But if you're going to start the basis of your doctrine on speculation, why not continue it out that way?Originally Posted by wildboar
But if you're going to start the basis of your doctrine on speculation, why not continue it out that way?
Jn 14:23-24, (NASB)
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, BUT The Father's Who sent Me.
Whammer:
So you don't think Adam would have gained any knowledge of evil by his temptation by the devil?
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Then the Lord said to Moses, "See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments. The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst." Ex. 7:1-5, NASB
There is no 'plan B' with God. To speculate on the above verse with the question: "WHAT would have been the destiny of Egypt IF Pharaoh had OBEYED the commandment of God to LET MY PEOPLE GO" is entirely superflouous. There was no such possibility because God is the great I WILL DO WHAT I WILL DO as Moses proclaimed His name to Pharaoh!
In the above passage we see how God in certain instances carries out His purposes:
1. He commands something that He purposes will NOT be obeyed by the person to whom it is commanded.
2. He does this strictly to bring glory to Himself in the subsequent judgment and downfall of the one disobedient to His commandment and concurrent exaltation of His elect people to rule and reign over the damned.
Though Adam was elect, much of the same principle applies:
1. God gave Adam a commandment to obey which was a conditional covenant of continued life in the garden.
2. God purposed that Adam disobey that commandment in order to pave the way for the manifestation of eternal Grace in the person and work of Jesus Christ His Son.
3. God hardened Adam's heart against obeying the commandment.
4. Adam disobeyed and was ejected from the garden paradise and the tree giving perpetual life to one who eats.
There was no IF Adam had obeyed THEN . . .
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Who could know such a thing but God alone! The point is that if we are going to start with this kind of ungodly speculation (since we have the revealed "eternal purpose" in accord with election already laid out clearly in the fullness of NT revelation on top of OT prophecies) that we could end up with any number of speculative scenarios.
History is what it is by design, not by reaction, the future history (I speak as I should....a man, with relation to time) is already written for God to see it play out exactly the way He has predetermined.......all in accordance with the eternal purpose.......Rom. 9:11, Eph. 3:11, both in their respective contexts.
If Christ was to be incarnate and God display His glory in Him (Heb. 1:1-3) in the plan of redemption (accords with election...hum!) in the way He has determined to be wisest....then all that happened in the garden is all part of the plan.......it could not be otherwise or God would not be God--which is impossible!
Jn 14:23-24, (NASB)
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, BUT The Father's Who sent Me.
In a certain respect I completely agree with you. That which God has decreed will most certainly come to pass. But in another respect God really says if you do this you will live and if not you will die and people make real decisions. We are not stocks and blocks. I can't just go out tomorrow and commit adultery and then when my wife complains about it say, "God decreed it, nothing I could do about it."
But the Scriptures do not teach us this. You are assuming this is what must have happened.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
I do not believe that sin happens in some cases (post-Adam) because of a heart inclined to it and in other cases (pre-fall) 'just for the h### of it' even though the heart is perfectly holy. We will just never agree that scripture teaches inconsistent principles accomodating such a paradox. Everyone's view of what happened there is based on his/her presuppositions overall about what scripture teaches on the issue of the origin of evil.
It is true that in some cases, for example with the nation of Israel, God presents two possible destinies linked to two distinct courses of action. Naturally, if one accepts God's sovereignty as the cause of everything, even in that instance only one outcome was possible.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Nicholas;55991
Sin is anything and everything that is not God Himself. All that is not God "falls short"
Roger......Thanks for your inquiry. I'll try to be brief. I agree, this would make a good topic in another thread.
When discussing "sin", most definitions of "sin" are related to " disobedient acts of individuals". I agree that these disobedient acts are sinful, however most in the churchy world fail to mention that "obedient acts are just as sinful " These actions proceed from the heart and fail to be perfect.
But what I am referring to in the above quote is not "sins of commision or ommision" but rather the state/bieng/essence of mankind in general.
Since there is only one God that is perfect and sinless, nothing else can ever be like God in essence. NO CLONING! In this sense all of creation falls/comes short of the Glory of God. It is therefore unlike God in essence and therefore sin.
"God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" 1 John 1:5
Let's look at the start of the "shadow creation" Genesis 1:1-3 " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and darkness was upn the face of the deep. And the Spirit (light) of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
To be brief, God creates darkness and then fills it with light. But reading on you will see that God starts to separate light from darkness. God continues to show us this pattern of separation throughout the scriptures.
Wheats - Tares
Sheeps - Goats
Elect - Reprobate
Righteousness- Unrighteousness
Christ- Satan
etc. etc.
Adam was no different. he was created with the ability and capacity to do what was right and to do what was wrong. He was given 1 command and he failed. God created Adam and us this way. There is no difference. Adam sinned because he was created with a sin nature. "All (Adam) have sinned and come short of the glory of God". We did not inherit our sin nature from Adam. We are all created individually by God with a sin nature.
Now I know the neo Platoist/Augustinians are going to rail at me. But that is OK by me.
If you would like Roger, I can continue this in a new thread. Time permitting. Or feel free to start it yourself.
Nicholas
Thanks Nicholas--sorry its been a few days; busy week. I promoted this view elsewhere and received the railing you describe.
Well, we certainly appreciate all of your contributions here Roger! You are a most welcome and encouraging member of our posting community!
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
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