The external call of the gospel

[Craig kennedy]

"do you believe that the non elect were given law in adam in the begininng?"

Only Adam was given the particular Law stated in the beginning, no one else.

However, the law-covenant at Sinai is the other works-arrangement of the Old Testament and is far more prominent in accomplishing God's condemning work of the law in history. It was certainly given to non-elect.

Thanks Bob,

That is exactly as I have seen the matter.

One question for Darryl that ensues from this:

If Bob's assertion is true, that the law-covenant at Sinai accomplishes God's condemning work in history for both the elect and reprobate then it would seem to me consistent that both elect and non-elect are commanded to honour their parents. Now whether they do or not is another matter; but suffice it to say that both predestined groups of people are commanded to honour their parents because this is what he demands of them.

Now if your assertion is true, then you must, of necessity, posit that because the law-covenant at Sinai is only for the elect then the reprobate are no where condemned for their failure to honour their parents. In fact, on your argumentation, God does not want the reprobate to honour their parents and does not expect them to.

Could you please explain this?

Craig

[beloved57]

craige says

If Bob's assertion is true, that the law-covenant at Sinai accomplishes God's condemning work in history for both the elect and reprobate then it would seem to me consistent that both elect and non-elect are commanded to honour their parents

Again both of you are missing the point. These commandments go out to the nation of Israel because they are the chosen covenent people of God. None of Gods commands go to those who are outside of a covenent relationship with God..

Why we dont these commands going out to the heathen nations ? Those outside of a covenent relationship with God.

Then secondly both of you miss the point of the commandments, they were given to bring the election of grace to faith in christ in the covenent nation..

gal 3:22-24

Now if your assertion is true, then you must, of necessity, posit that because the law-covenant at Sinai is only for the elect then the reprobate are no where condemned for their failure to honour their parents. In fact, on your argumentation, God does not want the reprobate to honour their parents and does not expect them to.

Again it is consistent throughout scripture God only gives commands to those in a covenent relationship with Him self..The nation of Israel was in a covenent relatioship , adam was , and, the election of grace..

for all three groups the law was given for the purpose of not keeping but exposisng their sinfulness and pointing them to christ..

The law was never given to the reprobate to keep , it wasnt even given to the elect to keep it was given to drive them to christ. So I suppose that God gave the reprobated Jews the law to keep and the elect jews to bring to christ ? Or He gave it to the reprobated Jews to also bring them to christ.? Which one..If He gave it to the reprobated jews to bring them to christ this purpose failed..

I just dont see where you fellows really understand the purpose of the Law of God..

[Craig kennedy]

craige says



Again both of you are missing the point. These commandments go out to the nation of Israel because they are the chosen covenent people of God. None of Gods commands go to those who are outside of a covenent relationship with God..

Why we dont these commands going out to the heathen nations ? Those outside of a covenent relationship with God.

Then secondly both of you miss the point of the commandments, they were given to bring the election of grace to faith in christ in the covenent nation..

gal 3:22-24




Again it is consistent throughout scripture God only gives commands to those in a covenent relationship with Him self..The nation of Israel was in a covenent relatioship , adam was , and, the election of grace..

for all three groups the law was given for the purpose of not keeping but exposisng their sinfulness and pointing them to christ..

The law was never given to the reprobate to keep , it wasnt even given to the elect to keep it was given to drive them to christ. So I suppose that God gave the reprobated Jews the law to keep and the elect jews to bring to christ ? Or He gave it to the reprobated Jews to also bring them to christ.? Which one..If He gave it to the reprobated jews to bring them to christ this purpose failed..

I just dont see where you fellows really understand the purpose of the Law of God..

Darryl,

In effect you are saying that all forms of written and coded laws are for the elect only; they are given in grace only for the elect with the express purpose of driving them to Christ.

The reprobate are under no form of written law; the moral law revealed in nature is not grace for them but only reveals them as sons of disobedience. The difficulty, at this time, I have with this view is that there is no exhortation or encouragement for the reprobate to turn from wickedness and sin.

If your view is the correct one, it does not condemn the reprobate in the way of their own wickedness and sin; it only reveals their condition which God has created and planned for them.

Darryl, I respect you a lot; but this is the major defect in your approach to this problem as I see it at the moment.

Craig

[beloved57]

craige says

In effect you are saying that all forms of written and coded laws are for the elect only; they are given in grace only for the elect with the express purpose of driving them to Christ.

Yes all law was given to folk in a covenental relationship with God..

remeber pauls words when he said this ?

1 cor 9

To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

[beloved57]

craige says

The reprobate are under no form of written law; the moral law revealed in nature is not grace for them but only reveals them as sons of disobedience.

Correct 1 jn 3

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The difficulty, at this time, I have with this view is that there is no exhortation or encouragement for the reprobate to turn from wickedness and sin.

Why is that a difficulty thats how it was before the Gospel was sent to the nations..

acts 17:


23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

so logic tells me that there was a time when God did not command men everywhere to repent..

If your view is the correct one, it does not condemn the reprobate in the way of their own wickedness and sin; it only reveals their condition which God has created and planned for them.

If it means the law yes Just like with pharoah..

rom 9


16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Also consider judas as a type of all the reprobate and the children of perdition..Please show me one time where Jesus warned him not to betray him , or told him to repent.. Jesus even designated him a devil because he was of his seed..

Now , would God call us to proclaim to the devil to repent ? No the same for the devils children the non elect..

[Robert R. Higby]

Paul calls the law-covenant a 'ministry of condemnation':

For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 2 Cor. 3:9

The covenant made with Israel at Sinai was a covenant of DEATH, not LIFE--both for elect and non-elect! Ditto the arrangement that God made with Adam in the garden. The only reason that a remnant from Israel are saved as elect is because of the additional PROMISSORY covenants of LIFE that apply only to them.

I'm not going to go thru the exercise of citing how many times in scripture God commanded and required non-elect persons to do something; it is a moot point when a system of belief that assumes such commandments cannot exist is espoused without any consideration that it might be in error.

[beloved57]

bob says

I'm not going to go thru the exercise of citing how many times in scripture God commanded and required non-elect persons to do something;

i think thats a good ideal though bob..I would like to examine those commands in light of the gospel being a command to the non elect..

If not on open please send me those verses privately..

Thanks..

[Craig kennedy]

Paul calls the law-covenant a 'ministry of condemnation':

For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 2 Cor. 3:9

The covenant made with Israel at Sinai was a covenant of DEATH, not LIFE--both for elect and non-elect! Ditto the arrangement that God made with Adam in the garden. The only reason that a remnant from Israel are saved as elect is because of the additional PROMISSORY covenants of LIFE that apply only to them.

I'm not going to go thru the exercise of citing how many times in scripture God commanded and required non-elect persons to do something; it is a moot point when a system of belief that assumes such commandments cannot exist is espoused without any consideration that it might be in error.

Again thanks Bob,

I must say that this is as I see it.

In case Darryl wonders why I haven't quoted a lot of scripture in dialogue with him on this controverted point, let me assure him it is not because I am not aware that scripture is the primary source of all our knowledge on these things; I am surely aware of this and hold to the absolute inerrancy of scripture as strenuously as anyone.

My only reason for witholding much reference to scripture is only because I am well aware of the danger of "proof texting"; in other words both sides of this argument can marshall evidence from the scriptures themselves that appears to support their position.

At this stage, I think it is more important to argue this issue on the overall dogmatic declarations of scripture that produce a definitive belief system that is consistent logically with the dogmas of supralapsarianism, double predestination, and the denial of the "free offer", common grace and duty faith/duty repentance.

From a certain point of view, I could be "stretched" to possibly see that the scriptures you promote could support your theory and belief system.
However, at this point in time, I fail to be utterly convinced by your assertion that the reprobate, never anywhere in scripture, come under any written or coded commandments of God.

I hope this, at least, makes my position more plain.

Craig

[The Hawker]

Reformed believers have invariably distinguished between the external call of the gospel (which is addressed to both reprobate and elect) and the efficacious, internal call of the gospel (which comes to the elect only).

If it is given that reprobation is unconditional (that is, not on the reprobate's foreseen wicked deeds and thoughts) then is it biblical to advocate an external call of the gospel to the reprobate to repent of their sins and to believe in Christ crucified? Why should they do this? Does God, indeed, want them to do this?

Your informed and well-considered comments will be greatly appreciated.

Craig

The external call has to happen, that we see the manifestation of salvation, or the manifestation of reprobation in a persons' life.

The law brings a person to a realisation of sin. Grace brings the cure. Unless God brings a person to realise their sins, there is no hope for them. Of course, God saves those He will, and the glorious thing about this, is that salvation is all of God and NONE of man. We take no credit for any of it.

I think we would live better lives as Christians, if we fully realised who we are in Christ. We would live better in Gods' power. We need to speak the Word of God into our very beings.

God wants us to be consecrated to Him, and serve Him only. We need Christ moment by moment to help us enter in to the rest He has for His own children.

May we all know the continual glory of His presence in these days!

Blessings to you ALWAYS,

Kevin.