God's motive for chosing His elect

[marcuslid]

Hi everybody,
I just read this today and thought I'd share it with you. Most of you probably have already read this it is from A.W. Pink's book "The Sovereinty of God". He comments on Eph. 1:3-5
Here also we discover the motive which prompted Him. It was "in love the that He predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself" - a statement which refutes the oft made and wicked charge that, for God to decide the eternal destiny of His creatures before they are born, is tyrannical and unjust.

[beloved57]

marcus says

.

It was "in love the that He predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself"

I think you have something here marco..

Matt 7:

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I believe that Jesus here meant love or knew with covenental Love a intimate knowing..so yes those he did know would mean he loved intimately which would correspond with your point eph 1According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This love or knowing by God secured the elects eternal salvation and all that is implied by that..conformity to christ our Eternal Covenent Head and all spiritual blessings associated there with..

[Craig kennedy]

marcus says

.

I think you have something here marco..

Matt 7:

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I believe that Jesus here meant love or knew with covenental Love a intimate knowing..so yes those he did know would mean he loved intimately which would correspond with your point eph 1According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This love or knowing by God secured the elects eternal salvation and all that is implied by that..conformity to christ our Eternal Covenent Head and all spiritual blessings associated there with..

Hi Darryl,

I can go along entirely with what you write here and it confirms the sweet, blessed promises of God's covenant love to His people.

I always find this side of the equation of God's double predestination to be more pallatable than the other!

And, Marc, I appreciate your bringing Pink's view of the election of God's people as being grounded in Christ as our Covenant Head and Surety, to our attention.

I will be interested, however, to obtain from you your thoughts on the motives for God's unconditional reprobation of the wicked. What in the eternal mind, will and eternal counsels of the Supreme Deity motivated God to create unconditional reprobation as part of the truth of the universe?

Craig

[beloved57]

craig

Hi Darryl,

I can go along entirely with what you write here and it confirms the sweet, blessed promises of God's covenant love to His people.

I always find this side of the equation of God's double predestination to be more pallatable than the other!

thanks craig and I feel you bro..

I will be interested, however, to obtain from you your thoughts on the motives for God's unconditional reprobation of the wicked. What in the eternal mind, will and eternal counsels of the Supreme Deity motivated God to create unconditional reprobation as part of the truth of the universe?

I am studying that subject now reprobation i have been reading a old baptist James wells he is supra supra on the ideal of reprobation..he says that Gods reprobation is clearly a sovereign determination and not even the non elects sins played into the equation..

I believe bob or brandon can shed some light on this subject of reprobation..

[Craig kennedy]

Thanks Darryl,

Yes, I will be most interested to learn from Bob or Brandan on this subject and I will be grateful for any help they can give me.

Craig

[beloved57]

Yes and I forgot to mention the archives here will have some food for thought..

[marcuslid]

I will be interested, however, to obtain from you your thoughts on the motives for God's unconditional reprobation of the wicked. What in the eternal mind, will and eternal counsels of the Supreme Deity motivated God to create unconditional reprobation as part of the truth of the universe?

Craig

Hi Craig, as for my thoughts, can I plead Job 40:4 "Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer you?
I lay my hand on my mouth.
The only answer I can add would be Romans 9:22-23 - 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

[Craig kennedy]

Hi Craig, as for my thoughts, can I plead Job 40:4 "Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer you?
I lay my hand on my mouth.
The only answer I can add would be Romans 9:22-23 - 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Hi Marc,

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, God always gets what He wants and never has to explain Himself.

However, even though I hold to a supralapsarian position I still believe He acts in perfect justice toward the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. I believe there never was a time in God's mind that He did not see his elect as covered with the blood of Christ. That is why I hold to supralapsarianism.

I would agree with Hodge and Boettner who posit that supralapsaianism is not inconsistent with God punishing the reprobate in the way of their own sin. This is what I believe. I, therefore, concur with Hodge and Boettner who write:

Charles Hodge (Systematic Theology, Part III--Soteriology, Chapter I, Section 2--Supralapsarianism):

It is a further objection to the supralapsarian scheme that it is not consistent with the Scriptural exhibition of the character of God. He is declared to be a God of mercy and justice. But it is not compatible with these divine attributes that men should be foreordained to misery and eternal death as innocent, that is, before they had apostatized from God. If passed by and foreordained to death for their sins, it must be that in predestination they are contemplated as guilty and fallen creatures.

Lorraine Boettner (The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Chapter XI--Unconditional Election, Section 6--Infralapsarianism and Supralapsarianism):

It is not in harmony with the Scripture ideas of God that innocent men, men who are not contemplated as sinners, should be foreordained to eternal misery and death. The decrees concerning the saved and the lost should not be looked upon as based merely on abstract sovereignty. God is truly sovereign, but this sovereignty is not exercised in an arbitrary way. Rather it is a sovereignty exercised in harmony with His other attributes, especially his justice, holiness, and wisdom.

Yes, indeed, as a supralapsarian I believe that God's sovereignty is not exercised in an arbitrary way but exercised in harmony with His whole character and the divine splendour of His person.

Craig

[rlhuckle]

Hi Marc,

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, God always gets what He wants and never has to explain Himself.

However, even though I hold to a supralapsarian position I still believe He acts in perfect justice toward the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. I believe there never was a time in God's mind that He did not see his elect as covered with the blood of Christ. That is why I hold to supralapsarianism.

I would agree with Hodge and Boettner who posit that supralapsaianism is not inconsistent with God punishing the reprobate in the way of their own sin. This is what I believe. I, therefore, concur with Hodge and Boettner who write:

Charles Hodge (Systematic Theology, Part III--Soteriology, Chapter I, Section 2--Supralapsarianism):

It is a further objection to the supralapsarian scheme that it is not consistent with the Scriptural exhibition of the character of God. He is declared to be a God of mercy and justice. But it is not compatible with these divine attributes that men should be foreordained to misery and eternal death as innocent, that is, before they had apostatized from God. If passed by and foreordained to death for their sins, it must be that in predestination they are contemplated as guilty and fallen creatures.

Lorraine Boettner (The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Chapter XI--Unconditional Election, Section 6--Infralapsarianism and Supralapsarianism):

It is not in harmony with the Scripture ideas of God that innocent men, men who are not contemplated as sinners, should be foreordained to eternal misery and death. The decrees concerning the saved and the lost should not be looked upon as based merely on abstract sovereignty. God is truly sovereign, but this sovereignty is not exercised in an arbitrary way. Rather it is a sovereignty exercised in harmony with His other attributes, especially his justice, holiness, and wisdom.

Yes, indeed, as a supralapsarian I believe that God's sovereignty is not exercised in an arbitrary way but exercised in harmony with His whole character and the divine splendour of His person.

Craig

I don't believe Scripture supports the idea that ANY man is constituted innocent at any time--maybe ignorant, but never innocent (sinless) in the sense that Boettner and Hodge are using the term(I believe being constituted with the presence of a predisposition to sin required Christ's sacrifice--before any overt behavior occurred--Adam was ignorant, not innocent). There is an argument that all men are made from the same lump (vague definition--I believe there are two seeds) and God decreed to save some. Why is there such an abhorrence of "unmerited disfavor" where "unmerited favor" is not objected to? What is man that God should take notice or who can complain of the way God makes them? He is made just as God creates him--for wrath unless ordained to life in Christ.

I think Hodge and Boettner may have a humanistic idea of "justice" they want to impose upon God....just my two cents.

[Highlyfavored]

I don't believe Scripture supports the idea that ANY man is constituted innocent at any time--maybe ignorant, but never innocent (sinless) in the sense that Boettner and Hodge are using the term(I believe being constituted with the presence of a predisposition to sin required Christ's sacrifice--before any overt behavior occurred--Adam was ignorant, not innocent). There is an argument that all men are made from the same lump (vague definition--I believe there are two seeds) and God decreed to save some. Why is there such an abhorrence of "unmerited disfavor" where "unmerited favor" is not objected to? What is man that God should take notice or who can complain of the way God makes them? He is made just as God creates him--for wrath unless ordained to life in Christ.

I think Hodge and Boettner may have a humanistic idea of "justice" they want to impose upon God....just my two cents.

Nicely put Roger.

[beloved57]

rl says

(I believe being constituted with the presence of a predisposition to sin required Christ's sacrifice--before any overt behavior occurred--Adam was ignorant, not innocent)

I agree rog , you know from other places I argue that the mere fact God created adam mutable argues to him adam being created sinful, and it was a matter of time that it would be manifested..

[Robert R. Higby]

We had this discussion about the love and mercy of God last year when John Gipson was agitating a certain position on the 'justification in Christ alone' doctrine.

The theologian who took what Hodge and Boettner was saying to its logical conclusion was Samuel Richardson of 1st London Baptist Confession fame, who finally wrote a book denying hell and affirming universalism. That is the only conclusion you can come to if you assume that God is love and mercy at the core of his being to the extent that eternal wrath is incompatable with that love and mercy. Of course, Hodge and Boettner would say (along with most Reformed teachers) that God must abandon His sentiments of love and mercy and administer justice according to the 'eternal law'. Hogwash! God is above all law since He is the creator of law. Either He has a disposition of mercy to all or He doesn't. If He has a disposition of wrath toward any, it is quite independent of any a-priori consideration of their sin and rebellion. God determines to exercise wrath to magnify His glory, then creates certain beings in eternal sin to guarantee that they will be worthy of His wrath.

[Kentucky Kid]

Darryl (quote): "James Wells he is a supra supra on the idea of reprobation..................he says God's reprobation is clearly a sovereign determination and not even the non-elects sins played into the equation". Darryl feel free to join the supra supra club........at least you know one member-me!...Romans 9...............................KK

[Craig kennedy]

Darryl (quote): "James Wells he is a supra supra on the idea of reprobation..................he says God's reprobation is clearly a sovereign determination and not even the non-elects sins played into the equation". Darryl feel free to join the supra supra club........at least you know one member-me!...Romans 9...............................KK

Hi KK,

Thank you for those ideas.

Thanks, too, to Roger, Greg and Bob for pointing out what you preceive to be inconsistencies in Hodge and Boettner's "take" on supralapsarianism.


I am humble enough to admit that I might not be a genuine - that is, a supra supra as KK puts it - supralapsarian after all. The only reason I have put this on my profile is because I am convinced there was never a time when the elect were not justified by the blood of Christ.

I am currently researching the "two seed" position with an open mind and I will remain open as to whether I am, in fact, a genuine supralapsarian at all.

In all this, of course, I have no axe to grind, no doctrine of my own to promote or any agenda to pursue.

I am grateful to God for bringing me this far by His grace. I realise that I know little and God is great!

I will remain open to the truth and clearer light on this issue. For the reasons you have given, I have felt led to change my soteriological position to calvinism on my profile.

I will remain open to any insights I can get on this site; but, this time, I'll hang in here and keep learning and growing.

Craig

[Kentucky Kid]

Hi Craig! Supra means BEFORE. Supralapsarianism teaches that God decreed the elect BEFORE the fall. Infra means AFTER. Infralapsarianism teaches that God decreed the elect AFTER the fall...... If you believe there never was not a time that the elect were not justified in Christ- then most on the forum would say you believe in "Justification from eternity": "According as he has chosen us IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Ephesian 1:4 -my emphasis). As my labeling myself as a "Supra Supra": I just mean I was suppporting Darryl 's comments about James Wells-for the the Bible clearly teaches in Romans 9:11-18 that God elected one child and reprobated the other BEFORE their works and their sins where ever to be considered BECAUSE double predestination is a free, sovereign, UNCONDITIONAL act of God.............."Even so, Father: for it seemed good in thy sight" (Matthew 11:26)...............................KK

[marcuslid]

Hi KK,

Thank you for those ideas.

Thanks, too, to Roger, Greg and Bob for pointing out what you preceive to be inconsistencies in Hodge and Boettner's "take" on supralapsarianism.


I am humble enough to admit that I might not be a genuine - that is, a supra supra as KK puts it - supralapsarian after all. The only reason I have put this on my profile is because I am convinced there was never a time when the elect were not justified by the blood of Christ.

I am currently researching the "two seed" position with an open mind and I will remain open as to whether I am, in fact, a genuine supralapsarian at all.

In all this, of course, I have no axe to grind, no doctrine of my own to promote or any agenda to pursue.

I am grateful to God for bringing me this far by His grace. I realise that I know little and God is great!

I will remain open to the truth and clearer light on this issue. For the reasons you have given, I have felt led to change my soteriological position to calvinism on my profile.

I will remain open to any insights I can get on this site; but, this time, I'll hang in here and keep learning and growing.

Craig

Hey Craig,
Thanks for your openness, and your humble willingness to learn
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Blessings in christ Jesus

[Craig kennedy]

Hey Craig,
Thanks for your openness, and your humble willingness to learn
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Blessings in christ Jesus

Thanks Marc,

I appreciate sincerely your comments.

The verse you shared speaks powerfully to me and, yes, I have every confidence in our great God that all His purposes for me will be perfectly fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Blessings in Christ,

Craig

[Craig kennedy]

Hi Craig! Supra means BEFORE. Supralapsarianism teaches that God decreed the elect BEFORE the fall. Infra means AFTER. Infralapsarianism teaches that God decreed the elect AFTER the fall...... If you believe there never was not a time that the elect were not justified in Christ- then most on the forum would say you believe in "Justification from eternity": "According as he has chosen us IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Ephesian 1:4 -my emphasis). As my labeling myself as a "Supra Supra": I just mean I was suppporting Darryl 's comments about James Wells-for the the Bible clearly teaches in Romans 9:11-18 that God elected one child and reprobated the other BEFORE their works and their sins where ever to be considered BECAUSE double predestination is a free, sovereign, UNCONDITIONAL act of God.............."Even so, Father: for it seemed good in thy sight" (Matthew 11:26)...............................KK

Hi KK,

Is it possible, then, on the basis of what you write, that a person could hold to eternal justification (that is, there never was a time when the elect were not justified by the blood of Christ) and be, for example, an infralapsarian?

Are these two concepts compatible and can they be held together?

I would be most interested to obtain the well-considered opinions of Roger, Greg and Bob as well as your own. It could be that I have tripped myself up over terms and labels; it could be that in a heart felt conviction that the elect's justification is eternal I have adopted too quickly a supralapsarian position without considering all the implications.

I stand to be informed, instructed and even corrected on all this.

Blessings

Craig

[Kentucky Kid]

INFRALAPSARIANISM AND JUSTIFICATION FROM ETERNITY: Craig I don't see these two doctrines as compatible. I'm sure you'll get more input. First, generally on the forum we hold to "Justification from eternity" compared to "eternal justification". Eternal justification can be held by some that you can be amongst God's elect and never know it in this life and just get into heaven without being regenerated, repenting, and believing; hence most of us use the term "Justification from eternity" (JFE). Concerning JFE and Infralapsarianism (Infralap): The two cannot be reconciled. JFE holds to the fact that the elect have ALWAYS been seen as justified in Christ. INFRALAP says the elect were under condemnation just like the reprobate through the fall, and THEN God chose them. MOST INFRALAPS (not all) then hold that the elect are not justified until they believe. This means that the elect were not ALWAYS seen as justified. This is why the two are not compatible. They contradict each other as I see it.............................."according to his own purpose and grace, which WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN" (II Timothy 1:9- my emphasis).............................KK

[Robert R. Higby]

For me, SUPRA and INFRA do not mean before and after according to their real meaning--which is 'superior to' and 'inferior to'. Most who use the Calvinist name want to be supralapsarian on GRACE and infralapsarian on WRATH! But this would imply that God is at odds with His own purposes; that He is somehow unable to positively purpose wrath to the same extent that He positively purposes grace!

Grace and wrath are opposite purposes of God that are not intertwined in any way; they are very different manners in which YAHWEH determines to glorify himself (just like the election of angels is a very different manner of manifesting His glory). Any theology that confuses grace and wrath in proposing that either are COMMON does not perceive the glorious purpose of God in both.