The children

[beloved57]

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The writer of hebrews here speaks about the children which God hath given me and that these children are partakers of flesh and blood..

# 1. Who are these children

#2. How are they said to have been given ? Who gave them and where did they get them ?

#3. if they partook of flesh and blood does this imply they exsisted prior to, flesh and blood ? If so what is this other form of exisitence..

Thanks..

[wildboar]

I think the context gives the meaning quite well:

Hebrews 2:9-16 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. 10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying: "I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You." 13 And again: "I will put My trust in Him." And again: "Here am I and the children whom God has given Me." 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.

1. We learn from other passages that all who believe are children of Abraham, so it is speaking of believers.

2. He's quoting Isaiah Isaiah 8:18 "Here am I and the children whom the LORD has given me! We are for signs and wonders in Israel From the LORD of hosts, Who dwells in Mount Zion." God gave them to Christ when God gave them faith. By nature they were children of the devil.

3. No. In context that wouldn't make much sense. The purpose of the verse is to show that the Son took on a human nature to redeem us. The verse could just as easily be translated as the NASB does:

"Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil," The author of the Hebrews does use two different Greek words here with overlapping meanings. I think it would be quite a stretch to hang some type of doctrine of pre-existence on a verse such as this especially since that's not the purpose of the passage. The purpose of the passage is to tell us about what Christ did for us, the focus of the passage is not upon the children. It's assumed that the reader knows who the children are. Christ suffered humiliation for us and was exalted through his humiliation. Christ did something for us that he never did for the angels.

[lionovjudah]

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The writer of hebrews here speaks about the children which God hath given me and that these children are partakers of flesh and blood..

# 1. Who are these children

#2. How are they said to have been given ? Who gave them and where did they get them ?

#3. if they partook of flesh and blood does this imply they exsisted prior to, flesh and blood ? If so what is this other form of exisitence..

Thanks..

I ask that noone answer these questions until Darryl answers them himself.

[Whammer]

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The writer of hebrews here speaks about the children which God hath given me and that these children are partakers of flesh and blood..

# 1. Who are these children

#2. How are they said to have been given ? Who gave them and where did they get them ?

#3. if they partook of flesh and blood does this imply they exsisted prior to, flesh and blood ? If so what is this other form of exisitence..

Thanks..

Darryl, I am interested brother in hearing our thoughts on these questions as they relate directly to mine on your blog
Share your own mind on this thread you started, maybe I wouldnt agree with you, but I would better understand you

[beloved57]

wham says

Share your own mind on this thread you started

hi Wham, Well my first comment will be this, I do believe that the elect existed before they were manifested in the flesh in adam.. I believe this is true because we are the seed of christ , a spiritual seed as in isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

The elect are the spiritual offspring of christ spiritually..

I believe thats why he christ is termed the everlasting Father as in isa 9:

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I dont believe this teaches that christ is God the Father , but that he is a Father..Just as abraham is a Father of many nations So is christ as it pertains to His elect..

Now I believe scripture reveals a deep truth regarding the seed of a person , of a man..

Heb 7:


9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Here it points out that God viewed a yet unborn personage Levi as exsiting in the loins of his ancestor..

So what I am saying scripture is saying ? That God recognizes individuals and their exsistence before they exisit..

Just as God viewed and recognized the person of levi before he took on flesh and blood so like wise He views and recognize the persons of the elect before they take on flesh and blood..

This is the meaning of jer 1:

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

BTW I believe the above is applicable to the virgin birth of the Man christ Jesus as well..

For in vs 10 it says that levi was yet in the loins of his father , so likewise the elect were in the loins [ as seed]of their spiritual proginator christ Jesus The God Man mediator before the world began..

It says in vs 9 that levi payed tithes in abraham !!

At the least this wonderful truth gives foundation for an actual exisitence in Gods Mind of Levi contributing action to him..Of course this action is by probavly by means of union with his proginator..but the main point is that it has been revealed in scripture that God views His elect as actual entities before their actual flesh and blood exisitence..I believe both the hebrews passage confirm this as well as the jeremiah 1 passage and the romans 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

They are termed children though unborn..

Now the difference here however one child is perhaps the seed of the devil and the other the seed of christ or the women the church..

Your thoughts so far and any comments in regards to what is posted here by me I welcome sir..wether for or against..

Thanks..

[Whammer]

wham says



hi Wham, Well my first comment will be this, I do believe that the elect existed before they were manifested in the flesh in adam.. I believe this is true because we are the seed of christ , a spiritual seed as in isa 53:

Thanks..

Hey bud, okay, here are some of my 1st questions......there are alot of other points I would like to get to, but I dont want to make this confusing.

So you are saying...if I understand you?....that the elect had some kind of a spiritual (material of some kind maybe?) existence, outside of the mind/thoughts/knowledge of God....that He had Spoken them into to existence outside of Himself?
If so, were these spirits capable of rational thought? Sin?
You know that none of us the facilitate here are Traducians and that philosophy may play here into this line of thinking......not sure though.

Whoops, back to work, will look at this later

[beloved57]

wham ask

So you are saying...if I understand you?....that the elect had some kind of a spiritual (material of some kind maybe?) existence, outside of the mind/thoughts/knowledge of God....that He had Spoken them into to existence outside of Himself?

The elect had a spiritual exsistence not outside the mind of God but actually from Gods perspective..

It appears to me that hebrews 7 is teaching that levi exisited in the loins of abraham..

I believe the elect existed in christ , thats why we are told that grace was given us in him before the world began 2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

that He had Spoken them into to existence outside of Himself?

I believe the elect existed in the man christ jesus when He was eternally begotten Just like the elect existed in adam when he was created..

The natural man adam was created from dust of the ground

The spiritual man adam [ jesus christ] was begotten from the Father..From the very essence of Deity..The man jesus christ Not the Divine Son who was never begotten But always existed..

If so, were these spirits capable of rational thought? Sin?

I believe the children were in a spiritual seed form..And no more capable of rational thought or action as we are naturally in seed form in adam..

You know that none of us the facilitate here are Traducians and that philosophy may play here into this line of thinking......not sure though.

I had to look that phrase up brian please when introducing technical terms could you give the meaning ?

No I believe the each person is to be sovereignly concieved in what ever seed God appoints..Some God causes to be the seed of the women Christ and His church and some God causes to be the seed of satan..

There are two manner of people that God causes to be concieved by natural child birth the seed of promise and the seed of reprobation..

I believe light is given on that fact in gen 25

And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

God has decreed that the seed of the serpent enter this life naturally as well as the seed of the women..however each have two differnt destinies..

[wildboar]

Speaking as someone who supports the notion of traducianism (that a child's soul is inherited from his parents) I haven't a clue as to how traducianism is compatible with the things that Darryl is saying. This whole discussion reminds me of a sermon I once heard from a Baptist minister in which he tried to prove that 1 Peter 3:3 teaches that women should wear long flowing dresses which is to miss the point of the passage completely. Why not use these passages to teach what they are trying to teach?

The elect had a spiritual exsistence not outside the mind of God but actually from Gods perspective..

It appears to me that hebrews 7 is teaching that levi exisited in the loins of abraham..

Hebrews 7:5-10 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

He was in the loins in terms of geneology that does not mean he existed as a person at that time. If you were to take your reasoning to its natural conclusion then it would have to be assumed as well that women contributed nothing to personhood (as some in the ancient world thought, viewing them as nothing more than soil). But notice also the words I underlined. The NKJV uses "so to speak" and the NASB uses "so to say" and the KJV uses "as I may so say." There is a phrase in the Greek that qualifies what is being said. These words are not to be taken literalistically. The purpose of this passage if you read it in context is to prove the superiority of the priesthood of Christ, Paul (or whomever you believe the author to be) is not arguing for Levi's preexistance.

I believe the elect existed in christ , thats why we are told that grace was given us in him before the world began 2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The passage literally says before time eternal. But the purpose of the passage is not to teach us of the wonderful grace of God. In God's eternal decree he determined to save us before time began. That doesn't mean that we existed before time began. The EPA can set emissions requirements for the year 2012--that doesn't mean that it is the year 2012.

The spiritual man adam [ jesus christ] was begotten from the Father..From the very essence of Deity..The man jesus christ Not the Divine Son who was never begotten But always existed..

The Divine Son has certainly always existed but that does not mean he was never begotten. He is eternally begotten.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

[beloved57]

wb says

The Divine Son has certainly always existed but that does not mean he was never begotten. He is eternally begotten.

At least you do recognize something was begotten and it does not refer to in the context of jn 3 16 and 1 jn 4 9 it does not refer to the resurrection even though that word does in other places and it doesnt refer to the virgin birth even though in anoter context..However I disagree it belongs to the Eternal Son the Word as to His Essential Deity as you allude to but to the spiritual man Jesus christ as He was Hypostatically Joined to The ever Exsisting Eternal word..To suggest that Deity in and of itself was begotten is nigh blaspemy sir..


wb says

He was in the loins in terms of geneology that does not mean he existed as a person at that time.

Thats not what the verse says..Either I believe revelation or wb..

The verse says levi was in the loins of abraham.. I believe thats what it means..The truth to be conveyed is that there is a union that exsist.. a real live actual union..The union has to be betwen two.. The elect as the spiritual seed of the eternal God Man Mediator existed in union with Jesus christ.. It was at this time when Jesus Christ The God Man Mediator Stood for the elect in the everlasting covenant that we the elect were promised eternal life..

Titus 1:

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
The Divine Son has certainly always existed but that does not mean he was never begotten. He is eternally begotten.

Who do you think God promised to ? He promised to the God Man Mediator and the elect in Him Life eternal as a spiritual Inheritance for His people..This is what formed the basis of the Mediatoral prayer in Jn 17..

[Just Grace]

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The writer of hebrews here speaks about the children which God hath given me and that these children are partakers of flesh and blood..

# 1. Who are these children

#2. How are they said to have been given ? Who gave them and where did they get them ?

#3. if they partook of flesh and blood does this imply they exsisted prior to, flesh and blood ? If so what is this other form of exisitence..

Thanks..

#1 Christians / saved people, those who will be saved by the blood of the lamb. ( when all this is over )

#2 Gift by God the Father to His Son 'they were Yours and You gave them to Me.'

#3 No, only in the mind of God.

Thats how I would basically answer you. With this in mind.

'If I speak to you of earthly things and you do not understand, how will you understand if I tell you of the things of heaven.'

[beloved57]

Thanks Just grace.. as regards # 3



3. if they partook of flesh and blood does this imply they exsisted prior to, flesh and blood ? If so what is this other form of exisitence..

#3 No, only in the mind of God.

Hmm I think when something is revealed to be How God views something then it is real to God..Dont you believe that God gave to his Son [ the children] something that existed ? The elect were not just some phanthom will be exsistence when God gave them to His Son.. They were in The spiritual man Jesus christ when He was set up as God Man Mediator before the world began..The elects exixstence is as eternal as the God Man Mediator mediator exsistences , for we are one..


heb 13


5Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

6So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
7Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 8Jesus Christ[ God Man Mediator] the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

[Just Grace]

I can now see your post.

Chill out.

Geez.

Keep your feet on the ground.

When you can fly then fly.

Remember what Jesus said about us? Real slow to learn and how some of the deep things are beyond us.

Pray. Pray for everyone on this board and every other board. That we may abide.