Calvinism Examined

[universe]

"It seems incredible to them that there should exist such an intellectual curiosity as a real Calvinist, in an age of enlightenment like the present. As for seriously examining the arguments for Calvinism, the idea never enters their heads. It is deemed as out of date as the Inquisition, or the idea of a fiat world, and is looked upon as one of the fantastic schemes of thought that men held before the age of modern science."
-L. Boetner.

This is how I have thought about people who take reformation beliefs seriously, though I had not educated myself about Calvanism. Anyone else just learning about some of this too? I am reading the article on Predestination by L. Boetner in the library. Would anyone like to read through it with me a chapter at a time, maybe one per week, and then discuss it?

[Brandan Kraft]

The book universe is referring to is the book I have placed on 5solas.org entitled, "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Lorraine Boetner. You can find it here: http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=37

It is an excellent book, and I HIGHLY recommend it to anyone who wants a better understanding of predestination and how it fits within the Christian faith.

- Brandan

[Christ_†_Alone]

And I second the recommendation, HIGHLY.

[Odyssey]

I third it! A great book. I have it in my collection. I also have 'Calvins Calvinism,' and 'The Bondage of the Will' by Martin Luther.

The book that got me lookning into this whole doctrince was 'Putting Amazing Back Into Grace' by Michael Horton. A great book for beginners.

Grace to you,

jak

[universe]

It sounds like I am the only one here who has not read it. Is there anyone out there that would like to go through it with me? Well, I'm through the first chapter and will begin posting what I am learning/thinking, so even if you have read it, I would enjoy the feedback and your comments.

[Brandan Kraft]

I've read it about a hundred times it seems But I'll be happy to converse with you.

[Odyssey]

So will I.

Grace to you,

jak

[universe]

I am going to have to put off discussing this book for several days as we had 2 huge storms, one after the other, on Thursday and it flooded our property out. The rescue workers had to come and carry out my three children and help me get up to the road. We had around 18-20 inches of water in every direction. It was like living in a lake! Anyway, give me a few days to try to clean up the mess and I will get back to this.

[universe]

"Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."

This is from the beginning of Ch. 2.

So it isn't that God deliberately created someone to not follow him, it's just that he already knew that future and the choices that the person was going to make. Right?

[Brandan Kraft]

"Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."

This passage from the Westminster Confession is saying that even though God knows everything which will come to pass, His decrees are not based upon what He foresaw or foresees in the future.

[Lousy Chef]

Please dont quote the Westminster Confession. It's only mans interp of scripture. In a word, isnt it tradition? Yes, it's not scripture. Remember your own rules please. Thanks.

Please note, I'm not arguing with the administrator, simply pointing out where he's wrong!

[Christ_†_Alone]

Originally posted by Lousy Chef
Please dont quote the Westminster Confession. It's only mans interp of scripture. In a word, isnt it tradition? Yes, it's not scripture. Remember your own rules please. Thanks.

Please note, I'm not arguing with the administrator, simply pointing out where he's wrong!

If you had read this thread from the beginning, you would know that the quote Kermie offered was quite in line with the topic at hand.

If you would like to contribute to this thread, do so in context OF the topic being discussed.

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by Lousy Chef
Please dont quote the Westminster Confession. It's only mans interp of scripture. In a word, isnt it tradition? Yes, it's not scripture. Remember your own rules please. Thanks.

Please note, I'm not arguing with the administrator, simply pointing out where he's wrong!

Lousy Chef, you are being critical out of ignorance. You didn't even read the thread. I was simply trying to clarify what a portion of a book read. I don't even subscribe to the Westminster Confession 100%!

I'm sorry, but that was a fairly ignorant comment in my opinion. One more like that, and you will be banned.

Brandan

[universe]

["Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death." Chapter 2}

It seems that here they are saying that we were specifically created to either choose god and go to eternal life with him or not choose him and go to eternal death without him. But the last quote we discussed seemed to say that he created us with a specific purpose, without consideration of what he knew we would decide, but that the decision was still ours.

What am I missing here? Was the decision ever really ours?

universe

[Brandan Kraft]

The decision lies in the hands of the Sovereign God. Som men were created for wrath, and others were created for mercy (rom 9:23).

[EndureToLive]

Universe, you are not missing anything. God did not arbitrarily elect some for life and the rest for death. In His foreknowledge God knew them that would love Him. These He elected for life. The others were "elected" (for lack of a better term) for death as in His foreknowledge God knew that they would not love Him. God did not create Pharoah for destruction, but by foreknowledge knew that Pharoah would not turn to Him. God did not create Esau out of hate, but knew that Esau would not turn to Him. Both men were used of God for His purposes, but destroyed because of their own rejection of Him.

Romans 8:28ff
"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined...."

Q. - Who are those that love God?
A. - Those that do His will/keep His commands (Jn 14:15)

Yes, it does say they were called according to His pupose, but as the passage progresses we see that the calling comes after, and is based on, the foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:1ff
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the pilgrims of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Capadocia, Asia, and Bythinia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."

We know from 1 Timothy 2:4 that God's desire is for all men to be saved. The idea that God creates people for destruction on His own whim is contrary to this desire. And the use of Romans 9 to support such a contradiction further underscores ones misunderstanding of the doctrine of election.


Truth never fears a challenge!
Gareth

[Brandan Kraft]

Ahhh, the foreknowledge card. For a good article written by Christ_Alone that battles this false teaching, you can read it here: What is Predestination?

[EndureToLive]

Thank you Kermie, but because the article fits in with your theology does not make it fit into the Bible. Interestingly, you would teach security of the elect, while you can not truly know that security, as you will not know if you are really elect until the end. It will indeed be hard to, "make your call and election sure," when you yourself have nothing to do with it. I am not posting to argue or change your mind, but I am posting so as not to allow you to lead others into error unchallenged.

It was stated that the fact that God elected any for life is truly amazing grace. But not to those who were arbitrarily chosen for destruction. The article by Christ_Alone reminds me of some papers that I wrote in college. Two of them particularly, where I showed from a combination of scriptures and logic that

a. The Tree of Life is in the Bermuda triangle
b. Adam and Eve were identical twins

Niether of these is true, of course, but the use of scripture and logic was indeed flawless. Indeed, it is for this reason that God chose the foolish and unwise to confound the "wise".

God's grace is not irresistable, and His atonement was not limited.

John 3:16 -
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him will not die, but have everlasting life."

- This atonement was offered to the world and whosoever
- To believe or disbelieve is a choice

In addition, regardless of any rhetoric to say otherwise, the order of events in Romans 8 says that He foreknew then he predestined those whom He foreknew. It does not say, as Christ_Alone would teach, that foreknowledge came as a result of predestination.

It does not honor God to portray Him as a puppeteer.

Strength & Honor

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by EndureToLive
But I am posting so as not to allow you to lead others into error unchallenged.

You're not the first to post the opinion of the majority.

God's grace is not irresistable, and His atonement was not limited.

It's funny how Arminians can conclude that His grace in creating them, choosing their parents, and then predestininating grace of choosing where they are born is irresistable, but then swing full circle and make the audacious claim that saving grace can be resisted.

John 3:16 -
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him will not die, but have everlasting life."

- This atonement was offered to the world and whosoever
- To believe or disbelieve is a choice

I agree. But I think we disagree on who is the world.

It does not honor God to portray Him as a puppeteer.

It sure is easy to tear down a straw man, isn't it? I tell you what's dishonoring to God is taking the keys of salvation out of His hands and claiming them for yourself.

Strength & Honor

meekness and humility

[Christ_†_Alone]

It's quite revealing, the pride in man that refuses to submit to what the Scriptures teach on this - and at the same time - be so dogmatic about the opposite view, that is NOT supported by the Scriptures.

God's will be done - as it always is.