved (apparently without baptism), as were all true believers in the Old Testament era. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power or the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God). Still, baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has his precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere "ritual" or "symbol," but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.

[MCoving]

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2607

Okay so one other thing then.. do they believe that all babies who are baptized recieve faith?? 'Cause it says this: "Although we do not claim to understand how this happens or how it is possible, we believe (because of what the Bible says about Baptism) that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. "

Thanks for pointing some of those things out! Though I still kinda disagree that Lutherans are pry not the best biblical church to go to.. I understand a little more of their beliefs.

Mary

[rlhuckle]

Rlhuckle:

Don't think I'm some sort of strong promoter of the ELCA. I acknowledge them to be a church but they are a falling and apostate church. They are certainly not as confessional as the LCMS is.

I heartily agree; however, one of the things they do teach about is the LCMS's holding to some RCC views on the sacraments, baptism and ecclesiastical authority. As I said earlier, Galatians speaks in regard to those who add these things to the gospel.

[wildboar]

Okay so one other thing then.. do they believe that all babies who are baptized recieve faith?? 'Cause it says this: "Although we do not claim to understand how this happens or how it is possible, we believe (because of what the Bible says about Baptism) that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. "

Not in every instance, but they do believe that God often does give faith at baptism.

I heartily agree; however, one of the things they do teach about is the LCMS's holding to some RCC views on the sacraments, baptism and ecclesiastical authority. As I said earlier, Galatians speaks in regard to those who add these things to the gospel.

Their views on all these issues differ from the RCC.

[wildboar]

Here are a couple other articles that people might find helpful in understanding the Lutheran position:

Q. Here is an excerpt from your web site: Baptism is "enough" for salvation in that it contains all the blessings of salvation that God himself has attached to it; these blessings are received, however, only by those who cling in faith--which itself is a gift of God!--to the words and promises attached to baptism. Shouldn't it be the other way around--FAITH is "enough" for salvation and your blessings come from your personal faith and trust in the Lord. Your whole life should demonstrate your faith. Baptism is an act of obedience to God and shouldn't be tied to salvation in such a manner that it seems that we would earn salvation by baptism. Why does the Lutheran Faith teach baptism=salvation and neglect the fact that salvation comes from faith by grace which is manifested in our actions?

A. We appreciate your comments and are grateful for the opportunity to comment on the Lutheran understanding of what the Scriptures teach concerning Baptism--a position sometimes not well understood.

First of all, central to everything that Lutherans teach is the good news that we are, in the words of St. Paul, saved "by grace...through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). The central principle of the Lutheran Reformation is that we are saved "by grace alone, through faith alone, for the sake of Christ alone. Faith in Christ by which we are saved is conveyed to us through the Gospel, as again Paul teaches, "faith comes from hearing the message, and message is heard through the word of Christ" (Rom. 10:17). That is to say, the Gospel is the vehicle or means through which God by His Spirit works faith (Rom. 1:16-17). Faith does not come, as we might say today, "out of thin air." God uses His divinely appointed means to impart to us the forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation.

We also believe on the basis of what the Scriptures say concerning baptism throughout the New Testament that it is a means through which God conveys His saving grace. Lutheran theologians therefore often speak of baptism as "visible Gospel." God (not human beings) has instituted baptism (Matt. 28:18-20). He has attached His powerful Gospel to the visible element of water and through this, His work, He unites us with Christ and imparts to us His saving blessings. That Baptism is God's means of imparting His grace is especially clear in Romans 6. St. Paul writes, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were bured there with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father we too might walk in newness of life." The Greek phrase used here, "by baptism," is composed of the preposition dia with the genitive case tou baptismatos. Beyond dispute, grammatically Paul is speaking about Baptism as the instrument through which God incorporates people into Christ and His saving work. It is for this reason that Baptism, in Lutheran theology, is regarded as such a precious treasure.

To be sure, faith alone is the instrument by which we receive the salvation won by Christ. But the Gospel and sacraments (Baptism and the Lord's Supper) are God's instruments through which He engenders saving faith in us--indeed, a miracle. Thus, there is no contradiction between saying faith alone saves, but that this faith comes to us through means or vehicles. We rejoice, therefore, in the words of the apostle who wrote, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God...." (Eph. 2:8-9), a precious truth made known to us, as St. Paul further says, "through the Gospel" (Eph. 3:6).

If one holds that baptism is a good work of obedience done by humans, I can understand how one might think that Lutherans teach that faith alone in Christ is not enough. But this is to fundamentally misunderstand, in our view, how the Scriptures everywhere describe Baptism, that is, as a divine, not a human, work. We reject any implication that baptism is a human work, one that we do in order to earn salvation. On the contrary, we hold that the Scriptures teach that baptism is God's precious gift through which He works to impart His saving grace revealed to us through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who alone is our Savior. In a word, Baptism is a marvelous testimony to the unmerited grace of God.

[Highlyfavored]

Here are a couple other articles that people might find helpful in understanding the Lutheran position:

This is a weak attempt at best to justify that hanging on to baptism by faith is the conduit by which God brings regeneration. Any way you slice it or dice it, it's still baptismal regeneration.

What if someone is baptized outside the confines of the LCMS? Would they still agree with a person's regeneration if it happened before they were part of the LCMS or would they need to be re-baptized or take some sort of classes to be allowed membership?

Also, the "means of grace" references within many reformed churches is ridiculous. In every way and in every thing in the life of the elect, the grace of God is conveyed. The term "means of grace" usually seems to come before a statement of doctrinal error as far as I can see, and often times is tied to "common grace" which is also a load of bunk.

On the lighter side, I don't think most churches would ever approve of my baptism. It was done in a bathtub, and I was an adult at the time.

[rlhuckle]

Here are a couple other articles that people might find helpful in understanding the Lutheran position:

If one holds that baptism is a good work of obedience done by humans, I can understand how one might think that Lutherans teach that faith alone in Christ is not enough. But this is to fundamentally misunderstand, in our view, how the Scriptures everywhere describe Baptism, that is, as a divine, not a human, work. We reject any implication that baptism is a human work, one that we do in order to earn salvation. On the contrary, we hold that the Scriptures teach that baptism is God's precious gift through which He works to impart His saving grace revealed to us through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who alone is our Savior. In a word, Baptism is a marvelous testimony to the unmerited grace of God

Hmmm.. This is the same line of thinking that most of evangelical Christianity uses when they discuss the human act of "choosing to receive Christ" when they promote the doctrine of universal atonement. Amazing that so many people actually accept the double-talk on these issues. How many human works can be re-defined as non-works to justify doctrine? Many, it would appear.

There is a baptism of the Spirit which is a divine work (regeneration) and there is a baptism of water--which is clearly a human work no matter what anybody teaches. Much as those who impress the meaning "every living soul" upon the word cosmos regardless of context, it would appear that this teaching impresses "water" upon the word baptismo regardless of context.

[MCoving]

The article said this "That Baptism is God's means of imparting His grace". I believe that's wrong, Gods grace is imparted to a believer in their life when He first opens their eyes.. Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now am found..." God's grace actually in an eternal sense was imparted to us along with Christ's righteousness before the world began.. maybe. So what.. does God impart some of His grace at the time of faith and the rest at baptism and the Lords Supper??

And the article says this "To be sure, faith alone is the instrument by which we receive the salvation won by Christ. But the Gospel and sacraments (Baptism and the Lord's Supper) are God's instruments through which He engenders saving faith in us--indeed, a miracle."
Umm.. do ya see the BUT there!!! They say yeah its by faith alone that we receive the salvation by Christ BUT.. but the Gospel AND sacraments are God's instruments in bringing about faith. Its NOT faith alone if someone puts a BUT after that sentence!! Its faith and the sacraments.

Also to me baptism is just an outward testimony of you're faith in Christ. Baptism doesn't impart anything to us... God doesn't use baptism to impart more of His grace to us. Man I was baptized as a baby in an episcipal church, which when I went to the Baptist church didn't mean much to me.. so I was baptized again as a teenager. And right now.. I know those two times were when I was following a false teaching.. they didn't mean a thing.. God didn't impart any Grace to me then or any knowledge or blessing, it meant nothing to Him it was just a religious act. So when LCMS speaks of infant baptism.. it does nothing. There is no grace imparted to them then.

In conclusion to all of this because I know its been talked about over and over... LCMS just does a good job at being deceptive.. they use all the right language.. but when it comes down to the nitty gritty they believe in Faith AND SOMETHING ELSE... the something else is baptism and lords supper.

Mary

[MCoving]

I forgot to add this.. I was looking thru the Scriptures and found these verses interesting:

Also I found with baptism all these people were baptized after believing and repenting of their sins. It was an outward expression, it was something they wanted to do.. as they had asked Paul I believe in Acts what do we do? They weren't baptized as infants..

Acts 11 tells of Peter going to the Gentiles and how they had believed and received the Holy Spirit. There's nothing here about water baptism like before the people were repenting then being baptized.. here the Gentiles were never baptized after repenting but Peter does say this: 15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
There's nothing here that implies these men had to be baptized to receive the blessings of Grace from God.. that baptism is a means to grace isn't even implied here.. but Faith alone.

Luke 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mk 1:8, (NASB), "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
Is not John saying here that he baptizes with water.. but the Lord baptizes with the Holy Spirit? So is not the means of grace as you say.. by faith? by the Holy Spirit being imparted to Gods believers? Man baptized with water.. but the Lord baptizes with the Holy Spirit. For it says I baptized with water.. BUT He, God will baptize you with the Spirit. Doesn't say Spirit and water.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Here in 1 Cor 12 they are talking about the baptism of the Spirit. So baptism in the Bible doesnt always mean by water.

Mk 1:4, (NASB), John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Also in that verse it talks about baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Do ya think it was really the water which was most important at that time, or where the people's hearts were? Their faith that was the key.. that John was teaching them about repentance and the forgiveness of sins. John was using water but He said that Jesus would use the Spirit. So.. if we take your terminoloy the means of grace is the Spirit not water baptism.

As I was reading I also read this.. which I thought was interesting.. people talk about the Lord Supper and breaking of bread within' the church.. but as I read this verse.. they went from house to house. They pry had one temple that people could gather at.. but I bet some couldn't make that long journey much. Maybe? I dont know much about history..
Acts 2:46,47
46
Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Okay.. so sorry if this thread kinda got side tracked into talking about sacraments I know its been discussed over and over.. but I dont think I ever understood much.. so I liked this opportunity of figuring out what the Bible said. And learned something knew.. that the people in Acts broke bread from house to house.

Mary

[wildboar]

This is a weak attempt at best to justify that hanging on to baptism by faith is the conduit by which God brings regeneration. Any way you slice it or dice it, it's still baptismal regeneration.

What if someone is baptized outside the confines of the LCMS? Would they still agree with a person's regeneration if it happened before they were part of the LCMS or would they need to be re-baptized or take some sort of classes to be allowed membership?

I'm not denying that it's baptismal regeneration. They just don't see it as a four letter word the way that you do.

They would not confine it to those baptized in the LCMS, I'm pretty sure they would say the same about any Trinitarian baptism performed. I'm pretty sure the person would be expected to take classes prior to membership in order to make sure there is substantial doctrinal agreement.

Hmmm.. This is the same line of thinking that most of evangelical Christianity uses when they discuss the human act of "choosing to receive Christ" when they promote the doctrine of universal atonement. Amazing that so many people actually accept the double-talk on these issues. How many human works can be re-defined as non-works to justify doctrine? Many, it would appear.

There is a baptism of the Spirit which is a divine work (regeneration) and there is a baptism of water--which is clearly a human work no matter what anybody teaches. Much as those who impress the meaning "every living soul" upon the word cosmos regardless of context, it would appear that this teaching impresses "water" upon the word baptismo regardless of context.

I'm not saying that they always occur simultaneously, but why assume that the inward and outward actions don't? There is a reason Christ commands things. He's not trying to trick us.

The article said this "That Baptism is God's means of imparting His grace". I believe that's wrong, Gods grace is imparted to a believer in their life when He first opens their eyes.. Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now am found..." God's grace actually in an eternal sense was imparted to us along with Christ's righteousness before the world began.. maybe. So what.. does God impart some of His grace at the time of faith and the rest at baptism and the Lords Supper??

So you believe that God's grace is only given once? That God never gives more grace as the Scriptures teach? Does God ever work faith in a person while hearing the preaching of the Word? If so, why not in conjunction with the administration of the sacraments?

Also I found with baptism all these people were baptized after believing and repenting of their sins. It was an outward expression, it was something they wanted to do.. as they had asked Paul I believe in Acts what do we do? They weren't baptized as infants..

The passages are dealing with people who converted to Christianity as adults. The same thing happened in the OT when someone converted to Judaism.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Here in 1 Cor 12 they are talking about the baptism of the Spirit. So baptism in the Bible doesnt always mean by water.

Why assume that the water and spirit are separate?

[MCoving]

So you believe that God's grace is only given once? That God never gives more grace as the Scriptures teach? Does God ever work faith in a person while hearing the preaching of the Word? If so, why not in conjunction with the administration of the sacraments?

Well actually I pry didn't say that right in my head I was thinking Gods Saving Grace.. Which is what the article was talking about not God's daily gracious acts to us. Like saving grace as in the first time one is converted they see that God has saved them and know that Christ's righteousness is imputed to them so they are made clean. That type of grace.. that is all comprehended at time of faith. But yeah God is always gracious to us, and showing us love and giving us things we dont deserve.
I just believe they are wrong in saying this: "He has attached His powerful Gospel to the visible element of water and through this, His work, He unites us with Christ and imparts to us His saving blessings."

Maybe for some people God can give faith to a person in hearing the Gospel and being baptized but the point is this is never mandated. The Lutherans make this out to be something one MUST do to recieve His powerful Gospel. That there is something "special" in being baptized, that one can't understand the Gospel fully without being baptized. Thats what I dont agree with.. I believe it is faith alone, nothing more or less. If one wants to be baptized I'm excitied for them, I believe its another step of them proclaiming their faith, but it doesn't have anything to do with saving faith.

Says again here in that article: "To be sure, faith alone is the instrument by which we receive the salvation won by Christ. But the Gospel and sacraments (Baptism and the Lord's Supper) are God's instruments through which He engenders saving faith in us--indeed, a miracle. "

You talk about baptism being a means of bringing someone to the Lord is that it? of saving grace? Is not people already brought to the Lord by faith?? They definitely say here that God brings saving faith by hearing of the Gospel, baptism and the Lords Supper. All three. So if one doesn't have all three or partake in all three then one is not saved?? And yeah it is baptismal regeneration... dont like when people add to faith.

Mary