The external call of the gospel

[lionovjudah]

What amazes me is your overly aggressive, argumentative and condescending attitude!

I can deal with these attributes. Its the sophomoric, base, blockheaded, dense, doltish, dumb, hebetudinous, obtuse, thickheaded, thick-witted. dimwitted, dopey, inability to converse.

And I say this with Love.

[Robert R. Higby]

Darryl states: There is no call to the non elect none..

But that is what others are wrestling with here, Darryl. We don't see that the distinction between an effectual and external call applies ONLY to the Jews as you have proposed.

God commanding all to repent is not the same as God enabling all to repent. For the reprobate, God purposes that many of them shall hear the word of the gospel, rejoice in aspects of it for a time, identify with the true people of God for a time, and then fall away. None of that is true repentance but it certainly shows an interest in GOSPEL LANGUAGE as opposed to the gospel itself in its fullness! If the non-elect were not attuned to ANY aspect of the gospel at all, as what you have presented here would suggest, then there would not be four soils in Christ's parable but only two.

[MCoving]

Wow there's a lot of posts under this topic. Here's my thought sounds like you all agree that the Gospel is shared with everyone, reprobate and not. And only the elect does God open their eyes to understand of the Gospel. Bob made a good point much like the seed that fell on different soils in the ground, some people believe for awhile but fall away at the first sign of trials, or what not. But in the end we know all elect will be in Heaven and nonelect in Hell.

Now thats one point being discussed. The other is about whether or not all are commanded to obey God and His Laws, different than Gospel message. Daryl says if I read things right.. that not ALL men are given the command to obey God, and Brandan (others) say that ALL men are given the command to obey God.

I believe that all men whether elect or not, are told/commanded/called (whatever word one uses) to obey God. The thing is ONLY the elect are ever enabled to obey God, and even sometimes we dont, but that is why we have Jesus. He perfectly met God's commands, the Law. Whereas nonelect will never be able to fully obey God, or fulfill the requirements of the Law.

Daryl so was the commands of the Law, like the ten commandments, etc given to just God's people or everyone? I see that all people are given the command to obey God's Law... the elect thru Christ perfectly obey.. tho the nonelect never will, no matter how much it APPEARS that they do.

Here's some verses to think on:
Rom 11:30, (NASB), For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
*Before someone is a believer they are disobedient to God. As Brandan said nonelect must be disobedient to something right? People say those who are nonelect/elect are disobedient.. nonelect will always stay in that state. So they still transgress the Laws of God...

Eph 2:2, (NASB), in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 5:6, (NASB), Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
*Daryl sons of disobedience... what disobedience? Who are they disobeying? Our God.. for they cannot obey Him fully because they will never have Christ.

Heb 4:6, (NASB), Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, Heb 4:11, (NASB), Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
*Seems to me the Bible talks about disobedience and obedience. If nonelect are disobedient then they sure are called to obey God.

In conclusion, Brandan and Scott are right when they say this, and I believe the verses above.. I can find more proof backs up their words of "All men everywhere are obligated to obey God. The Gospel command is given to everyone. However, only the elect are enabled to believe." "God calls all men to obedience, not just the elect."

Thats my thoughts.. take it or leave it. Daryl also just a suggestion something I've been trying to learn... slow down in what ya write.. personally dont have time to read it all!!! lol

Take care, You're Sis in the Lord,
Mary

[beloved57]

mary ask

Daryl so was the commands of the Law, like the ten commandments, etc given to just God's people or everyone?

Hi Mary. This is a good question. The Ten commandments were given only to The Nation of Israel because He brought them into a covenental relationship with Himself by means of their redemption out of egypt.. God created adam in a covenental relationship and so upon creation God gave Him Law...

So no The Law was not given to the nations of the world but God sufferd them to walk in the ways of their heart..

ps 81


4For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob. 5This he ordained in Joseph for a testimony, when he went out through the land of Egypt: where I heard a language that I understood not.

ps 105:


5Remember his marvellous works that he hath done; his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth;
6O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
7He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
8He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: 12When they were but a few men in

ps 78:

5For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children

ps 147:

19He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
20He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.


Mary look at these above verses especially ps 147 19 20 God gave His statues to Israel this was a token of His covenental Love to them above all other nations of the world..

He suffered the ungodly nations of the world to walk in idolatry:

eph 2:

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world

Now after the eternal purpose of christ became more into play and the nation of Israel forfieted their national privileges God began to manifest His eternal purpose as declared in the abrahamic covenent that all nations would be blessed..Thats why the apostles had to Go into all the world because Gods chosen people are no longer confined to physical Israel but throughout all nations..

Paul as a preacher to the gentiles therefore preached repentance to the gentile world for the outcalling of the elect in them..hence acts 17:

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

This repentance however is still in view of covenant blessing..

paul was sent to what ? acts 26:

17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Through his message at mars Hill God was opening up the eyes of His elect there at that message turning them from idolatry to faith in christ..

Look at the end of the chapter of acts 17:


32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33So Paul departed from among them. 34Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

amen..

[beloved57]

hi bob:

But that is what others are wrestling with here, Darryl. We don't see that the distinction between an effectual and external call applies ONLY to the Jews as you have proposed.

Sorry bob I never said that..I said that the call is always to the elect wether Jew or gentile..

God commanding all to repent is not the same as God enabling all to repent.

God is not calling all men individually to repent thats my point..He is only calling his elect to repent..

Look if God commanded all to repent with the word of his power look what happens !

mk 1;

21And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

22And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
23And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
26And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him. 27And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

The command to repent within the Gospel framework carries with it this same display of divine power..Thats why he told the disciples that greater works than these they would do..

God is not calling everyone to repent only the elect..

For the reprobate, God purposes that many of them shall hear the word of the gospel, rejoice in aspects of it for a time, identify with the true people of God for a time, and then fall away.

this still does not give warrent to say that God calls the reprobate to repent or command them to repent..I see too many scriptures that would nullify that Ideal.

what you are describing are those who fall into the category of the unwanted guest..

matt 22:

11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14For many are called, but few are chosen.

The moral of the story is that he was not really invited by the call only the elect..the bride of the bridegroom..

but thanks for your input sir..

one more comment to bob,

many who hear the gospel as the soils you point out, upon hearing , mistakenly believe the call is for them , but it wasnt, but nevertheless begin to clothe themselves in religous garb of profession , but later it will prove to be counterfiet either in this life or at the day of judgment..they will end up like the uninvited guest..

[Craig kennedy]

I have been following the arguments and intricacies of this debate on the external call of the gospel with deep interest and attention.

All of the comments, in my opinion, have been well informed and considered.

I must say, though, that Darryl's comments have, at least, aroused my interest and I think he should be able to continue to present his case that the reprobate - in his opinion - are not commanded to repent of their sins and believe in Christ crucified.

Now please do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that I agree with Darryl - at least, not at this time anyway; but I do feel that he should be able to fully present his case for his position.

What I would like to see happen is that Darryl's views are honestly and critically evaluated without prejudice so that over time readers of this thread can form their own conclusion as to what really is the truth concerning the external call of the gospel.

Craig

[Highlyfavored]

Now please do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that I agree with Darryl - at least, not at this time anyway; but I do feel that he should be able to fully present his case for his position.

What I would like to see happen is that Darryl's views are honestly and critically evaluated without prejudice so that over time readers of this thread can form their own conclusion as to what really is the truth concerning the external call of the gospel.

Darryl has been allowed to present his views, whether they are agreed with or not. Anyone here is allowed to present their views, as long as they are trying to honestly dialog. The main reason posts are deleted or edited is because they are disrespectful.

[Craig kennedy]

Hi Darryl,

I have appreciated your input on the question, what is the external call of the gospel and to whom is it addressed.

I think you write well and you present a case for your position that only the elect - in your opinion - are called to repent of their sins and believe in Christ crucified.

In the light of your position - which I realise you are convinced of - could you please respond to my questions:

1. Do you believe that all men are condemned by some form of law?

2. If you do believe this then where is that form of law which condemns all men to be found?

3. If it is conceded that the Ten Commandments were given as from the hand of Moses to the nation of Israel only - and I personally do concede it - do you believe that there is a moral law that is revealed in nature which all men are obligated to obey?

I believe that there is such a moral law revealed in nature which condemns all men.

If you say, that you do believe in such a moral law as existing in God's universe then is it not self evident that all men are obligated to obey it?

Although, I now hold to a supralapsarian position on the order of God's decrees this does not rule out God sovereignly and righteously judging the reprobate in the way of their own sin. Do you agree with this?

If you do not agree that the reprobate are obliged to obey God in any way at all, it seems to me that you are holding a form of supralapsarianism that makes God the judge of objects that have no rational volitional or responsibility in any form? For if you are right, then there is no place in the created universe where the reprobate have been shown a better way to live; they are merely objects to be manipulated and positioned by God into paths of wickedness that he set for them.

This, for what it is worth, is the necessary outcome of your theology.

I look forward to your comments and responses.

Craig

[beloved57]

craig ask

1. Do you believe that all men are condemned by some form of law?

Yes in fact the Law was actually given to condemed the elect..rom 7:

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14For we know that the law is spiritual: but

The law craig was never given by God for His children to keep sir but to be a school master guiding the election of grace to Jesus christ..

gal 3:

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I believe that there is such a moral law revealed in nature which condemns all men.

You are right this law of nature is for the condemnation of the wicked reprobate who God created cursed to remain cursed..

gal 3:

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

This is why Christ calls them cursed at the end..

matt 25:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Christ was not made a curse for them..as in gal 3:

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us[ the elect]: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gods purpose for law was never for man to keep but to condmen ..I dont think most professing christians understand the purpose of The Law..

If you do not agree that the reprobate are obliged to obey God in any way at all, it seems to me that you are holding a form of supralapsarianism that makes God the judge of objects that have no rational volitional or responsibility in any form? For if you are right, then there is no place in the created universe where the reprobate have been shown a better way to live; they are merely objects to be manipulated and positioned by God into paths of wickedness that he set for them.

This, for what it is worth, is the necessary outcome of your theology.

You are entitled to your opinion sir..

[Craig kennedy]

Thank you Darryl,

Honesty compels me to say that I think you make a decidedly logical case for your position.

You argue well - backed up by key scriptures - that, in your opinion, the law was given in covenant blessing to the elect alone; whereas, the moral law revealed in nature was given for the condemnation of the reprobate.

I must admit I had never thought of it like that before - therefore, thank you. I am not saying I agree with you. I need to give all this considerable thought and study.

I'm not "ducking for cover" - you will understand - but I need to reflect deeply on what you have said before offering any more of my own opinions.

I'll be interested to see how others on this forum that have had considerable experience in these areas react to these propositions.

Craig

[beloved57]

craig:

Thank you Darryl,

Honesty compels me to say that I think you make a decidedly logical case for your position.

You argue well - backed up by key scriptures - that, in your opinion, the law was given in covenant blessing to the elect alone; whereas, the moral law revealed in nature was given for the condemnation of the reprobate.

I must admit I had never thought of it like that before - therefore, thank you. I am not saying I agree with you. I need to give all this considerable thought and study.

I understand craig and these are conclusions I have not arrived at over night..

I'm not "ducking for cover" - you will understand - but I need to reflect deeply on what you have said before offering any more of my own opinions

Yes please ponder these things and may God confirm that which is Good and from His Mind..

I'll be interested to see how others on this forum that have had considerable experience in these areas react to these propositions

Yes It will be interesting to see...peace..

[marcuslid]

2. If you do believe this then where is that form of law which condemns all men to be found?

Craig

Hi Craig,
This Scripture came to mind for this question. I may be off in left field, and if I am my apologies.

Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

[Craig kennedy]

Hi Craig,
This Scripture came to mind for this question. I may be off in left field, and if I am my apologies.

Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Hi Marc,

Yes, thanks very much for sharing Romans 1:18-20. I must admit that I have always taken that as being God's moral law revealed in nature which, in fact, condemns all men; that is, until Darryl has got me thinking.

I promised I would go away and reflect deeply on what Darryl has said overnight. Well I have even though I didn't sleep much because I was so "pumped" at the prospect of God shedding light on this matter.

I have not arrived at a conclusion on these issues but God has laid on my heart many questions to ask as this subject is wrestled with.

Marc, if you are right that all men are condemned by the moral law as revealed in nature and documented in scripture in Romans 1:18-20 then it follows that all men are commanded to obey God under the same law.

However, if Darryl is right that only the reprobate are under the moral law as revealed in nature then it would follow, to my mind, that the moral law does not exhort the reprobate to turn from sin and stop rebelling against God.

If Darryl's interpretation is the correct one, I can see that the moral law as revealed in nature would only be a positive and resounding declaration from God of the reprobate's disobedience which God has decreed and positively planned.

If Darryl's interpretation is the correct one - and I am not saying that it necessarily is, at this time - then it can be easily seen that the command to repent is only for the election of grace and the moral law revealed in nature condemns the reprobate for not believing the testimony of Jesus Christ revealed in the gospel for God's elect children alone.

The challenge for all godly and spiritually minded people is to decide before the face of God which interpretation is right.

Craig

[beloved57]

craig:

However, if Darryl is right that only the reprobate are under the moral law as revealed in nature then it would follow, to my mind, that the moral law does not exhort the reprobate to turn from sin and stop rebelling against God.

let me please remphasize , Law from God was never given to Man to cause Him to obey and keep,,it was given primarily to make sin known and point to Jesus christ..Jesus christ had always been Gods purposed means of the law being kept and maginified, Jesus christ was the genuine servant of the lord , he was the genuine Israel of God, the genuine Law keeper For Gods people.. He fulfilled the main purpose of Gods Law that was given even from Day one with adam..

It is according to Gods eternal purpose that the elect through the imputed righteousness of christ to be viewed as Law keepers , it is Gods purpose for the non elect to be viewed as law breakers.. The preaching of the gospel is the in calling of the election of grace to turn from their Idols and submit to the righteousness of christ...rom 10:

3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The gospel is used by God to turn his elect to God from Idols..acts 26:

18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The above reference is for gentiles but he purposed it for some elect jews too.

acts 3

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

God has no such purpose for the non elect...

more later..

[Craig kennedy]

Hi Darryl,

I am following all your arguments very carefully but I do have many questions.

The Bible teaches that God detests the proud and curses them. Psalm 119:21, in this connection, asserts:

"Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments."

On your reasoning, this is a curse on the elect who are proud; but this is in direct conflict with eternal justification and the fact that there never was a time when the elect were not blessed and loved with an everlasting love.

In my opinion, God only curses the unrighteousness.

Therefore, in the light of your proposition that God's commandments are only given to the elect, how do you explain - on your theory - that the elect are cursed?

Craig

[Robert R. Higby]

The non-elect are not going to be judged merely or only by external law and commandments, whether Judeo-law, Deca-law, moral law, natural law, or any other law code.

The non-elect are going to be condemned on the day of judgment primarily in relation to the gospel.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Rom. 2:14-16

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me." John 16:8.9

Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? Heb. 10:28,29

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Rev. 21:8

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. Rev. 20:12

All from the NASB.

The non-elect will certainly never understand the gospel in its fullness, however, they will be condemned for the propositions that have been known/perceived with the mind and nonetheless laughed-at/spurned. For those who have not been confronted with the message of Christ in this life, they will be confronted with it on the day of judgment.

I know this goes against all of hardshell Baptist orthodoxy that teaches judgment of the non-elect strictly based on law and not the gospel. But I have no commitment to nor admiration for such orthodoxy; I have to take scripture seriously!

[Dans la Musique]

Reformed believers have invariably distinguished between the external call of the gospel (which is addressed to both reprobate and elect) and the efficacious, internal call of the gospel (which comes to the elect only).

If it is given that reprobation is unconditional (that is, not on the reprobate's foreseen wicked deeds and thoughts) then is it biblical to advocate an external call of the gospel to the reprobate to repent of their sins and to believe in Christ crucified? Why should they do this? Does God, indeed, want them to do this?

Your informed and well-considered comments will be greatly appreciated.

Craig

Reprobation is unconditional and God is righteous is condemning men for their wicked deeds and thoughts. Reprobates never have a condition in which they might be saved though. There is never an option to believe because they never come to an understanding of that which is not for them.

The call of the gospel comes from the Holy Spirit and is always inward. The gospel will be understood in unity with those who also have come to believe and have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

Those who are truly reprobate will never have a reason that they should believe because they dont. Believing in Christ crucified is a stumbling block to all of the prosperity and gain that the world has to offer.

God gets what he wants like Brandon said. God works in mysterious ways and works all things through all of life and history for the elect. God does not want all to believe, but only the chosen and he plans all things toward those ends.

[Craig kennedy]

The non-elect are not going to be judged merely or only by external law and commandments, whether Judeo-law, Deca-law, moral law, natural law, or any other law code.

The non-elect are going to be condemned on the day of judgment primarily in relation to the gospel.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Rom. 2:14-16

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me." John 16:8.9

Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? Heb. 10:28,29

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Rev. 21:8

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. Rev. 20:12

All from the NASB.

The non-elect will certainly never understand the gospel in its fullness, however, they will be condemned for the propositions that have been known/perceived with the mind and nonetheless laughed-at/spurned. For those who have not been confronted with the message of Christ in this life, they will be confronted with it on the day of judgment.

I know this goes against all of hardshell Baptist orthodoxy that teaches judgment of the non-elect strictly based on law and not the gospel. But I have no commitment to nor admiration for such orthodoxy; I have to take scripture seriously!

Bob,

Thank you very much for this presentation. I think I understand your position as saying that it is the gospel and the gospel alone which condemns the reprobate. It has got nothing to do with any form of law at all.

This strikes me as being true to scripture and flies in the face of traditional teaching that all men are judged by the law.

I think I am getting the overall picture. The elect are given the commandments of God in grace to bring them to Christ. The elect are regenerated by the Holy Spirit in time and commanded to repent of their sin and believe in Christ crucified in order to manifest their eternal justification.

The reprobate have no such law. When the gospel command goes to the elect it confirms the reprobate in their state of sin and rebellion. The gospel condemns the reprobate because they do not belong to the sheepfold of Christ and do not share in the covenant blessings of Christ.

Therefore, the so -called moral law revealed in nature has nothing to do with the reprobate's condemnation. It only manifests their true condition in relation to the gospel.

Have I got your argument right?

Craig

[Craig kennedy]

Reprobation is unconditional and God is righteous is condemning men for their wicked deeds and thoughts. Reprobates never have a condition in which they might be saved though. There is never an option to believe because they never come to an understanding of that which is not for them.

The call of the gospel comes from the Holy Spirit and is always inward. The gospel will be understood in unity with those who also have come to believe and have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

Those who are truly reprobate will never have a reason that they should believe because they dont. Believing in Christ crucified is a stumbling block to all of the prosperity and gain that the world has to offer.

God gets what he wants like Brandon said. God works in mysterious ways and works all things through all of life and history for the elect. God does not want all to believe, but only the chosen and he plans all things toward those ends.

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your post. I'm really learning heaps here.

Yes, I can honestly say I am in agreement with what you are saying here.

One question for you:

You say that God is righteous in condemning the reprobate for their wicked deeds and thoughts. Are you saying that although God appointed the reprobate to eternal destruction, the reprobate are 100% responsible for their actions? Are you still saying the reprobate are obliged to repent and obey God? Are you still saying that although unconditional reprobation was created and put in place as part of the truth of the universe, the reprobate gain a deserved end and destiny? Are you still saying that God will be shown as doing injustice to no one?

I look forward to your thoughts.

Craig

[Highlyfavored]

Are you still saying that God will be shown as doing injustice to no one?

If God has created the rules as well as the game, how can anything he does be unjust? God can not be anything but that which he tells us/reveals to us He is.