Part of the whore?

[Highlyfavored]

What do you think?

[Whammer]

There are some visiting teachers from the LDS church that stop by from time to time at my house and try to get me out of my "apostate condition" and I made a comment to one of them when they showed up again last thursday. This was it.........."I will say that in my thinking I have 1 thing in common with joseph smith's mind........he looked out and viewed all religions/denominations as abominations to God, I feel the same way in that respect."

I believe Jesus has His flock scattered throughout the world in various places and circumstances, but they are, and always have been, few in number (comparatively with the number of people in the world)
I believe that He also has some little assemblies of believers in various locations, but they are relatively small and hard to find at this time.

[jmgipson]

If you are speaking of the whore of Revelation, I don't believe that is how the Holy Spirit has defined this term. Jerusalem who rejected and crucified Jesus was the Great Whore. I don’t pay much attention to the comic books written by Tim Lahey or other futurists. I believe all scripture except the resurrection and the appearing of our Lord is fulfilled. We can’t wrestle scripture to apply it the way we want. My text proof is as follows:

JERUSALEM (Jesus Christ's own words ):

Matthew 23:33-35 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

NOTE IN REVELATION ABOUT WHORE:

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Keep in mind that two different parties can never be guilty of "all" of the same thing. Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of all of the blood shed on earth, and so was the whore in Revelation.

TOLD TO WOMEN OF JERUSALEM ( Note : Jesus Christ's own words ):

Luke 23:28-30 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us .

NOTE IN REVELATION:

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

JERUSALEM IS NOTED IN REVELATION AS THE GREAT CITY:

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified .

So when we read after this verse, through the rest of the book, whenever we come across a reference to "that great city", its pointing back to the Great City noted above.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

When we let the Bible interpret itself, by noting the references to Jerusalem as being identical to the points about the Great Whore in the book of Revelation, we see that JERUSALEM was that whore. However, this speaks of Jerusalem of Jesus' day. In THAT GENERATION, forty years later, Jerusalem was judged in 70 AD. Revelation is about that judgment.

So I believe that Jerusalem in the 1st century is the whore, the great city, etc.

John

[Saint Nicholas]

Whorish and adulterous religions have been with mankind from Eden, when Adam and Eve tried to cover their sin and nakedness with "FIGLEAVES".
These unrighteous and unholy acts of mankind, in attempting to appease God and expiate their sin and guilt, are spiritual attitudes manifested in and through (1.) False Gospels (2.) False Religions (3.) False Churches.

When trying to limit the identity of the Great Whore to ONLY some Historical Time period, a specific religion, or a specific church, we will miss the broader implications and meaning of scripture pertaining to this subject.

Their is only one valid litmus test that will uncover the whore, from her conception and embrionic stages in Eden all the way through the end of time and history. This litmus test must be "THE GOSPEL," (THE PERSON AND WORK OF CHRIST).

The person of Christ = Diety
The Work of Christ= Justification by an imputed righteousness. Received by Grace Alone through Faith Alone.

All Religious institutions Christian in name only, and non-christian who fail on these bedrock and foudational issues, would be part and parcel of the whorish kingdom.

All whorish religions do not have to be visably linked or tied together by some ecumenical treaty to qualify. They are all linked Spritually in rebellion to the true Gospel of Christ.

It is true that Israel is part the Anti-christ kingdom. But so is Rome and her ecumenical allies, The Orthadox Churches, Pagan religions, and all who pay homage to a false Gospel.

Well much much more can be said...........Later

In Christ
Nicholas

[jmgipson]

Whorish and adulterous religions have been with mankind from Eden, when Adam and Eve tried to cover their sin and nakedness with "FIGLEAVES".
These unrighteous and unholy acts of mankind, in attempting to appease God and expiate their sin and guilt, are spiritual attitudes manifested in and through (1.) False Gospels (2.) False Religions (3.) False Churches.

When trying to limit the identity of the Great Whore to ONLY some Historical Time period, a specific religion, or a specific church, we will miss the broader implications and meaning of scripture pertaining to this subject.

Their is only one valid litmus test that will uncover the whore, from her conception and embrionic stages in Eden all the way through the end of time and history. This litmus test must be "THE GOSPEL," (THE PERSON AND WORK OF CHRIST).

The person of Christ = Diety
The Work of Christ= Justification by an imputed righteousness. Received by Grace Alone through Faith Alone.

All Religious institutions Christian in name only, and non-christian who fail on these bedrock and foudational issues, would be part and parcel of the whorish kingdom.

All whorish religions do not have to be visably linked or tied together by some ecumenical treaty to qualify. They are all linked Spritually in rebellion to the true Gospel of Christ.

It is true that Israel is part the Anti-christ kingdom. But so is Rome and her ecumenical allies, The Orthadox Churches, Pagan religions, and all who pay homage to a false Gospel.

Well much much more can be said...........Later

In Christ
Nicholas

Nicholas,
I agree you can apply this if you please this way. This is why I qualified myself in the beginning, that if your are speaking of the whore in revelation, you must remember that scripture was not written to us in the 21st century. It was written for us. The letter of revelation was written to a specific 7 churches in the 1st century about the great whore jeruslem and God's divorce of her and her destruction. The end of the jewish age (Old covenant). I believe there is only one meaning of this scripture and Jerusalem is meant by it. It is only our (men) application in which we apply it to todays church.

John

[Whammer]

Nicholas,
I agree you can apply this if you please this way. This is why I qualified myself in the beginning, that if your are speaking of the whore in revelation, you must remember that scripture was not written to us in the 21st century. It was written for us. The letter of revelation was written to a specific 7 churches in the 1st century about the great whore jeruslem and God's divorce of her and her destruction. The end of the jewish age (Old covenant). I believe there is only one meaning of this scripture and Jerusalem is meant by it. It is only our (men) application in which we apply it to todays church.

John

There is alot in your posts I find agreeable John. In thinking on 2 other passages........Rev. 20:7-10 and 2 The. 1:5-10. I see alot of things fulfilled in Rev. that are also pictures of the larger scale of conflict that will happen at the 2nd coming of our Lord, so I see Nicholas' post as containing greater light comparatively as we near the coming of the new heavens and earth. There is also a hyper-preteristic tone to your 1st post in this thread that makes me a little uncomfortable John........IMHO

Anyway, in re-reading the 2 thes. passage, I was edified by verse 10 again.........when He comes on that day to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed.........and so my heart echos the words at the end of Revelation.......Amen. Come Lord Jesus!

[jmgipson]

There is alot in your posts I find agreeable John. In thinking on 2 other passages........Rev. 20:7-10 and 2 The. 1:5-10. I see alot of things fulfilled in Rev. that are also pictures of the larger scale of conflict that will happen at the 2nd coming of our Lord, so I see Nicholas' post as containing greater light comparatively as we near the coming of the new heavens and earth. There is also a hyper-preteristic tone to your 1st post in this thread that makes me a little uncomfortable John........IMHO

Anyway, in re-reading the 2 thes. passage, I was edified by verse 10 again.........when He comes on that day to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed.........and so my heart echos the words at the end of Revelation.......Amen. Come Lord Jesus!

In my humble opinion I am not sure you know what the term hyper-preteristic means the way you throw it around loosely. I can guarentee you that those whoever they are do not believe as I stated above:

JG said: I believe all scripture except the resurrection and the appearing of our Lord is fulfilled.

This my friend is not hyper-preterist. What makes me uncomfortable is when folks take the time text and wrestle them to speak of 2000 years later as though these folks whom the apostle was writing to knew exactly what he meant.

John

[Whammer]

(Old covenant). I believe there is only one meaning of this scripture and Jerusalem is meant by it. It is only our (men) application in which we apply it to todays church.

John

This is what I am talking about John, you restrict the scripture to speak any further than its primary meanings.......what do I mean??
Just as an example......look at Mat. 2:15, Out of Egypt did I call my son.....which is also a quote from Hosea, now the greatest meaning is that of the fulfillment spoken in matthew (Christ is the central theme of scripture), but it was also a reference to Israel being called out and led by Moses.....this is typical of preterists to do, force the scriptures into less truth than is there.

I didnt imply that you were a preterist who denied the resurrection and 2nd coming, I also am not saying that obvious statements of contradiction (pardox theology) are opposing truths as that would be nonsense to attribute multiple meanings to truths revealed in scripture in that way.

Look again at the 2nd coming throughout the NT.....doesnt it look like prior to our Lord's return there is much false doctrine/religion/teachers/prophets in this world?? This is the larger expression of the whore (yes the judaizers were the whore primarily, but not ONLY) who falsely takes Jesus' name on her lips........this is where we live today John.........and the words that applied then...come out of her my people......apply to us today. A much greater whore than just the 1 nation of the ethnic jews is here, it has swallowed up the entire world......I do not want to partake of her sins, I do not want to support her whoredom against God either, I have come out thanks to God's grace!!!!

[Whammer]

I also do not hold to any of the futurist/dispensational/premillinial garbage

[jmgipson]

This is what I am talking about John, you restrict the scripture to speak any further than its primary meanings.......what do I mean??
Just as an example......look at Mat. 2:15, Out of Egypt did I call my son.....which is also a quote from Hosea, now the greatest meaning is that of the fulfillment spoken in matthew (Christ is the central theme of scripture), but it was also a reference to Israel being called out and led by Moses.....this is typical of preterists to do, force the scriptures into less truth than is there.

I didnt imply that you were a preterist who denied the resurrection and 2nd coming, I also am not saying that obvious statements of contradiction (pardox theology) are opposing truths as that would be nonsense to attribute multiple meanings to truths revealed in scripture in that way.

Look again at the 2nd coming throughout the NT.....doesnt it look like prior to our Lord's return there is much false doctrine/religion/teachers/prophets in this world?? This is the larger expression of the whore (yes the judaizers were the whore primarily, but not ONLY) who falsely takes Jesus' name on her lips........this is where we live today John.........and the words that applied then...come out of her my people......apply to us today. A much greater whore than just the 1 nation of the ethnic jews is here, it has swallowed up the entire world......I do not want to partake of her sins, I do not want to support her whoredom against God either, I have come out thanks to God's grace!!!!

You are speaking of types etc. I am speaking of taking scripture that says:

Rev 1:1
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: KJV

Rev 22:10,20
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. KJV

Matt 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. KJV


When the whore in Revelation is spoken of as being judged and all that is about to happen, you wrestle scripture by trying to give this a primary and a future fulfilment. I see no justification for this by God's word. There is a big difference in talking about types and talking about this which John said was about to be fulfilled and then trying to say the same thing will happen 2000 plus years from then. I just don't see any scripture giving you justification for this. YES you can apply it to what you want in the future, but the scipture which was written for comfort to the 1st century church means exactly what the Holy Spirit was conveying to them.

John

[jmgipson]

There is alot in your posts I find agreeable John. In thinking on 2 other passages........Rev. 20:7-10 and 2 The. 1:5-10. I see alot of things fulfilled in Rev. that are also pictures of the larger scale of conflict that will happen at the 2nd coming of our Lord, so I see Nicholas' post as containing greater light comparatively as we near the coming of the new heavens and earth. There is also a hyper-preteristic tone to your 1st post in this thread that makes me a little uncomfortable John........IMHO

Anyway, in re-reading the 2 thes. passage, I was edified by verse 10 again.........when He comes on that day to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed.........and so my heart echos the words at the end of Revelation.......Amen. Come Lord Jesus!

Would you be speaking of this new heaven and new earth or another:

Isa 65:17-22
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. KJV

What new heaven and new earth are we awaiting? I am asking this because this also puzzles me.

John

[MCoving]

Hey just a quick question and clarification.. whats the difference between saying yes that mainline protestant churches are part of the great whore and the last one.. that one believes about all "churches" are decieved and part of the great whore? Are not the two the same or were you thinking something else Greg when you put this option?

I still am having to go and look through my Bible and some little research on being part of the great whore. But in simple terms I do believe all mainline protestant churches do not believe the Truth, this is evident from what their pastor preaches and their doctrinal beliefs. They are very decieved as well.. because many of their theological ideas resemble the Truth but are not it.. they have key phrases and understandings of some passages in the Bible but the meaning, and the overall picture they do not understand. They definitely teach a false gospel and a false work of Christ.. they may get His diety right but they dont have His work correct. I believe actually mainline protestant churches to be the worst out there because they are so deceptive... I know for me I learned from these churches and there was a lot of garbage yet also some things were correct, so its harder to weed thru the vines and tangles of mess... I think it would be easier without any of that, like if one had a clean slate and was taught the correct doctrine from birth or something.. Still doesn't mean a thing unless God opens their eyes. Hopefully you get what I trying to say because I think I just lost my train of thought.. oh well...

on to some studying!

Mary

[Whammer]

What new heaven and new earth are we awaiting? I am asking this because this also puzzles me.

John

I was thinking more of what Peter said.......2 Pet. 3:13

[jmgipson]

I was thinking more of what Peter said.......2 Pet. 3:13

So what is the difference between these two?


Isa 65:17-22

Peter 3:13

How many times is there a new heaven and a new earth?

John

[jmgipson]

I believe the biggest point I am trying to make is that you can call the church a whore or anti christ or anything else, but the church is not a part of the whore spoken of in Revelation. This is specific to Jerusalem and Judaism. They are the only ones who God held resposible for all the righteous blood of the prophets and saints. The 1st street baptist church in 2007 cannot be lumped in with this whore in Revelation.

John

[MCoving]

All I see in the Bible so far that talks about the whore, or the harlot depending on translation is in Revelations 17... I was reading it and dont quite understand it, I for some reason am just not at the place to really understand Revelations, it is tricky for me. But then again I did read it a second time and I pulled this from it that has some meaning maybe to the poll..

14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."15 And he said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.16 "And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.17 "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

It almost seems to me that there is contrasting here going on. Between the Lord and His chosen and the Harlot. Seems the harlot which sits on waters of people, multitudes and nations are those who are not believers. Says before Babylon the great which is the mother of harlots.. I think anyone who is not God's chosen is a harlot, maybe? When I look up these verses in interlinear for the greek text it says this under harlot/whore:

1. metaph. an idolatress
   1. of "Babylon" i.e. Rome, the chief seat of idolatry

So... it seems anyone who is worshipping an idol? Right? And if that is the case then yes mainline protestant church is part of the great whore, those who worship an idol.

Just some thoughts.. I dont know as I said I'm not good in understanding Revelations. I really just tried to think through this right now as typing it. Anyone else have more thoughts? Thanks John and Bryan for yours too.. it was very interesting to read.

Mary

[Brandan Kraft]

Hey just a quick question and clarification.. whats the difference between saying yes that mainline protestant churches are part of the great whore and the last one.. that one believes about all "churches" are decieved and part of the great whore? Are not the two the same or were you thinking something else Greg when you put this option?

I don't see much of a difference - I agree with both answers. I didn't even look at the other options when I voted - I just saw "Yes" and pulled the lever.

[Whammer]

I believe the biggest point I am trying to make is that you can call the church a whore or anti christ or anything else, but the church is not a part of the whore spoken of in Revelation. This is specific to Jerusalem and Judaism. They are the only ones who God held resposible for all the righteous blood of the prophets and saints. The 1st street baptist church in 2007 cannot be lumped in with this whore in Revelation.

John

If I apply your logic John, there will not be any hope for gentiles in the new covenant. Look at the things prophecied by Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Look at Heb. 8:8-12 in the NT, which is a quote of Jer. 31:31-34......is there any mention on anyone other than the houses of Israel and Judah?

Would the jews prior to AD 70 have been guilty for the blood of every saint from that time forward till the 2nd coming of Christ? Who will be guilty of all the blood of saints spilt in the last 19 centuries?

[Whammer]

I don't see much of a difference - I agree with both answers. I didn't even look at the other options when I voted - I just saw "Yes" and pulled the lever.

I did the same thing (ha ha) and that is why I put in my comments on post #2

[jmgipson]

If I apply your logic John, there will not be any hope for gentiles in the new covenant. Look at the things prophecied by Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Look at Heb. 8:8-12 in the NT, which is a quote of Jer. 31:31-34......is there any mention on anyone other than the houses of Israel and Judah?

Would the jews prior to AD 70 have been guilty for the blood of every saint from that time forward till the 2nd coming of Christ? Who will be guilty of all the blood of saints spilt in the last 19 centuries?

1. I don't understand your point? What is it that you are asking me and what logic is it you are talking about?

2. Who is Jesus talking to, Us?

Matt 23:35
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. KJV

He is telling the leaders this. Because they crucified the Lord and shed the righteous blood from Abel to Zacharias, they will be judged. They are called the whore in Revelation and the detruction of the whore was in AD 70. It is that simple.

John


John