We read in:Matthew 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."
We read in:Matthew 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Jesus' Will was not different from the Father's Will, but this still makes my brain hurt.
Jesus knew during His whole ministry what His fate would be and he testified of it continually. He knew that he must be sacrificed for the sins of His people. He knew who it was that would betray Him. His whole life was in complete accordance with the Father's Will as He said.
Jesus said in John 8.29: " I do always those things that please him "......................KK
I think this helps us to understand how, as a man, Christ relates to our infirmities - being tempted in all areas as we are yet without sin.Originally Posted by Highlyfavored
"Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so..."
I believe that the will of Jesus was the same as His Fathers’ as He sought the will of His Father (John 5:30) and He came to do the will of His Father (John 6:38). I do think we often overlook that He was human just as we are and He agonized over going to the cross, sweating great drops of blood, knowing what awaited Him there.
I agree with Scott too and I think it shows us the way of suffering and bearing our own cross.
Eileen~
"To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby
Jesus here may refer to his human (in distinction from Divine) will in terms of pure basic desire. Although Christ had no propensities or impulses to sin, He did have the desire to eat when hungry, sleep when tired, move away from a hot and smoky fire, avoid severe pain, etc.
The fact that Jesus prayed such a prayer was according to God's sovereign will; the fact that it is recorded for us was also. It reveals to us that the bitter cup of Christ's suffering stands in complete contrast to all basic human desires for self-preservation and avoidance of pain.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
The correct answer is yes. However, we should take this opportunity to carefully consider the doctrine of the two natures in Christ.
The will in Christ's human nature, although never in opposition to the divine will, is distinct from the divine will in Christ. Jesus, while equal to the Father as touching His divinity, is inferior to the Father as touching His humanity.
In His state of prayerful humiliation, Christ's humanity shrinks from the work of obedience the Father has given him to do. However, the human nature in Christ is always faithful and obedient to the will of the Father.
Gill on this verse
"nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt; which shows that the request was far from being sinful, or contrary to piety to God, or love to men, or to true fortitude of mind; the pure natural will of Christ, or the will of Christ's human nature, being left to act in a mere natural way, shows a reluctancy to sorrows, sufferings, and death; this same will acting on rational principles, and in a rational way, puts it upon the possibility the thing, and the agreement of the divine will to it. That there are two wills in Christ, human and divine, is certain; his human will, though in some instances, as in this, may have been different from the divine will, yet not contrary to it; and his divine will is always the same with his Father's. This, as mediator, he engaged to do, and came down from heaven for that purpose, took delight in doing it, and has completely finished it,"
The gospel is to be preached indiscriminately to the elect and to the reprobate: but the elect alone come to Christ, because they have been taught of God. - John Calvin
Forester07's Blog
Christ's divine nature is that of the Father's, there are not two wills only one. We all know the flesh has it's desires, that does not mean it's desire is our desire. Sinful flesh tries to dominate and usurp. Romans 7 explains the one will of the believer and the tug of the flesh. Christ did not have sin in his flesh. Therefore we can see the correct answer would be no, not yes.Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Last edited by Highlyfavored; 11-14-2007 at 08:01 AM.
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
If the human nature of Christ is always faithful and obedient to the will of the Father and never in opposition to the divine will, then how could Christ's humanity shrink from the work of obedience the Father has given him to do?
Rom 8:18-21, (NASB), For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Shrinking from an impossible task does not imply any disobedience to the Father's will. During His prayerful humiliation, Christ contemplates His assumption of the sins of the whole world. He recognizes His human will is insufficient to accomplish the Father's assigned task. He prays, not that His human will be done (which is, of course, always subservient to the Father's), but that the Father's will (which He possessed in full measure according to His eternal divine nature) be done. Only Christ's divine will personally united with His human will could redeem the world.
In his Two Natures in Christ, Martin Chemnitz cites Damascenus:
The divine will of Christ was eternal and wholly efficacious, possessed of the appropriate power. But His human will had its beginning in time and possessed natural and guileless affections. By nature, to be sure, it was not omnipotent, that is, possessing of and by itself the power to accomplish everything it willed. But, according to the nature of God the divine Logos, it was also made an omnipotent will.
I do not believe that Christ's human will in any way shrunk from the work of obedience the Father had given him to do; that was not my point. On the matter of obedience Christ's human and divine will were one. His human will shrunk from suffering IN GENERAL and that is all that we can conclude from this passage. Once such suffering is confirmed to be the Father's will there is no argument.
Christ, of course, had no doubts at any moment as to the Father's will. His prayer merely acts out the drama of human existence in such a circumstance. In life, according to his humanity, Jesus often did such things as asking questions of people when he already knew the answer, went through the process of learning outwardly when he didn't need to learn, portrayed himself as in need when he needed nothing, etc. In the same manner, Jesus in this prayer contrasts his natural human desire to flee suffering from His sovereign will and determination to obey the Father and Himself. He prays 'as if' the future might have more than one option (as we do in our humanity) even though He perfectly well knows it only has one and is perfectly willing to carry it out.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
I think the follow verse clearifies it very well;
[Heb 4:15] "... For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."
"Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so..."
Christ's divine and omnipotent will was eternally equal to the Father's will. Only Christ's human will was obedient to the Father.
Christ's human will was given all power on heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18). The human attribute of obedience never became a divine attribute of the unchangeable God. So it is incorrect to say that, in the matter of obedience, Christ's human and divine wills were one.
Definition of Chalcedon:. . .one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ. . .The disciples were asleep. Christ's prayer to the Father must be accepted at face value and not as a mere theatrical exercise. At times, Christ did not fully use His divine attributes of omniscience and omnipotence. "O father, if it be possible. . ." must be understood in that context.
Your point is incorrect, it is in the writ for all to see. Therefore Bob's point:makes perfect sense.
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Dan,
If Christ's prayer to the Father is to be viewed as a PRIVATE moment between the God the Son and God the Father, as most perceive it, then your perspective might be considered. But it was not. The sleep of the disciples does not apply here; the fact that this prayer is recorded in scripture is clear evidence that one of them heard Christ utter it in accordance with God's sovereign will.
Christ's divine and omnipotent will was eternally equal to the Father's will. Only Christ's human will was obedient to the Father.
But the two are one! I know that 'not as I will but as thou wilt' poses a problem for some, however, it is a perceived and not real conflict. Christ speaks as a man with a will to God--yet his submission to the Father's (AND his own as God) will shows that the conflct is not real.
The human attribute of obedience never became a divine attribute of the unchangeable God. So it is incorrect to say that, in the matter of obedience, Christ's human and divine wills were one.
I disagree completely. They were one if Christ was without sin; His human obedience fully harmonized with his divine will--just as our human obedience will fully harmonize with the divine will in eternity future!
At times, Christ did not fully use His divine attributes of omniscience and omnipotence. "O father, if it be possible. . ." must be understood in that context.
Again, I disagree completely. God by his very being cannot cease to be God! He cannot cease to 'use' His attributes; if God is what He is then none of that ceases by putting on a tent of human spirit and flesh.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
It was a moment of the deepest humiliation and obedience of Christ's human nature to the will of the Father.
There is no indication in scripture that anyone actually heard this prayer. Jesus may have told the disciples later or the author of Matthew may have simply written the passage by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. However, I agree that it was God's sovereign will that the content of the prayer be made known.
Christ's divine will and the Father's will are one. Christ's human will is submitted to the Father's will. So there is no conflict.
There is a difference between having a will that is in harmony with the divine will and having a divine/human will that actually exercises dominion.
God is not bound by your rules. The Son of God did not merely put on a tent of human spirit and flesh. Although the Son of God never ceased being true God with an omnipotent will, He became a true man with a subservient will.
Christ humbled himself before God as a man as Matthew 26:39 demostrates. He remained faithful unto death. God has highly exalted His assumed human will and given it all power in heaven and earth.
Last edited by gerhard; 11-17-2007 at 07:05 AM.
So did Jesus ever cease to 'uphold the universe by the Word of His power' at any time while incarnate? That would be the implication of saying that He ceased to use his divine powers and perogatives.
Truth has to be logical or else it degenerates into a bunch of paradoxical mysteries. God is not the author of confusion in this regard.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
For predestinarians, there is absoultely no conflict between the Divine will having dominion and the human will having dominion. All exercises of the human will in its own dominion are also exercises of the Divine will; God in His will has determined every action of the human will (which has a certain 'sovereignty' in its own realm of dominion). So, as Calvin once said, God is sovereign and man is sovereign. Man, of course, is also subservient being a creature--and there is no conflict or paradox between these two.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Re: The will of Jesus
I believe that Jesus had both a "self"/ egoic mind and the Father/Light/Spirit within his human being. When Jesus fell to the ground and made that statement: "Not as I will but as Thou will" 'I' refers to Jesus' self and "Thou" refers to Father...both being a part of the whole of who Jesus was while a man on earth.
I think all humans have this duality. "John1: 9 - "There is the True Light which, coming into the world enlightens EVERY man". Upon a humans physical death, perhaps the self ceases to exist and we return to live in the perfect will of the Father, His Light? Jesus said: "Let YOUR Light shine..." speaking to the people. Everyone has the light within.
Furthermore Jesus said: "Your eye is the lamp of the body, so then, if your eye be clear your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! I read this to say that there is light in every body. But if ones eye (mind) is full of fear/evil then there will be darkness in ones life. When Jesus fell to the ground His eye became a little clouded by fear of death, as is the case with every human being, and he experienced what the rest of us human beings experience when faced with the thought of death and leaving our body.
Just my ideas.
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