Questions about the church

[beloved57]

I think it is important to note the areas in which Gill fell short, which includes his defense of the 'early fathers' (See specifically his discussion of each one of them in The Cause of God and Truth). To not expose and renounce the gross theological errors of those men is a major shortfall. Gill only quoted snippets that he could use to try and vindicate their orthodoxy. His discussion of Justin Martyr is truly pathetic and doesn't honestly explain the nature of Justin's doctrine of free will at all. Gill tries to mold Justinian free will into his own (false, in my judgment) beliefs on the pre-fall perfection of demonic angels and Adam.

To miss the heresies taught by the early fathers means that the extent of the apostasy is very poorly understood. It extends to Eastern Orthodoxy, free will nonconformity, and free will Protestantism as much as to Roman Catholicism.

Amen bob,

I would imagine by the time these so called church fathers developed their theology the spirit of anti christ was far ahead of the game so to speak, with his lies.. even as early as the very apostles themselves , their ministries , he anti christ had begun..

1 jn 2

18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time

Can you imagine the increase of abominations since then ?

[Saint Nicholas]

This whole argument can be dismissed if we are willing to understand that the word "ekklesia" is a generic word, like "baptizmo"

The context of a certain portion of scripture that utilizes this word is critical to the meaning of which "ekklesia" is referenced.

For the sake of illustration the capitol "E" represents the elect body (Ekklesia) of Christ. The small "e" represents all local groups or denominations (ekklesia) that profess and use Christ as their figurehead. Within these groupings there may be some "E" present among them.

Christ death and imputed righteousness was for the "E" only.

The gates of Hell shall NEVER prevail against the "E"

God only loves this "E" group.

Those that are of the "e" variety who fall away, fall away from whatever truth that they carnally believed. But were never a part of the true "E", therefore they never fell from Grace, because they never were in Grace.

All those who are water baptized (infants or adults) may join or be a part of the "e" however they are in no covenant with God unless some of them were elected from eternity to be part of the true "E". All of those who were elected will be regenerated to see that they are truly part of the "E"

There are no promises made to this "e" except destruction.

All the blessing promises of God are for the "E" only

The Unilateral Covenant of God is upheld by God alone for the "E" only. Christ is the only mediator of this better covenant.

For someone ( Covenant Theologians ) to say that Elect and Reprobate who are members of a local group or denomination are part of the "E" teach falsehoods. The salvific covenant of God is for the "E" only.

I can go on with more comparisons, however this should be sufficient to explain my views.

Nicholas

[beloved57]

st nic says

For someone ( Covenant Theologians ) to say that Elect and Reprobate who are members of a local group or denomination are part of the "E" teach falsehoods. The salvific covenant of God is for the "E" only.

Hi st nic I agree with you , you made a lot of sense here..I would however suggest that its possible that the non elect can make a profession of the truth of the gospel intellectually at the most, I make my opinion on these two text:

2 pet 2:


20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

also matt 13:

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

It appears from these passages the non elect beleved the truth of the gospel without experiencing the true conversion..

what you think ?

[Eileen]

Hi Beloved,

I don't think that anyone could truly believe the truth of the Gospel and not be converted do you? I think the seed fell on ground that wasn't prepared, wasn't ploughed, still a stony heart and not a heart of flesh.

Wouldn't it be a false profession and therefore not any understanding, only words?

What do you think?

Eileen~

[Brandan Kraft]

I agree with you Eileen completely. If we define faith as simple belief, then there is no way that someone could believe the gospel and not be converted. Conversion is defined as believing the Gospel, isn't it?

[Robert R. Higby]

Mark 4:11,12 (MKJV)

And He said to them, To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. But to those outside, all these things are given in parables, so that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Any time the Bible talks about the non-elect believing, having a knowledge of the truth and rejoicing in it, receiving the Word, etc. it has to be examined in the context of the above statement of Christ. They 'believe', 'know', and 'rejoice' without a true understanding of what the gospel is. Just like the 6 blind men who think they understand what an elephant is by feeling one portion of it.

[beloved57]

hi eilene ,

Hi Beloved,

I don't think that anyone could truly believe the truth of the Gospel and not be converted do you?

No I dont , the key to your question is the word truly..

eilene says

I think the seed fell on ground that wasn't prepared, wasn't ploughed, still a stony heart and not a heart of flesh.

agreed , in contrast to the ground in matt 13

23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty

The good ground is the new covenant heart God gives the elect as in ezk 36:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The good ground is a regenerated heart right ?

Wouldn't it be a false profession and therefore not any understanding, only words?

What do you think?

I agree 1000 % But I do believe that they gave mental assent to the gospel..now remember the gospel = seed

The stoney heart hearer to me appears to have recieved the truth of the seed but only into a depraved mind still..

matt 13:


20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


I believe that his subsequent defection from the gospel made manifest that it was only a head knowledge of the unregenerated mind.

I believe its quite evident today that many have given some type of assent to the doctrines of the gospel but yet do not foresake their pet peeve false gospel as well.. To me thats not a true believer though they do acknowledge the true gospel..

For instance , how many you know that will agree that christ death and resurrection has accomplisehed and saved the elect of God ? And then that same person will turn right around and say that Jesus will save anyone if you believe in him ?

Some people come to recieve the true gospel as only an additional piece of higher learning , another opinion to be considered..But they dont foresake their former false gospel but just add the true gospel to their trophy case so to speak..

But to me it will only add to their condemnation in that day because they were exposed to the truth but never was given to repent from their false deluges..

[beloved57]

bob says

They 'believe', 'know', and 'rejoice' without a true understanding of what the gospel is.

I agree , they dont believe it to be the one and only true gospel ..but another attainment of spiritual knowledge perhaps that tends to puff them up..

Now I believe a person can give mental assent to the gospel without understanding it..but the fact they dont understand it proves or manifest they are still uncoverted , because a true conversion is brought about by a spiritual application of the gospel..

ps 19

7The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

I know that says the law of the lord but its applicable to the gospel as well..

[beloved57]

brandon says

I agree with you Eileen completely. If we define faith as simple belief,

That may be the problem simple belief may be too simple..because if you dont have a new heart its impossible to believe / understand the gospel. Its almost to say any body can believe the gospel its simple...even though I know you dont mean that..

[Brandan Kraft]

brandon says



That may be the problem simple belief may be too simple..because if you dont have a new heart its impossible to believe / understand the gospel. Its almost to say any body can believe the gospel its simple...even though I know you dont mean that..

Simple belief is not too simple. Either one has been revealed the true gospel, or they have some other knowledge up in their head. Simple belief of the TRUTH (not some other false gospel) is saving faith.

[beloved57]

darth says

Simple belief is not too simple. Either one has been revealed the true gospel

ah now you are talking son if its been revealed to them..big difference IMO in just stating point blank its simple belief..Because if you add the statement has been revealed you know God has given the understanding as well.. as in 1 jn 5:

20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding,[ revealed] that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

same as paul in gal 1

15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

i agree when its phrased like that..

When God reveals the gospel to the elect he or she will foresake all false gospels..

2 cor 10:

5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

[Brandan Kraft]

Well, i just don't believe one can "believe" the Gospel if it hasn't been revealed to them. Either one believes the Gospel or they don't. I don't think there is an in between on this. One who is not elect may assent to certain propositions of the Gospel, but they will not believe the Gospel for they will not know it in its fulness. Belief in the truth requires a knowledge of the truth.

[beloved57]

darth says

Well, i just don't believe one can "believe" the Gospel if it hasn't been revealed to them

I agree when its phrased like that..

[Eileen]

Well, i just don't believe one can "believe" the Gospel if it hasn't been revealed to them. Either one believes the Gospel or they don't. I don't think there is an in between on this. One who is not elect may assent to certain propositions of the Gospel, but they will not believe the Gospel for they will not know it in its fulness. Belief in the truth requires a knowledge of the truth.

And so we come full circle back to what you said to begin with, simple assent to the Truth is a true knowledge and understanding of that truth and is saving faith, amen?

Eileen~

[Brandan Kraft]

Amen Eileen. Amen. Let's not take away from the simplicity of saving faith.

[beloved57]

I think its good to always mention the word revealed because the Holy spirit does reveal the truth to the elect for christ sake..and its a simple belief or assent to a regenerated mind..


jn 16:

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.