New Heaven/Earth

[MCoving]

It was something Bob said in another thread that got me wondering about this. He said something about Jesus' government in the one world government thread. What would His goverment look like? Be like?

Personally I dont care much about government what will happen will happen, I just pray it doesn't go too bad while i'm still alive. But what I wonder about is the new heaven and earth. Will believers be in heaven then or on earth? When are believers in heaven or what happens when they die? Thats always been confusing to me, do they go immediately to Heaven and worship God is there something else first?

And when on earth then Jesus is the president forsee right? He is the dictator in that all things and everyone's actions are controlled by Him or God right? But that is much like it is today, Jesus as the ultimate leader over all things even the government. Yet today there is sin, when there is a new earth there will be no sin.

What does the Bible say about the new heaven and earth? Or Christ's reign on the new earth? What will it be like do we know?

I imagine it to be the perfect world, with the perfect leader... and us praising Him, living in peace, and with no tears.

Thanks,
Mary

ps: Dont know much about the end times, never quite studied just felt that it would happen how God wants it to. But sometimes its just hard to understand too.

[beloved57]

mary says:

It was something Bob said in another thread that got me wondering about this. He said something about Jesus' government in the one world government thread. What would His goverment look like? Be like?

Personally I dont care much about government what will happen will happen, I just pray it doesn't go too bad while i'm still alive.

I agree lol but I take refuge in the Divine Compassion in the most terrible of times..

matt 24:


21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

But what I wonder about is the new heaven and earth. Will believers be in heaven then or on earth?

I believe heaven will be on earth from such scriptures as rev 21:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

But at the same time sense we will be as the angels it may be that we will be able to go to and fro within the new heavens and earth.. 2 pet 3

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I know a change has to take place in me because I am scared of heights lol.. I imagine though if I am alive when christ comes that fear will be removed when he catches us up in the air..wow..

When are believers in heaven or what happens when they die?

I believe the believer goes to be with the lord in heaven above when they die..

2 cor 5 6

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
vs 8:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

However only the spirit of the man goes to be with the lord for now the body will not be given back to us until the resurrection morning if we die before the lord comes back.. But when we do get our bodies back they will be glorified like unto his glorious body..

phil 3 21

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

do they go immediately to Heaven and worship God is there something else first?

I believe departed belivers are presently worshipping God..

rev 6


9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The souls spake to God vs 10
God spake to them vs 11 :

and it was said unto them,

robes were given vs 11

also rev 4 appears to be describing more vivdly worship in heaven before the second coming of christ..

1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
8And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Another verse that seems to indicate that there is worship presently by the depated elect in heaven is heb 12


22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

I believe this passage and the rev 4 passage speak of the same things..

I am going to stop here but I am sure others have some good things to say..

[Just Grace]

Jesus = President.

Heaven is already there, long time before America.

Question should be, what happens after we die?

Peter talks about entering into the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Trust me there will be no Coke a Cola, no famous brands and political parties to go with.

No macdonalds or burger king, the price of petrol wont be a problem, no muslims blowing themselves up.

Sorry to joke.

It will be a place where righeousness 'dwelleth therein'

I think we have our heads too much in the world these days.

James teaches about 'being tainted by the world'.

[MCoving]

Just Grace Jesus would be more than president He would be ruling the Earth with God. Tho that is a good question will Heaven then be on the new earth, will both God and Jesus dwell amoungst their people in the new earth?

Also Jesus wouldn't be president because He doesn't just command He makes things happen. We are his actresses and actors, we do exactly what is written in the script, thus we do exactly what God has planned out from the very beginning of time. We each have our own personality and the way God made us, but all things work together according to His Will. Thats not like the president! lol

[wildboar]

The government will have the Ronald Reagan that only exists in the mind of Sean Hannity as President and he will clone himself so that he will be in all the other branches of government as well.

But seriously. Those who die in the Lord are pictured in Revelation as being beneath the throne of God awaiting the Resurrection. Heaven will come to earth and the earth will be renewed and we will live there in our resurrected bodies.

[Dorcas]

When you die, your soul is immediately "in heaven," communing with the Lord and all of the Elect who have gone before you. Hebrews 12:23
I use quotes because I don't know if it is a physical place or a spiritual "place" -- anyone have any Scriptures for that?

At the end of the world, Christ will return and bring his Elect with Him (1 Thess. 4:14). He will judge all souls and cleanse the world of evil. He will bring Heaven to the New Earth, and the Elect will dwell in the New Earth in new incorruptable bodies, worshipping God eternally. (Rev. 21)

God created us to be physical beings, that is why we will receive another physical body. Worshipping God doesn't mean sitting around and singing and adoring or whatever people think of. We will do all of the things that God created us to do, without the sin. We are creative beings, social beings, made to work, etc. (Gen 1) Remember all of life is worship, even now (we just do it imperfectly). So that's my take on it.

[beloved57]

hi dorcas

God created us to be physical beings, that is why we will receive another physical body

Maybe I am missing something , but I understand that the bodies will be spiritual in the resurrection morning..

1 cor 15


44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

God created us to be physical beings,

I believe God created the elect physical beings in time in adam however I believe we were in christ spiriually as his seed prior to being created physically in adam..

2 tim 1 9


9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[Dorcas]

hi dorcas



Maybe I am missing something , but I understand that the bodies will be spiritual in the resurrection morning..

1 cor 15

Yes, you are missing the rest of the chapter?

Paul is specifically writing to counter the kind of argument that you gave, that there is no physical resurrection. This is why he goes through the resurrection of Christ -- Christ had a new, physical, body that his disciples could touch and see. 1 Corinthians 15:12-19 compares our resurrection bodies to Christ's, and the verses you quote are in a list of of contrasts. You have corruption, dishonor, weakness,natural to describe the old body. Then you have incorruption, glory, power, spiritual to describe the new body. From the context, I don't think that we can interpret the word "spiritual" to mean not physical. I think that it means that your bodies will not be touched by sin, they will be in keeping by the transformation of the Holy Spirit. While our souls are already transformed by the Spirit, our bodies are no different than any other human being, subject to all of the corruption and death of sin. i.e. they are natural.

[beloved57]

dorcas says

From the context, I don't think that we can interpret the word "spiritual" to mean not physical

And vice versa I dont think it the body can be phyical without being spiritual..to me that would not fit in with the overall tenor of scripture as I just quoted..as we have born the image of the earthly so likewise we shall bare the image of the spiritual..

1 cor 15

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Thats just too plain to deny mam..

Also the fact that we will be as the angels may denote some type of celstial body..

celestial =
1) existing in heaven
a) things that take place in heaven
b) the heavenly regions
1) heaven itself, the abode of God and angels
2) the lower heavens, of the stars
3) the heavens, of the clouds
c) the heavenly temple or sanctuary
2) of heavenly origin or nature

So it will be a body adaptable to a celestial enviroment I believe..

Now will this be somehow tangible ? Well there is a passage that may give light,

jn 20

25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

lk 24 39

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


I jn seems to indicate that the spiritual body is tangible

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

So I see a case for the body being physical [ tangible] and spiritual..

[Prosthero]

Isaiah 9:7 states...

"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

Can someone help me here. Jesus also says that in heaven we will be like the angels, neither male nor female and not being given in marriage. In other words, there is no precreation of human beings in the eternal state.

Putting these two together: How can his government (kingdom) increase perpetually if there is an Earth ending destruction by fire?

Would not the Earth and mankind be required to go on into eternity perpetully to ensure that the increase ofthis kingdom does not end?

Again, it does not say that the government will have no end...it says that the INCREASE of this government shall have no end. So from where does this increase come if mankind is put out of business in some world ending fire?

Ecclesiates 4:1 tells me... "One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever."

This may be the answer..."The Earth abides for ever". But this does pose problems for the "Left Behind" version of eschatology. Any thoughts?

Jeff

[beloved57]

pros ask:

Putting these two together: How can his government (kingdom) increase perpetually if there is an Earth ending destruction by fire?

The word increase can denote greatness:

Here is the septuagint version:






6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.

[MCoving]

Hey! Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has posted. I learned a few things may have known before but forgot. Like how we will have a human body, how Jesus has a human body, and its just not some spirit or floating ghost like figure.

And good point about how even today we worship God with our actions and words its just not singing. I never thought of that before.. just thought that for eternity we would stand praise God with our words and singing and thats all we'd do. Coruse no one knows for sure, but really some good thoughts.

Thanks!

[Robert R. Higby]

Answers for Jeff (my beliefs on the subject).

Jeff: Isa. 9:7 states...
"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."
Can someone help me here. Jesus also says that in heaven we will be like the angels, neither male nor female and not being given in marriage. In other words, there is no precreation of human beings in the eternal state.

He did not actually say that there would be neither male nor female.
It is important to meditate on exactly what Jesus meant when He said "like the angels". I believe the Lukan version of the passage is most relevant in determining this: for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36 NASB).

Human beings who are subjects of the resurrection are made IMMORTAL and cannot die; this is why they are like the angels (sons of God). But the angels are NOT sons of the resurrection, only elect believers in Jesus Christ. It is only glorified humans who will be made new in the image of Christ the eternal Son of Man who lives forevermore in a resurrection body.

"Marrying and giving in marriage" is affirmed by Christ to not be a part of the eternal state; this is because it is a part of the affairs of mortal men. The Sadducees were assuming that God could not 'fix' the 'problem' in the resurrection of a woman having married 7 different men in mortal life. He simply states that marrying and giving in marriage will not continue in the hereafter. Nothing can be concluded one way or the other from this about the state of human sexuality in the afterlife; we may know for sure that whatever state we will be in is true humanity as God intended and there will be no process of finding and courting a spouse, picking between prior spouses, or giving away a son or daughter in marriage.

Jeff: Putting these two together: How can his government (kingdom) increase perpetually if there is an Earth ending destruction by fire?
Would not the Earth and mankind be required to go on into eternity perpetully to ensure that the increase ofthis kingdom does not end?
Again, it does not say that the government will have no end...it says that the INCREASE of this government shall have no end. So from where does this increase come if mankind is put out of business in some world ending fire?

There is no ontological destruction by fire any more than there was an ontological destruction by water in the flood. In the flood God purged evil from the Earth, preserved a remnant of humanity, and then established the Earth again. At His final advent, Christ will destroy all evil with His fiery presence, glorify his elect people by making them immortal in His image, and renew the Earth to its first and foremost blessed state that God has purposed.

Jeff: Ecclesiates 4:1 tells me... "One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever."
This may be the answer..."The Earth abides for ever". But this does pose problems for the "Left Behind" version of eschatology. Any thoughts?

We don't have any sympathies for the "Left Behind" version of eschatology here at p-net. In our estimation it is a joke and makes a mockery of true biblical teaching about what is to come!

Thanks for bringing up these issues! --Bob

[beloved57]

bob says:

He did not actually say that there would be neither male nor female.
It is important to meditate on exactly what Jesus meant when He said "like the angels". I believe the Lukan version of the passage is most relevant in determining this: for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36 NASB).

Very good point...I have a friend though I do not agree with him that believes all the elect in heaven will be men even our sisters now will in their glorofied state will become men. I believe he uses heb 2:

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Like I said though I dont agree with this..what you think bob ?


Human beings who are subjects of the resurrection are made IMMORTAL and cannot die; this is why they are like the angels (sons of God). But the angels are NOT sons of the resurrection, only elect believers in Jesus Christ. It is only glorified humans who will be made new in the image of Christ the eternal Son of Man who lives forevermore in a resurrection body.

"

Marrying and giving in marriage" is affirmed by Christ to not be a part of the eternal state; this is because it is a part of the affairs of mortal men. The Sadducees were assuming that God could not 'fix' the 'problem' in the resurrection of a woman having married 7 different men in mortal life. He simply states that marrying and giving in marriage will not continue in the hereafter. Nothing can be concluded one way or the other from this about the state of human sexuality in the afterlife; we may know for sure that whatever state we will be in is true humanity as God intended and there will be no process of finding and courting a spouse, picking between prior spouses, or giving away a son or daughter in marriage.

Does this statement leave room for the possibility of reproduction in glory..The reason why I ask because of the covenant promises of the righteous seed..

ps 112:


1Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.
2His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. 3Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.


Also in the beginning God told adam and eve to replenish the earth..prior to the fall i believe ?

gen 1

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

bob I would like your thoughts but of course all are welcome to answer this inquiry..

[Robert R. Higby]

I see no basis in the passages quoted to speculate about reproduction in the hereafter. The promised blessings to the seed of the righteous can just as easily be seen as fulfilled (as a basic overall principle) in this life.


Others may have different thoughts.

[Saint Nicholas]

[quote=Prosthero;55145]

Putting these two together: How can his government (kingdom) increase perpetually if there is an Earth ending destruction by fire?

Would not the Earth and mankind be required to go on into eternity perpetully to ensure that the increase of this kingdom does not end?

Again, it does not say that the government will have no end...it says that the INCREASE of this government shall have no end. So from where does this increase come if mankind is put out of business in some world ending fire?

I believe the word "increase" should not be interpreted in this context to mean humans increase numerically. But rather the word increase would denote the sphere, scope, and jurisdiction of the Lord's control of His Government.

Ecclesiates 4:1 tells me... "One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever."

The New Heaven and New Earth will abide forever.