David Simpson and Ken Wimer AGAINST Justification from Eternity

[lionovjudah]

Wow, so you agree with us? That justification and glorification are a done deal in the mind of God from eternity? That's our entire point.

Not exactly BK. The decree is one thing, the actual fulfillment is another. That is where we differ. I never spoke against an eternal aspect of God at all.

[Brandan Kraft]

Not exactly BK. The decree is one thing, the actual fulfillment is another. That is where we differ. I never spoke against an eternal aspect of God at all.

How do we differ on the fulfillment? I believe God's decrees are fulfilled in time. You said ealier:

Of course it is a done deal in the mind of God, becasue what he decrees/purpose, will come to pass.

I agree!

However, if it is a done deal in the mind of God - which you state above - how could His disposition change? (if it's a done deal in His mind?) That's what is REALLY CONFUSING to me. Your position is very inconsistent to me... Please help! Thanks - Brandan

[lionovjudah]

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm#TENSE
wrong again Joe, your thinking of perfect or imperfect tenses, Aorist is generally past or punctiliar.
The event (in the aorist) may have a continuous time, but it is a past continuous time... and completed in that past time.

Generally? I believe your understanding is not entirely correct. as I have pointed out Paul first of all would have been speaking Hebrew. Therefore the point I mentioned about hebrew not having tenses is very important. Please read the link I provided since I am not a hebrew grammarian. All I know is the way it is written is perfectly in line with a prophetic future event

Whammer, here is a great article explaining this.

http://www.truthortradition.com/modu...rticle&sid=298

To express future actions, when the speaker intends by an express assurance to represent them as finished, or as equivalent to accomplished facts:
(b) To express facts which are undoubtedly immanent, and, therefore, in the imagination of the speaker, already accomplished. This use of the perfect occurs most frequently in prophetic language (perfectum propheticum [Latin for “prophetic perfect”]). The prophet so transports himself in imagination into the future that he describes the future event as if it had been already seen or heard by him, e.g., Isa. 5:13, therefore my people are gone into captivity; 9:1; 10:23; 11:9; 19:7; Job 5:20; 2 Chronicles 20:37. Not infrequently the imperfect [i.e., the actual future tense] interchanges with such perfects either in the parallel member or further on in the narrative. [6]


Paul did not finish writing the Church Epistles and walk away saying, “Ha! They’ll never figure that out.” Certainly not. He wrote using words and phrases that reveal truth. The truth revealed by the prophetic perfect idiom is that the Christian does not need to worry about his salvation, redemption, or glorification. Although these things are not yet fully realized, the presence of the holy spirit in the Christian and the sure word of prophecy guarantees them when the Lord returns.


F.F. Bruce, noted linguist and biblical scholar, writes specifically about Ephesians 2:6:

That God has already seated his people with Christ in the heavenly realm is an idea unparalleled elsewhere in the Pauline corpus. It can best be understood as a statement of God’s purpose for his people—a purpose which is so sure of fulfillment that it can be spoken of as having already taken place. [16]

[Whammer]

Generally? I believe your understanding is not entirely correct. as I have pointed out Paul first of all would have been speaking Hebrew. Therefore the point I mentioned about hebrew not having tenses is very important.

So now I am to believe that Paul wrote his epistles to the Romans and Ephesians in Hebrew? As if that was a popular language among gentiles?
The point in Greek may be semantic, but you pointed to that whether you meant to or not.
Chilton's point on the Eph. passage is incorrect, re-read 1 Cor 1-2, believers dont have to be linguistic scholars to interpret spiritual words. I am thankful for genuine brethren that have linguistic gifts, but the vast majority (of linguistic scholars) have received their credentials from the worlds religions, so for them to actually understand the meanings of what they translate is out of their natural reach.

[lionovjudah]

How do we differ on the fulfillment? I believe God's decrees are fulfilled in time. You said ealier:
I agree!

However, if it is a done deal in the mind of God - which you state above - how could His disposition change? (if it's a done deal in His mind?) That's what is REALLY CONFUSING to me. Your position is very inconsistent to me... Please help! Thanks - Brandan

Becasue I believe scripture points to an exact time and place the elect were justified. I say it happened at the cross. When it was fulfilled. The eternal aspect is in the decre and also the fact it will last for eternity without end.

Regarding His disposition, I do not find loving in Christ and hating in Adam mutually exclusive. For instance, let us look at the WCF:

CHAPTER 11
Of Justification

1. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness, by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.
2. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.
3. Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified, and did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to his Father's justice in their behalf. Yet, inasmuch as he was given by the Father for them; and his obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead; and both, freely, not for anything in them; their justification is only of free grace; that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.
4. God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fullness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.
5. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified; and, although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.
6. The justification of believers under the old testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the new testament.


My only contention is # 2 I do not knwo what is meant by resting, nor do I believe Justification happens at the point of faith.


& #4. after nevertheless...

[Brandan Kraft]

Becasue I believe scripture points to an exact time and place the elect were justified. I say it happened at the cross. When it was fulfilled. The eternal aspect is in the decre and also the fact it will last for eternity without end.

I agree that justification was culminated at the cross. The work of justification was completed in time. I don't disagree. However, the disposition of GOD is eternal!

Regarding His disposition, I do not find loving in Christ and hating in Adam mutually exclusive.

Bah! That's paradox! God does not love and hate someone at the same time - it's an impossibility. THINK! THINK THINK! Is God confused?

My only contention is # 2 I do not knwo what is meant by resting, nor do I believe Justification happens at the point of faith.

There is an aspect to justification at the point of faith. It is the personal declaration of righteousness from God to that individual. It's a wonderful time of rejoicing as the Spirit awakens the individual to the truth of their justification in Christ.

There are three major aspects of justification.

1) God's eternal decree (imputation - it's immanent)

2) The Justifying Work of Christ (usually seen as "passive" obedience, but I propose it is both "active / passive" - ALL of Christ's work on Earth)

3) The Declaration of Justification to the Individual by the Holy Spirit (justification by faith alone)

[lionovjudah]

So now I am to believe that Paul wrote his epistles to the Romans and Ephesians in Hebrew? As if that was a popular language among gentiles?
The point in Greek may be semantic, but you pointed to that whether you meant to or not.
Chilton's point on the Eph. passage is incorrect, re-read 1 Cor 1-2, believers dont have to be linguistic scholars to interpret spiritual words. I am thankful for genuine brethren that have linguistic gifts, but the vast majority (of linguistic scholars) have received their credentials from the worlds religions, so for them to actually understand the meanings of what they translate is out of their natural reach.

Please do not dismiss this Whammer becasue it shows something you never thought of. It has opened my eyes to another nugget of language. I am glad God showed me this. You do this all the time, with universal texts implying a universal love. I will utylize all the help I can get from those given these gifts.

Here are more examples.

There are many examples of the prophetic perfect in the Bible, far too many to list in this appendix. Nevertheless, the following references should be sufficient to make the point that the idiom is quite common. This is especially true in prophetic utterances where God is assuring people that some future event will absolutely occur.
Genesis 6:18. In Genesis 6, God told Noah to build the ark. After telling him how to build it, the Hebrew text reads that God said, “And you have come into the ark.” The ark was not even built at that time, and when it was built God told Noah, “Go into the ark” (Gen. 7:1). The prophetic perfect in Genesis 6:18 makes it clear that Noah would absolutely enter the ark. Most English versions, not wanting to confuse the reader, read something like, “And you will enter the ark.” The YLT (Young’s Literal Translation) reads, “and thou hast come in unto the ark.”
Genesis 15:18. The Hebrew text reads, “To your descendants I have given this land.” This promise was made to Abraham before he even had any descendants to give the land to. Nevertheless, God states His promise in the past tense to emphasize the certainty of the event. The KJV, ARV (American Revised Version of 1901), YLT, and NASB all have the past tense in their versions.


Jude 14. This verse speaks of Enoch’s prophecy and literally reads, “the Lord came with ten thousands of His holy ones.” Of course, the Lord has not yet come, but his coming is so certain that the prophecy is written in the past tense. We can easily see how idioms like the “prophetic perfect” put translators in a tough position. If they translate the text literally, many Christians would be confused. If they do not, we lose a powerful vehicle for God to communicate the absolute certainty of future events.

[lionovjudah]

This is the whole crux of Faith! Faith rests soley in God alone and His promises.

Nicholas

This is true Nicholas. And His promises are tied to His decree, and His accomplishment of them

[Whammer]

Please do not dismiss this Whammer becasue it shows something you never thought of. It has opened my eyes to another nugget of language. I am glad God showed me this. You do this all the time, with universal texts implying a universal love. I will utylize all the help I can get from those given these gifts.

1 Kin 17:1-7
I am happy to be fed truth however God may bring it, but I hope I dont mistake ravens as sheep...right?

[Robert R. Higby]

The decree is one thing, the actual fulfillment is another.

If God's decree is a done deal with no possibility of unraveling--then the fulfillment of that decree is not a logical departure from the decree itself in any way. I fail to see how an argument over exact Greek tense in one Pauline passage vs. another has anything to do with the absolute validity of this truth!

So we just have to agree to disagree once more; I can see that come hell or high water LOJ is going to stand by his hatred of EJ! I'm going to check out of this discussion.

[lionovjudah]

The decree is one thing, the actual fulfillment is another.

If God's decree is a done deal with no possibility of unraveling--then the fulfillment of that decree is not a logical departure from the decree itself in any way. I fail to see how an argument over exact Greek tense in one Pauline passage vs. another has anything to do with the absolute validity of this truth!

So we just have to agree to disagree once more; I can see that come hell or high water LOJ is going to stand by his hatred of EJ! I'm going to check out of this discussion.

Bob, hatred is too harsh of a word for me feelings on it. It is not what 'LOJ' decides. The romans passage was used by you and others, and after researching the language, I found this nugget that I shared. Of course you or anyone else who hears it the first time will kick against it because it clearly denies your presupposition. When did I ever say there could be a departure from the decree? All I pointed out was the inspired word can contain a past tense becasue the faith of the prophet in the surety of its accomplishment. As I pointed out from the WCF, I can agree with most of what it says in point 4.

4. God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fullness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.

I would only change after nevertheless to say By Faith it is revealed to him.

[Robert R. Higby]

I apologize then for describing your position as 'hatred.'

I disagree with any teacher who proposes that the use of the aorist vs. the perfect can ever be used to prove or deny doctrine from a passage. If one thinks doctrine can be proved from tense instead of context--once the Greek is pursued in earnest that person will be very, very disappointed! Believe me, I once thought this for a while after taking 3 years of Greek and my cherished dreams were speedily crushed after a few encounters with cultists who knew some obvious and undeniable exceptions! The NT writers wrote to common folk using ordinary language, in the KOINE Greek past tenses were freely swapped in usage without any perceived change in meaning.

Man am I glad I'm not bound by a paycheck or a Presbyterian reputation to defend the WCF on this one! If I was I'm sure I would have to find a way to deny EJ based on the aorist!

[The Hawker]

Greetings Folks,

I have read this thread with great interest, and read the Wimer article on the subject. I agree with the position of this forum, that justification was as good as done from eternity, because as discussed, it was in the mind of God from the beginning. Why wouldn't this be?? He is God and He knows ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! HALLELUJAH!! None of this negates the requirement of the physical fulfillment of this, ie Jesus dying and being gloriously resurrected from the cross.

Both are GLORIOUSLY true!! Glory to God in the Highest!!!!

It is equally true to say the the DEVIL is a defeated foe. We know that he still roams around plodding to and fro, seeking whom he may devour, but we know that he will be cast into hell when the end comes. Isn't that something to shout about??

Shouldn't we be celebrating the fact that victory on Calvary means that no matter what nonsense is going on around us, we are assured victory through the finished work of Christ on the cross 2000+ years ago. HALLELUJAH! AMEN! BLESSED BE THE GLORIOUS NAME OF THE LORD!!

MAY THE LORD BLESS YOUR HEARTS WITH THE TRUTH OF GODS' WONDERFUL AND MARVELLOUS WORD AND HIS PRISTINE GRACE!!!!

The Lords' glorious and gracious blessings to you and yours,

Kevin.