The external call of the gospel

[Craig kennedy]

Reformed believers have invariably distinguished between the external call of the gospel (which is addressed to both reprobate and elect) and the efficacious, internal call of the gospel (which comes to the elect only).

If it is given that reprobation is unconditional (that is, not on the reprobate's foreseen wicked deeds and thoughts) then is it biblical to advocate an external call of the gospel to the reprobate to repent of their sins and to believe in Christ crucified? Why should they do this? Does God, indeed, want them to do this?

Your informed and well-considered comments will be greatly appreciated.

Craig

[beloved57]

If it is given that reprobation is unconditional (that is, not on the reprobate's foreseen wicked deeds and thoughts) then is it biblical to advocate an external call of the gospel to the reprobate to repent of their sins and to believe in Christ crucified?

Yes

Why should they do this? Does God, indeed, want them to do this?

Sure He does, but not in order for them to get saved but to manifest their salvation. Faith and repentance are evidences of the newbirth and the resurrected christ grants these graces to the election of grace:

1 pet 1:

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

acts 5:

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The gospel call is for the elect a summons to obtain a spiritual knowledge and to fellowship in their procured salvation..

2 thess 2:

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So the exhortation to believe and repent to the elect are actually the calling forth of those procured spiritual graces given with their newbirth to make their salvation manifest..

[Brandan Kraft]

Reformed believers have invariably distinguished between the external call of the gospel (which is addressed to both reprobate and elect) and the efficacious, internal call of the gospel (which comes to the elect only).

All men everywhere are obligated to obey God. The Gospel command is given to everyone. However, only the elect are enabled to believe.

If it is given that reprobation is unconditional (that is, not on the reprobate's foreseen wicked deeds and thoughts) then is it biblical to advocate an external call of the gospel to the reprobate to repent of their sins and to believe in Christ crucified?

We don't know who the reprobate or elect are just by looking at them. Because of that, we will give the gospel news to anyone who is interested in what we have to say.

Why should they do this? Does God, indeed, want them to do this?

Whatever happens, GOD wants to happen. That includes false religion. God ALWAYS gets what He wants as it is He who has determined all things. God's people will teach the Gospel to those people that the Lord has led them in providence.

[beloved57]

brandon says:

All men everywhere are obligated to obey God. The Gospel command is given to everyone. However, only the elect are enabled to believe.

what do you mean obey God brandon ? How are the non elect to obey God when it comes to the Gospel ?

[Brandan Kraft]

All men are under law to God and thus commanded to stop rebelling and believe what God says.

[beloved57]

All men are under law to God and thus commanded to stop rebelling and believe what God says.

I disagree because repentance is a covenant blessing for the elect alone and is only relevant with a view of remission of sins which the none elect are not included..

lk 24

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

God has decreed that the non elect remain under law..Thats there curse..

As far as acts 17 is concerned

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

This command is in line with the understanding that God is calling out of the nations , the gentiles a people for His name sake..

So again even this command is not universal inclusive of every singlr individual in the world even the then world..but to the election of grace who were caught up in that form of Idolatry there in that place where paul was preaching..


Now , the non elect are consquently condemed for hearing the gospel content and not believing that content...which makes God a liar..

1 jn 5:

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

The record is not a command to repent and believe , the record is the truth as to the purpose of who christ has saved and redeemed through his death..

The non elect dont believe in limited particular atonement , they dont believe in the unconditional sovereign choosing of some to salvation and some to everlasting destruction..

Not believing they are calling aGod a liar but God does not command them to believe..the command to believe is only to the elect:

1 jn 3

23And this is his commandment, That we[ the elect] should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

so brandon I disagree with you sir..in fact what you espousing sounds very close to duty ..but I know you dont believe that..

[Brandan Kraft]

I disagree because repentance is a covenant blessing for the elect alone and is only relevant with a view of remission of sins which the none elect are not included..

You disagree that all men are not under obligation to obey God? I agree EVANGELICAL repentance is a covenant blessing for the elect alone.

[wildboar]

Biblically we find many examples where the call does in fact go out indiscriminately and it always accomplishes God's purpose. The idea that if God commands something then people must be capable of doing it is completely Pelagian. The Pelagain argues if God commands x then man is able to do x. Those who deny that the Gospel call must go out indiscrimately argue that if man cannot do x then God does not command x.

Sin is real and throughout Scripture suffering eternally in hell is the result of sin.

[Brandan Kraft]

Basically, I believe the Gospel can be preached by anyone to anyone. The Gospel message that is preached to a reprobate individual further condemns that person. God's purpose in directing the Gospel message to certain people is not always evident!

[beloved57]

darth says

You disagree that all men are not under obligation to obey God? I agree EVANGELICAL repentance is a covenant blessing for the elect alone.

It has nothing to do with the gospel.. In fact God has decreed their disobediance..

1 pet 2:


7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed

My Job is to witness to the gospel of Jesus christ and not what the reprobate should do..

[beloved57]

Basically, I believe the Gospel can be preached by anyone to anyone. The Gospel message that is preached to a reprobate individual further condemns that person. God's purpose in directing the Gospel message to certain people is not always evident!

I agree , there is nothing wrong with giving testimony of the truth..

[beloved57]

wb says

Biblically we find many examples where the call does in fact go out indiscriminately

This I deny not because the scope of the election of grace is world wide..

as in jn 11:


51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

brandon says:



what do you mean obey God brandon ? How are the non elect to obey God when it comes to the Gospel ?

No man, either elect, or non-elect have the ability to obey God when it comes to the Gospel. God works within the heart of His people to draw them to Him.

[beloved57]

ug says

No man, either elect, or non-elect have the ability to obey God when it comes to the Gospel. God works within the heart of His people to draw them to Him.

So tell me something I dont know sir ?

God calls the elect to obediance but not the non elect..

1 pet 1:

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The gospel call is for the obediance of the faith..

rom 1 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

The regenerated elect sinner is called by the gospel into the fellowship..

His obediance is commanded to manifest his election..

The non elect are not called to repent the gospel has nothing to do with the non elect save increase their guilt for not believing the record of the gospel to the elect..

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

ug says



So tell me something I dont know sir ?

God calls the elect to obediance but not the non elect..

Here's something you seem to have missed, sir.

God calls ALL MEN to obedience. Not just the elect.

1 pet 1:
2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The gospel call is for the obediance of the faith..

rom 1 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

When you quote the word "faith" are you understanding it's meaning as "the content of christianity", or as "individual subject belief"? I'm not too sure what you mean by "of the faith".

The regenerated elect sinner is called by the gospel into the fellowship..

His obediance is commanded to manifest his election..

The non elect are not called to repent the gospel has nothing to do with the non elect save increase their guilt for not believing the record of the gospel to the elect..

This doesn't make any sense either...

[beloved57]

ug says

God calls ALL MEN to obedience. Not just the elect.

scripture please ..

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

ug says



scripture please ..

Oh, man... Typical.

I guess by simply asking "scripture please" you're going to expose some sort of biblical ignorance on my part? As if I am speaking of something I think "should be true" whether or not it's found in the bible?

As Paul turned the table on the Corinthians, I will now turn them on you...

What do you think Jesus was doing when He spoke in parables to the multitudes???????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????

Perhaps He was commanding them to "repent" (obedience) in a fashion which they WOULD NOT understand "LEST THEY SHOULD TURN FROM THEIR SINS"?

Why do you think the following is true?

[2Pe 3:1-4] "This, now, beloved, a second letter to you I write, in both which I stir up your pure mind in reminding you , to be mindful of the sayings said before by the holy prophets, and of the command of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour, this first knowing, that there shall come in the latter end of the days scoffers, according to their own desires going on, and saying, `Where is the promise of his presence? for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;"

These "scoffers" weren't given the same doctrine as the elect - the doctrine given by the prophets, apostles and Christ?

[beloved57]

Biblically we find many examples where the call does in fact go out indiscriminately and it always accomplishes God's purpose. The idea that if God commands something then people must be capable of doing it is completely Pelagian. The Pelagain argues if God commands x then man is able to do x. Those who deny that the Gospel call must go out indiscrimately argue that if man cannot do x then God does not command x.

Sin is real and throughout Scripture suffering eternally in hell is the result of sin.

Oh, man... Typical.

I guess by simply asking "scripture please" you're going to expose some sort of biblical ignorance on my part? As if I am speaking of something I think "should be true" whether or not it's found in the bible?

As Paul turned the table on the Corinthians, I will now turn them on you...

What do you think Jesus was doing when He spoke in parables to the multitudes???????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????

Perhaps He was commanding them to "repent" (obedience) in a fashion which they WOULD NOT understand "LEST THEY SHOULD TURN FROM THEIR SINS"?

Why do you think the following is true?

[2Pe 3:1-4] "This, now, beloved, a second letter to you I write, in both which I stir up your pure mind in reminding you , to be mindful of the sayings said before by the holy prophets, and of the command of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour, this first knowing, that there shall come in the latter end of the days scoffers, according to their own desires going on, and saying, `Where is the promise of his presence? for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;"

These "scoffers" weren't given the same doctrine as the elect - the doctrine given by the prophets, apostles and Christ?

You still have not proven your point ! Where did the preaching of the gospel call for every single persons obediance ?


God has ordained the non elect to disobediance yet you say He calls them to obediance...

1 pet 2:

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

God is not calling the non elect to obediance , in fact they are obeying His sovereign will by being disobediant..

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

You still have not proven your point ! Where did the preaching of the gospel call for every single persons obediance ?

Are you for real? Seriously! What do you think Paul was doing at the Areopagus? Who was he speaking to???? Did any repent???? Did any mock??????????

Search for a few instances where "logos" is translated "Gospel" - and think real hard about it... Maybe the "logos" of God is more than what you've understood it to be in certain instances.

God has ordained the non elect to disobedience yet you say He calls them to obediance...

Yes, as much as I say God commands men not to sin, yet ordains them to be sinners...

1 pet 2:

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

God is not calling the non elect to obediance , in fact they are obeying His sovereign will by being disobediant..

Okay, I'm getting frustrated...

Listen dood, you need to stop and think.

How can one be "disobedient" when there's no command to be obedient present???? LOL ROFL. That's NONSENSE. What are they "disobedient" to?

How do you know they are disobedient if no command was given? How do you identify them as "disobedient"? Disobedient to what? They were disobedient to the command that WASN'T given to them????

[beloved57]

ug says

Are you for real? Seriously! What do you think Paul was doing at the Areopagus? Who was he speaking to???? Did any repent???? Did any mock??????????

I suppose you are speaking about acts 17 ?

Well repentance was commanded because the abrahamic covenent was in force in that God no longer limited His call to the jews but now commanded His elect to repent every where..

acts 17:
16Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

Paul as a God called minister to the gentiles and a minister of the new covenant was directed by God where to preach , if you read acts thats pretty clear. Pauls ministry as a new covenant minister was to minister the spiritual application by way of the spirit applying the new covenant blessings to the elect..

2 cor 3:

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The spirit accompanied his ministry to give life to the elect or to bring life to light by the gospel..

Paul was just merely following the lead of the lord to preach the gospel to his elect in that idolatrous situation..

Also you cannot overlook the fact that repentance is only in view of the covenent blessings of remission of sins..

lk 21:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Thats because God has forgiven the elect in the new covenant blessings..

heb 8:


10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The call for repentance is the apostle calling forth the evidence of the newbirth because he knew that christ has granted repentance to the true israel of God acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

So whenever the call of repentance is given its given with a view of the elect making manifest their newbirth..

God had elect there in that place as we see in vs


32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33So Paul departed from among them. 34Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

It was for those there that believed that paul was sent there to preach the good news and bring forth faith and repentance..

Until you understand the new covenent ug you will be confused about gospel preaching and its purpose..Its only for the outcalling of the elect. !!

For the apostles to preach repentance for any other reason than for the elect to manifest faith and repentance is law preaching and not gospel sir..

new covenent gospel preaching gives life or bring it to light..

2 tim 1:

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: