The external call of the gospel

[Craig kennedy]

craig says



You must not have read my illustration that addresses this point.



disobediance is there way of life , they are children of disobediance , God is not calling them not to be children of disobediance any more as he is calling satan not to be The Father of disobediance..

Jesus will be revealed from heaven taking vengence on the non elect those whom he created to reveal his wrath to any way..

rom 9:


17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God just endured these foolish creatures until the final ingathering of the vessels of mercy..

Satans mission has always been to stop or prevent the elect from obediance to God since the beginning , his obediance and submission is not even a issue neither is the non elect..

Hi Darryl,

Yes, now I think I see what you are truly driving at.

At this time, I respectfully say that I do not think I can agree with you fully at this point. I have many questions which I am more than happy to ask without, necessarily, committing myself to a decided view.

For the moment I have two questions for you:

1. Are the ungodly reprobate made in the image of God?

2. Do the ungodly reprobate have the image of the devil?

Please show me all relevant scriptures.

Craig

[beloved57]

For the moment I have two questions for you:

1. Are the ungodly reprobate made in the image of God?

2. Do the ungodly reprobate have the image of the devil?

Please show me all relevant scriptures.

Craig

I have answered in the blog section..also the archives has intresting discussion I believe on the image of God issue..

[Dans la Musique]

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your post. I'm really learning heaps here.

Yes, I can honestly say I am in agreement with what you are saying here.

One question for you:

You say that God is righteous in condemning the reprobate for their wicked deeds and thoughts. Are you saying that although God appointed the reprobate to eternal destruction, the reprobate are 100% responsible for their actions? Are you still saying the reprobate are obliged to repent and obey God? Are you still saying that although unconditional reprobation was created and put in place as part of the truth of the universe, the reprobate gain a deserved end and destiny? Are you still saying that God will be shown as doing injustice to no one?

I look forward to your thoughts.

Craig

Yes the reprobate are responsible for their actions. Their actions are really a manifestation of what the condition of their darkness is though. I would agree with most of what has been said here that yes the reprobate are held responsible for not obeying and repenting the same as they are condemned for their wickedness and are incapable of being anything but that. And yes they do receive a deserved end and destiny. The thing is that what they get is what they want. They love the things of this world and they get it, they would love for EARTHLY, wicked pleasure to last eternally, but cannot stand the righteousness of God, and therefore eternally will hate God and will continue to hate His righteousness is heaven, whereas the elect will love His righteousness forever and hate the wicked pleasures of the world.

[beloved57]

dan says

Yes the reprobate are responsible for their actions.

I never denied that thats agiven notice what the demons say

matt 8 29

29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Their actions are really a manifestation of what the condition of their darkness is though.

agreed

I would agree with most of what has been said here that yes the reprobate are held responsible for not obeying and repenting the same as they are condemned for their wickedness and are incapable of being anything but that.

I disagree here , they have no more warrent to obey and repent than their father the devil does..Satan is not reponsible to obey and repent if he is show me in scripture Then may I believe his children are..

[Craig kennedy]

Yes the reprobate are responsible for their actions. Their actions are really a manifestation of what the condition of their darkness is though. I would agree with most of what has been said here that yes the reprobate are held responsible for not obeying and repenting the same as they are condemned for their wickedness and are incapable of being anything but that. And yes they do receive a deserved end and destiny. The thing is that what they get is what they want. They love the things of this world and they get it, they would love for EARTHLY, wicked pleasure to last eternally, but cannot stand the righteousness of God, and therefore eternally will hate God and will continue to hate His righteousness is heaven, whereas the elect will love His righteousness forever and hate the wicked pleasures of the world.

Hi Daniel,

I am in agreement with what you write.

All I am adamant about all along is that the reprobate receive a deserved destiny and end and that God is righteous and just in condemning them.
Your post confirms that sentiment.

Although I hold a supralapsarian position, I hold a form of it that affirms that God sovereignly condemns the reprobate in the way of their own sin.
I do not hold to the "free offer" and I believe that God always gets what He wants.

I am genuine in these beliefs. I have much respect for Darryl and I have appreciated his input on this thread; but, alas, I now sense I am running into difficulties with some of his views.

I do not now hold to "common grace" but without offending any on this forum who see it differently, I do not see that God created two separate seeds - the seed of the elect and the seed of the devil. To my mind, this flies in the face of a common fall, the unity of the human race and one common bloodline of humanity.

If this view is the correct one, then I can see how Darryl arrives at his understanding of the call of the gospel.

However, if there was a common fall then it is not difficult to see that the reprobate actively, deliberately and willingly "plunge themselves into destruction" as the Canons of Dort assert.

Out of interest, is the "two seed" view of Darryl the official position of this site? Indeed, what is the official position? Is there anything in my views - currently held - that puts me at odds with this site?

I look forward to your comments.

Craig

[Brandan Kraft]

Out of interest, is the "two seed" view of Darryl the official position of this site? Indeed, what is the official position? Is there anything in my views - currently held - that puts me at odds with this site?

The Two Seeds @ 5solas.org

[MCoving]

The sin of the non elect is making God a liar..

1 jn 5:

10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

to make God a liar does not presuppose any form of command directed to you..

for example. I have a message for a particular individual who is in the company of someone else who the message is not for. I pull the person aside and say hey I have something you must believe ! As I explain the message to that individual the person to whom the message was not for in no way shape or form , nevertheless that person heres the message that was directed to the specific person I wanted to hear the message. Now after the testimony has been given to the one intened I depart. by and by the person who before that was with the person I just gave the message , says hey man I overheard what was said to you and that message was a lie !

So what we have here is a person calling to question the veracity of a message that frankly was not even meant for that person to believe and obey any way..

The sin is not refusing to obey to submitt or anything , it was making god out to be a liar..

calling God a liar is not disobediance per se because the individual was not called by God to obey any way.. The message was not even for him to submitt to or anything..

Now the notriousness of this sin is you make God a liar..that is contributing to Him the very characterisics of the devil..

Notice what Jesus said..

jn 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father ..

Now does this man manifest rebellion ? Why sure..But this manifestation of rebellion was not a result of any specific command to obey at all..

God requires no submission or obediance from the children of the devil than He does from the devil himself..in fact in scripture every command of obediance Given to The devil or his demons they obeyed , they were in submission to the divine will..

Daryl just a question here.. honestly what is so WRONG with saying that the elect and nonelect are commanded to obey or commanded to believe the gospel?? A command doesn't mean they WILL do it. Only the elect will follow through with that command because God enables them too. The reprobate will fall short, and the elect will be shown Grace by God to obey His commands, and believe the Gospel.

I see nothing wrong with others have said about reprobrate being commanded to obey God or believe the Gospel. A command doesn't mean it will be fulfilled. I command my dog to shake my hand, but he wont unless I train him. Just like the reprobate they cant fulfull God's commands unless God enables them too. Which we know He wont.

So honestly I dont see why this is such a HUGE discussion for you, or why it continues? Doesn't seem much to talk about.. though there have been a few good points that were brought up. Thanks for that.

Mary

[beloved57]

mary ask

Daryl just a question here.. honestly what is so WRONG with saying that the elect and nonelect are commanded to obey or commanded to believe the gospel??

Its inconsistent mary To command the non elect to believe the gospel who are satans seed is just like saying God commands satan to repent..for what ?

Why does God want satan to change His mind ? What, He wants satan to turn from serving Idols ? come on..Satan and His seed are all one in the purpose Of God..

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil..

1 jn 38

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

That includes satan and his seed the non elect Christ came to destroy them not give them a command to repent or submitt in obediance..


Notice Gods word in gen 3 15
15And I will put enmity[ hatred] between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The non elect are not the true humanity of God they are as I read once before, phanthom human beings they are devils mary..Jn 670

70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

God is not calling satan nor his seed to repent for what ? They serve His purpose in complte disobediance..they are devils..I know that sounds cruel but its the truth..

[Craig kennedy]

The Two Seeds @ 5solas.org

Thanks Brandan,

I have a lot of reading, thinking and studying to do!

Craig

[Saint Nicholas]

[quote=beloved57;55377]

I believe that the non elect are going to be Judged for the entire tenor of disobediance that characterizes their life as children of disobediance, God fitted them for desruction.. eph 2:

Darryl you state that the reprobate (non-elect) will be judged for their entire tenor of disobedience. And I agree! However what are they disobedient to?

Now I'll state the only two possibilities that are in scripture.

1) Disobedient to the law in all it's forms by not obeying it perfectly!

2) Disobedient to the Gospel by not believing it!

Now since you do not believe that the reprobate have been commanded to obey the law. Then you must conclude that the reprobate are not commanded to believe the Gospel either. Why?
Because Jesus Christ and the Gospel IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW!!
Your theory is a Paradox and you are making arbitrary and unwarranted distinctions.

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

According to Darryl, only the elect are children of disobedience because God ONLY COMMANDS THE ELECT TO OBEY. If Darryl's conclusion is correct then the above verse he states makes absolutely no sense at all. The elect are never considered children of disobedience because they have been justified from eternity. The only children of disobedience are the reprobate because they reject Christ. and by so doing that they reject the law. Christ is the fulfillment of all law.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Agreed, the wrath is upon the reprobate. They are disobedient because they did not obey the COMMAND to obey.

col 3 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Agreed

God never desires or commands any to believe or submitt to this message but the elect..even though He does not take lightly the non elects disbelief of this message , not because he commands them to believe it no no , but because they call him a liar as to the basic tenor of what the gospel message is..

This is foolishness!!! When Moses came down from the Mount with the Law written by the finger of God. I guess this Law was only a command for the Elect Hebrews to obey. The reprobate Hebrews were not commanded to obey this law. However because Darryl says that God does not take lightly the non-elect Hebrew's disbelief, God then decided to split the earth open and swallow up those who were never commanded to believe in the first place.

One last obeservation. All forms of law come with either an implicit and or explicit COMMAND to obey. They cannot be seperated.

Try telling a police officer That you did not stop at the red light because the red light did not command me to stop. See what happens!!!!! Darryl.

And let the reprobate try to tell God that they did not obey Him because the laws (God) did not command them.

Let's get sober here,
Nicholas

[beloved57]

st nic ask

Darryl you state that the reprobate (non-elect) will be judged for their entire tenor of disobedience. And I agree! However what are they disobedient to?

What is satan disobediant to ? Their sins are one and the same , I dont think you can point to one particular thing..They are Just children of disobediance , This is a arbitrary designation of them By God..They are Children of wrath , vessels of wrath.. Its incumbent on you to prove from scripture that God calls the non elect to believe or to repent..So far none has been able to do it much less defend such a fairy tale..

Now since you do not believe that the reprobate have been commanded to obey the law. Then you must conclude that the reprobate are not commanded to believe the Gospel either. Why?

Show me sir in scripture where the reprobate are commanded to obey the law or the gospel..

Because Jesus Christ and the Gospel IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW!!

Sure he is but I percieve you dont know why..

The law was given to the elect to lead them to christ he is the fulfillment of the law..what does that have to do with satan and his seed ?

Your theory is a Paradox and you are making arbitrary and unwarranted distinctions.

Its nothing paradoxal about it..you cannot prove from scripture that God calls the non elect the devils seed to beleive the gospel..If you can show me show me and quit talking sir and back it up with scripture.. I have given you guys boat loads of scripture and none of you have been able to make a reasonable comment to refute anything I have aid out because you cant.. Calling the non elect to obey the gospel is non esisitent in scripture , its contrary to the purpose of God..

According to Darryl, only the elect are children of disobedience

There you go saying I said something I never said slander sir.. I never imlied or said the elect are children of disobediance..Now fair warning if you make another false accusation that I did not say I will ignore you sir..

If Darryl's conclusion is correct then the above verse he states makes absolutely no sense at all.

You dont understand the verse thats all , He says that the elect lifestyle at one time characterized the life style of the actual children of disobediance..

They were not ever children of disobediance..though they experienced that subjective life style...you need to read scripture more carefully..

The only children of disobedience are the reprobate because they reject Christ.

Thats not true and this statement exposes your sublapsarianism to me..God does not designate one a rebrobate based upon what they do [ reject chris] He designed them reprobates out of pure sovereignty before they do good or evil..

. and by so doing that they reject the law

Look sir the law was never for them to reject..

Here is the purpose of the law..

gal 3 19

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

gal 3;


23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our[ the elect] schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith

If you understood what went down in the garden , God gave the law to adam as the repesentative of the elect..

Satan was not never ever from scripture seen to be given a law to obey..and neither his seed..the non elect even though they are human yet they are satans spiritual seed..no law or command was ever given satan to obey...and when it was He obeyed it fully..look at the story of job..1

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

satan was Just as obediant to God..Satan cannot disobey God , God gave the command of what he could and could not do..Neverthe less, He is still a liar and the father of the children of disobediance..its not based on their actions its based on what God calls them..no matter how obediant they are to Gods commands as satan was to this one..

Quote:
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Agreed, the wrath is upon the reprobate. They are disobedient because they did not obey the COMMAND to obey.

This is funny because you cannot prove your point with scripture..just empty words..

This is foolishness!!! When Moses came down from the Mount with the Law written by the finger of God. I guess this Law was only a command for the Elect Hebrews to obey.

You keep showing your shallow understanding sir..The nation of israel was a nation in covenet with God [ elect and none elect] He choose this nation to be incovenet with Him so yes the non elect that were of that nation were in a national covenent with Jehovah This the ten were to primarily be for the govt of the nation as a people..I dont have time to give you a lesson on this bob has Good material for you to look at because you are desperate now..But the elect within that nation were the true objects and design of the law and it was never given to them to keep let alone the reprobated ones , for still even the elect in the covenet nation knew that christ was the true fulfillment of the law..For it was as paul stated a schoolmaster to bring them to christ..Now do you believe that the ten commandments were given to bring the non elect to christ ?

Try telling a police officer That you did not stop at the red light because the red light did not command me to stop. See what happens!!!!! Darryl.

how silly , what does this have to do with God having never ever called the seed of satan to believe the gospel .. Pure human reasoning st nic this is pure humanism you should be ashamed of your self..

One last obeservation. All forms of law come with either an implicit and or explicit COMMAND to obey. They cannot be seperated.

show me where God commanded the non elect to keep his law or believe His Gospel..The closes you will come is by your faulty understaning of the national covenent Law given to the nation as a whole, who were already in a covenent relationship with Him..so again this shows me your shallow understandidng of scripture..

And let the reprobate try to tell God that they did not obey Him because the laws (God) did not command them.

Another empty statement with no scripture to back it up..Show from scripture where God commanded the non elect to obey the gospel..

You did all this talking and have not produced one scripture to support your claims not one..

[beloved57]

By the way , God giving of the law to Israel with all its commandments and oridances..should serve as a type..When the nation apostacized God would call for His people to repent His covenet people He had chosen..He never called for the unbelieving wicked reprobated nations to repent..Thats why you have scriptures like eph 2:
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


Its true today with The Gospel , God does not call the reprobated non elect to repentance but those who are in their covenent Head The Lord Jesus christ..All these he commands repentance and obediance to the Gospel because they are chosen covenent people having been redeemed by His blood...

[Robert R. Higby]

Craig: Please be sure, that to adopt option 2 does not infract a supralapsarian view of the order of the divine decrees, double predestination or a denial of the "free offer", common grace or duty faith/repentance.

Amen! Thanks for reinforcing this point!

Darryl, the same arguments that you make regarding the gospel apply equally to the law. In commanding certain laws to the non-elect, God is ordering them to do what they will not do, cannot do, and is not God's own purpose for them to do. There is just no way that I can see a distinction between the law and the gospel in this regard; that God commands laws to reprobate souls but does not command them to believe the gospel.

I am not teaching duty faith here! That doctrine would only be true if God granted a certain level of ABILITY to believe the gospel to reprobates--which He does not. I don't really like the doctrine of a 'general call' either because of the misconception that can result from such an expression; "call" seems to go further than "announce" in implying that the subjects of the call have some sort of inclination to "come."

Craig, you may not agree with our two-seed doctrine--but it is paramount to understand the difference between it and Parkerism. There are virtually no similarities between the two. Two-seed Parkerism is a Manichean doctrine of two biological seeds which we reject entirely.

[beloved57]

bob says

Darryl, the same arguments that you make regarding the gospel apply equally to the law. In commanding certain laws to the non-elect, God is ordering them to do what they will not do, cannot do,

where i disagree with you bob is that God commands the elect to do what they cannot do , the first manifestation of this was in the garden when Law was given to adam who represented the elect..do you believe that the none elect were given law in adam in the begininng ?

[lionovjudah]

By the way , God giving of the law to Israel with all its commandments and oridances..should serve as a type..When the nation apostacized God would call for His people to repent His covenet people He had chosen..He never called for the unbelieving wicked reprobated nations to repent..Thats why you have scriptures like eph 2:
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


Its true today with The Gospel , God does not call the reprobated non elect to repentance but those who are in their covenent Head The Lord Jesus christ..All these he commands repentance and obediance to the Gospel because they are chosen covenent people having been redeemed by His blood...

So are you saying that when God sent Jonah to Nineveh, He was actually only sending him to the elect in ninevah, therefore I can conclude all head for head in ninevah were elect? But wait, then Nahum goes and nineveh is destroyed therefore 100 years after Jonah, all in Ninevah were reprobate, and not commanded to repent as they did in Jonah's time.

Darryl, you string together 15 theories to try to explain you one point.

[Craig kennedy]

Craig, you may not agree with our two-seed doctrine--but it is paramount to understand the difference between it and Parkerism. There are virtually no similarities between the two. Two-seed Parkerism is a Manichean doctrine of two biological seeds which we reject entirely.[/quote]


Bob,

Thank you for pointing this out to me.

At the moment, I am searching the archives which is chocka full of spiritual gems and theological treasures.

I intend to do a full and unbiased study of this whole area and come to a well thought out position on the matter.

At this time, I am aware of the subject in its broad implications but I am not well versed in all the fine details and distinctions.

This may well take me some time to achieve, so my apparent silence right now to comment any further should not - and must not - be construed as a lack of interest to investigate further.

Of course, I do not promise that I will eventually agree with you on this; but, at this time, I cannot rule it out as a valid interpretative option either.

Craig

[Brandan Kraft]

This may well take me some time to achieve, so my apparent silence right now to comment any further should not - and must not - be construed as a lack of interest to investigate further.

Take your time investigating and discerning truth. It's best to weigh things heavily rather than rush to judgment. I've seen a few people come to this forum, accept everything we say very quickly, and then immediately do a 180 and disagree with us on everything. It's better I think sometimes to slowly chew on ideas, contemplate, and study the topics systematically. That's just my opinion, for what it's worth anyway.

[beloved57]

also bob I would like to get an answer to this question post 94 please..

Thanks..

[Robert R. Higby]

"do you believe that the non elect were given law in adam in the begininng?"

Only Adam was given the particular Law stated in the beginning, no one else.

However, the law-covenant at Sinai is the other works-arrangement of the Old Testament and is far more prominent in accomplishing God's condemning work of the law in history. It was certainly given to non-elect.

[Saint Nicholas]

Darryl....It seems to me that your presupposition is this:

1) When God commands men to repent and obey, God then also naturally desires (wants) them to repent and obey. Command then would = desire on God's part.

Am I correct with that assessment? A simple yes or no is all I'm asking here.

If I am correct in my assessment of your presupposition, than I can readily understand why you would conclude that:

1) God only would command (desire) the elect to repent and obey.
2) God would not command (desire) the non-elect to repent and obey.

I will give you this much. At least your are consistant in trying to uphold your presupposition. However I believe your presupposition to be incorrect, and vehemently disagree with you.

God's commands are one thing. And God's desires are another.

God commands things of men that they are totaly incapable of fullfilling both elect and reprobate. This is my position.

All men are accountable and subservient to God by there very existence as creatures created by God. However God is responsible to save the elect.